Experienced gunslingers, please help me juggle To Hit vs Damage.


Advice


Hi everyone,

Creating a level 5 Gun Chemist, and I'm looking at +8 to hit unbuffed (3 BAB, 1 from +1 gun, 3 from dex, and 1 from Point Blank Shot).

This jumps to +10 when chugging my mutagen because of the dex increase.

For normal shots its 1d8+2 (magic gun and PBS), for Alchemical ordinance its 1d8 +3d6 +9 (Int to damage and Tiefling favored class bonus).

With all the strange options to sacrifice To Hit for more damage (Rapid Shot/Large Gun/Deadly Aim/probably many more), I'm curious about your experience: Only targeting touch attack, what is a High/OK/Low/crap To Hit bonus at LVL 5?

Rapid shot is an extra 1d8+2, a larger gun swaps the 1d8 with 2d6, Deadly Aim is +4 damage. All 3 options gives a -2 To Hit.

Which, if any, of these options would you choose? At level 5 what was your To Hit, and did you have problems shooting things?

Thank you in advance for any advice you have.


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A level 5 gunslinger is usually looking for around a +8 to hit (+5 BAB, +5 DEX, +1 Point Blank, +1 weapon enhancement, -2 Deadly Aim, -2 Rapid Shot) and d12+11 damage (+5 DEX, +4 Deadly Aim, +1 Point Blank, +1 weapon enhancement). Picking the bearded devil as my random CR5 to compare against, this gives the gunslinger an 85% chance to hit when withing touch targeting range for an expected DPR of 29.75 before crits are factored in (I'm doing this without the aid of Excel).

Your character, not being a gunslinger but rather a gun-using alchemist, has a bit more complex math. With mutagen, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim, his to-hit ends up at +7 for an 80% chance to hit. Using Alchemical Ordnance, you end up with an expected 18.4 damage between your two shots before crits plus another 4.2 from the bomb that isn't subject to critting totalling up to 22.6 DPR. This is 25% less than the pure gunslinger, but what you give up in damage you're getting back in skills and magic. Using the larger gun doesn't seem like it will result in average higher damage since you're paying for it by dropping your chance to hit by 10%.


Bench Pressing: Character Creation by the Numbers. Blue values are what you aim for, but as long as your numbers are at least orange then you're in a decent spot.

As for which of those three options deals the most damage, why don't we calculate it?

Larger Gun:
1d8 --> 2d6
1d8 Average Damage = 4.5
2d6 Average Damage = 2(3.5) = 7
Damage Increase = 7 - 4.5 = 2.5

Rapid Shot
+1d8 + 2 damage
Damage Increase = 4.5 + 2 = 6.5

Deadly Aim
Damage Increase = +4

So mathematically, Rapid Shot gives you higher damage. BUT note that you suffer more from Damage Reduction on enemies AND you'll spend more on ammunition (if your GM makes you keep track of such things). So it's up to you if you're willing to take the plunge.

Of course, Rapid Shot also opens up to more ranged feats down the line, like Manyshot, so it's probably hands down the best choice you can make.


Kaouse wrote:
Of course, Rapid Shot also opens up to more ranged feats down the line, like Manyshot, so it's probably hands down the best choice you can make.

Guns can't use manyshot.


Manyshot is bow only, right?

Thanks for doing the math on this one.
I know about the bench pressing website, but it tracks normal AC, not touch AC, so I'm trying to get a feal for how big a deal targeting touch is.

Edit: yeah, I'm expecting to keep track of ammunition costs and at 6 gold a shot for cartridges and 1 for normal bullets that will add up.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
Of course, Rapid Shot also opens up to more ranged feats down the line, like Manyshot, so it's probably hands down the best choice you can make.
Guns can't use manyshot.

With weapon mods to make a gun fit in the bow group. Manyshot looks for 'bows' and the only list of those is the weapon group so it should be possible.

Grakul: Beneficial Bandolier is your friend for this kind of character. Swift action reload allows for move and attack or allows rapid shot if you can reload as a move.


@greystone Already got one of those down on my shopping list

That item feels mandatory. At level 6 when I get rapid reloaded for free it still saves me 4 gold 9 silver per round.


Two levels of Gun Chemist will let you free action reload via RR and Paper Cartridges, with no increased misfire, plus a little more boom per day.


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Grakul wrote:
I'm trying to get a feal for how big a deal targeting touch is.

Ridiculously huge*. Well, ok, at 5th level, it's only "really big".

You see, the average touch AC for monsters is... 12. Not "12 at 5th level", 12 - that's roughly constant for all levels. At 5th level, that's already a -6 AC on average, an the gap is only getting bigger.

You're not a full BAB class, but Gun Chemist with Mutagen and Deadly Aim has an attack roll that's equal to or ahead of a Gunslinger at all levels except 11th.

*) Extreme case: Level 20 Gunslinger with pre-nerf double barrel pistols: Even with an attack roll malus of -16 (-6 Deadly Aim, -2 Rapid Sho), -4 Two-Weapon Fighting, -4 Double Barrel Pistol), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (that's a total malus of -31!) was still worth it because the accuracy was high enough. Sounds crazy? Pretty much it is.
That's what happens when a character uses full BAB, it's primary stat, and weapon bonuses to attack an AC designed to be used against 1/2 BAB characters using a secondary stat at best with very little bonuses.

graystone wrote:
With weapon mods to make a gun fit in the bow group. Manyshot looks for 'bows' and the only list of those is the weapon group so it should be possible.

It's not a bow. It's a fiream in the bows weapon group. Nowhere is there any indication that classifications are done by fighter weapon groups. "Monk weapons" are explicitly called out in the CRB to be weapons with the monk property. Unarmed strikes are explicitly not natural attacks (for non-monks), even though they are in the NA weapon group. Firearms have their onw special rules that are obviously not transferable to other ranged weapons (no noted early or advanced, for starters).

Seriously, the feat says "your first attack fires two arrows". You don't get two bullets, ever.


Thank you Derklord, that was really useful information. I might drop weapon focus and swap it with rapid shot in my current build.

Backlash,I don't see how two levels of gunchemist does that?


Ah, chemical stability discovery. The way I read it that only affects your "bombs", alchemical ordnance.

So going with tanglefoot-bomb and infusion discoveries instead.

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