Stealth shouldn’t apply, because you’re not being stealthy, you’re speaking up to cast a spell. Closed doors add a lot to the DC, though.
Also note that by a strict reading they can't use Spellcraft to identify the spell(s) being cast.
Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.
Closed doors give +5 DC to perception.
Stealth shouldn’t apply, because you’re not being stealthy, you’re speaking up to cast a spell.
This is grey territory, since the stealth skill doesn't define such a limitation. As a result it's not really clear what sorts of actions can and cannot be hidden by stealth. The only action specifically called out by the stealth skill as breaking stealth is attacking, and most spells are not attacks (if it doesn't involve a touch attack or a ranged touch attack, the spell doesn't count as an attack)
Perception checks to detect spellcasting is an area of rules ambiguity right now. It's been established that if you can see spellcasting, you can recognize it as spellcasting automatically. What sort of perception checks are required to see it, or how to adjudicate the situation when you can hear but not see it, are another matter.
If the NPC is casting spells with a verbal component, they have to speak loudly. Ironically, the DC of hearing someone speak is not defined, but the DC of hearing the details of a conversation is, and it is DC 0. That should probably also be the DC to identify that an NPC is speaking gobbledygook that might be spellcasting (spellcraft requires LoS though). That means that your NPC does not get stealth bonuses at all.
As for increases to the DC, it is simply +1 DC per 10ft distance (80ft=+8DC if I understand you right), +5 per closed door between the NPC and the party, and +10 per each foot of wall thickness. You don't get bonuses for invisibility because you don't have invisibility, just total concealment. Since this is only a couple of rooms away they are probably getting a +15DC bonus max from walls/doors if they are lucky, unless you are underground or something weird like that. As such, the DC to hear your NPC clearly is probably no more than DC23, which is easily achievable for many characters.
If the NPC is not casting spells with a verbal component, they don't have to roll separately for it.
Stealth shouldn’t apply, because you’re not being stealthy, you’re speaking up to cast a spell. Closed doors add a lot to the DC, though.
Yep: "To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice."
Second, I', not sure why you have distance twice. Do you mean 20' up and 80' feet away? If so, that's 82.462' away (+9)
thirdly, what is the "Non visible = +20"? That doesn't exist as far as I know.
So IMO it's DC 9 vs perception 36. Now as QuidEst mentioned walls/doors add to DC so a 'few rooms' could add a bit.
BretI: There's a difference between identifying the spell and hearing the casting as it's done in a "strong voice".
Dasrak: "This is grey territory": not in my opinion. The feat Conceal Spell explains hiding casting and even with it, if you fail "If there is a verbal component, they still hear your loud, clear voice but don’t notice the spell woven within."
Snowblind: Yep, I went with 0 for strong voice as it seems to be the closest to 'normal conversation'.
Dasrak: "This is grey territory": not in my opinion. The feat Conceal Spell explains hiding casting and even with it, if you fail "If there is a verbal component, they still hear your loud, clear voice but don’t notice the spell woven within."
Concealed Casting is besides the point, and addresses the identification of the spell and not the perception of it.
The Stealth skill is about hiding things that can normally be detected easily. If an elephant can attempt to use stealth to hide behind a lamp post, why can't a wizard use stealth to conceal something he said clearly? I can tell I'm in the minority here, but that's my view on stealth: the entire purpose of the skill is concealing stuff that normally is plainly detectable.
I can tell I'm in the minority here, but that's my view on stealth: the entire purpose of the skill is concealing stuff that normally is plainly detectable.
My view of stealth is that you have to be TRYING to be stealthy to roll. It's oxymoronic to try to claim I'm stealthily making sounds in a "loud, clear voice": the opposite of trying to avoid being noticed.
PS: Concealed Casting points out that your voice is heard no matter trying to hide the spell: more mundane tactics shouldn't work better than that.
Elephants can’t stealth behind lampposts either- no cover or concealment.
Elephants can’t stealth behind lampposts either- no cover or concealment.
But can I hide a singing bard behind the elephant and have everyone not notice he's singing? ;)
BretI: There's a difference between identifying the spell and hearing the casting as it's done in a "strong voice".
I completely agree.
I am also anticipating that if they hear the spellcasting, the next thing the players will want to know is which spells. I was pointing out that they will not be able to do that even if they hear the spellcasters.
That rule frequently is ignored.
BretI: There's a difference between identifying the spell and hearing the casting as it's done in a "strong voice".I completely agree.
I am also anticipating that if they hear the spellcasting, the next thing the players will want to know is which spells. I was pointing out that they will not be able to do that even if they hear the spellcasters.
That rule frequently is ignored.
Ah, okie dokie then: I didn't make that jump [no sight] so I wasn't assuming the follow-up player question. For me, I can't recall the last time I've seen someone ignore the sight rule.
EDIT: Actually, I DO recall one time, but it was built into the module [dc to notice spellcasting chant, though none to ID spell].
Well, they don't really need to cite that - the DC is always Spellcraft DC [15 + Spell Level]. ^^
I was pointing out that that the module followed the rules [no id without sight], so no id dc was correct as spell casting was over before line of sight happened. What the module DID do is use a grey area: identifying the act of spellcasting, not identifying an individual spell.
PS: Concealed Casting points out that your voice is heard no matter trying to hide the spell: more mundane tactics shouldn't work better than that.
Not quite:
Since you are concealing the spell’s manifestation through other actions, others observing you realize you’re doing something, even if they don’t realize you’re casting a spell. If there is a verbal component, they still hear your loud, clear voice but don’t notice the spell woven within.
The text there applies only to those observing you. If you have successfully used stealth, then you are not being observed. There is a difference between concealing an action while being observed, and taking an action while not being observed. The Concealed Spell feat applies to the former case, while Stealth (arguably) applies to the latter case. Even if you disagree whether Stealth should work, it should at least be agreeable that this approach is mechanically and conceptually distinct from what Concealed Spell is doing.
Elephants can’t stealth behind lampposts either- no cover or concealment.
Maybe I shouldn't have used such a flamboyant example. The point is, whatever the absolute minimum required to give partial cover to the elephant is sufficient to make a stealth check. Maybe you don't agree a lamp post qualifies, so just substitute whatever the smallest type of barrier or object that would provide partial cover. The point is, if you have the stealth score for it you can do some pretty ridiculous stuff with stealth (which I'm okay with since this is a game of epic fantasy and not a realistic simulation)
Well, they don't really need to cite that - the DC is always Spellcraft DC [15 + Spell Level].
Any modifier that would affect perception also applies to spellcraft checks to identify a spell, so you take penalties based on things like distance or poor conditions.
But can I hide a singing bard behind the elephant and have everyone not notice he's singing? ;)
If we're playing devil's advocate, how about I offer a third interpretation: would you be able to tell that someone is singing without knowing who and where it's coming from?
The text there applies only to those observing you.
Yes, anyone that can see, hear, smell, ect you. So it makes TOTAL sense to make a perception roll to notice the sounds, sights and scents you create. We already know you HAVE to loudly speak, so we already skip stealth and go to detection...
If you have successfully used stealth, then you are not being observed.
Observed: "notice or perceive (something) and register it as being significant." Noticing someone speaking automatically requires noticing: loud speaking breaks stealth.Nothing you're doing in stealth helps negate the loud noises you MUST make or stop loud noises from being noticable.
would you be able to tell that someone is singing without knowing who and where it's coming from?...
Meaningless. We're talking about a situation where we're determining if 'speaking loudly' can be heard. We aren't talking about pinpointing a singing invisible creature but talking about hearing the singing at all. The ability to hide the source of a noise doesn't make it harder to HEAR the noise. Hiding in a shadow doesn't muffle sound.
We already know you HAVE to loudly speak, so we already skip stealth and go to detection...
And therein is the disagreement, as to whether stealth can be used to prevent others from observing a loud sound.
Nothing you're doing in stealth helps negate the loud noises you MUST make or stop loud noises from being noticable.
That's exactly what the stealth skill does: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. We're arguing in circles at this point. You hold that a loud noise is inherently noticeable and thus cannot be concealed by stealth, while I hold that the very function of stealth is conceal what is otherwise noticeable.
I accept that pretty much everyone disagrees with me on this, so I won't argue that any further.
Meaningless
That wasn't at all meant to be relevant to my earlier argument, just a devil's advocate consideration. I do find it legitimately interesting since the boundaries of what is possible with stealth are ill-defined.
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If they hear you then you can not make the stealth check.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.
If you muffle the voice then it's no longer a strong voice. So either you are making a loud noise are you aren't. If you are using a strong voice they hear you so you are not using stealth.
If you aren't speaking in a strong voice then you are not casting the spell.
You can't whisper in a strong voice.
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And therein is the disagreement, as to whether stealth can be used to prevent others from observing a loud sound.
You MUST use a loud voice: full stop. Nothing in stealth suggests that the skill alters reality in any way to reduce observable phenomena. You're in a snow field in black clothes: You have a variety of ways to cover those clothes from sight, but it doesn't change those clothes white.
You COULD hide the sound with bigger/louder/ more observable sound, but I see no way to minimize the sound itself as it's at a set volume: loud.SO You can't make a bomb explosion sound like dropped spoon but you could hide it by timing it to happen during a lightning bolt's thunder. I'm assuming that the OP isn't planning in making it EASIER to find the caster by making enough sound to drown out the sound of casting.