Two rapiers with the agile weapon enchantment or Unchained rogue level 3 gives you dex to damage that can be used with two weapon fighting.
To use a one handed weapon other than a rapier you can take the fighter advanced weapon trading to let you use a weapon group with weapon finesse.
Two rapiers with the agile weapon enchantment or Unchained rogue level 3 gives you dex to damage that can be used with two weapon fighting.
To use a one handed weapon other than a rapier you can take the fighter advanced weapon trading to let you use a weapon group with weapon finesse.
Or use Sawtooth Sabers
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For longswords or battleaxes you could use Swashbuckler Finesse, Slashing Grace, and Two-Weapon Grace (along with their prerequisites of Weapon Focus and Two-Weapon Fighting). You are going to take a lot of attack roll penalties though.
I would think a mix of unchained Rogue and fighter with the advanced weapon training.
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Only three ways are laid out above:
1) Agile Weapons
2) Three levels of Unchained Rogue.
3) Two Weapon Grace.
There are other ways to TWF effectively with finesse weapons, but they rely on static bonuses (like trained/lethal grace) rather than getting dex-to-damage.
Note that if you want to grab Piranha Strike, it won't work unless your weapon actually IS a light weapon.
(2nd note: Effortless Lace is not PFS-legal, and that's a good thing because it is OP as F, at least in the context of superdex martials drooling to TWF falcatas with Piranha Strike.)
I hate effortless lace with passion - it's a GM's catch 22.
If you don't take advantage of the giant sign that says "sunder pls thx", then you're letting them pass without the backside at all.
If you do though, you're screwing with your pc's build in an arguably unfair way.
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(2nd note: Effortless Lace is not PFS-legal, and that's a good thing because it is OP as F, at least in the context of superdex martials drooling to TWF falcatas with Piranha Strike.)
Which is odd, because I've never seen people bragging/complaining about the damage that dual-wielding martial characters are doing, particularly compared to two-handed characters. Heck, an effortless lace probably helps a power-attacking two-handed character wield a large-sized Falcata more than it helps some dual-wielding dex-monkey.
I actually really like Effortless Lace. It allows for really specific character concepts without really overpowering anything. A few extra points of damage isn't that big of a deal, particularly for a couple thousand gold.
Contributor
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Heck, an effortless lace probably helps a power-attacking two-handed character wield a large-sized Falcata more than it helps some dual-wielding dex-monkey.
I believe that this is the reason for the PFS ban.
I actually really like Effortless Lace. It allows for really specific character concepts without really overpowering anything. A few extra points of damage isn't that big of a deal, particularly for a couple thousand gold.
Agreed. Sometimes you just want to wield a katana with Weapon Finesse.
(2nd note: Effortless Lace is not PFS-legal, and that's a good thing because it is OP as F, at least in the context of superdex martials drooling to TWF falcatas with Piranha Strike.)Which is odd, because I've never seen people bragging/complaining about the damage that dual-wielding martial characters are doing, particularly compared to two-handed characters. Heck, an effortless lace probably helps a power-attacking two-handed character wield a large-sized Falcata more than it helps some dual-wielding dex-monkey.
Hmm..... +2/+1 att/dmg to 2hPA a large falcata isn't that much of a pick up compared to a TWF upgrading his pair of d6/(crit)x2 shortswords to normal-sized d8/(crit)x3 falcatas that are now light and of which Piranha Strike now works with.
The 2hPA brute could already use a large falcata, albeit at the usual oversized weapon penalty, whereas the TWF sees the entire roster of one-handed weapons become light with Effortless Lace. The TWF can minmax dex to insanity while dual-wielding the best full-attack melee weapon in the game. Dip a dex-rage class, three or four uRogue levels, then cavalier to really run up the numeric bonuses.
Is the -2 (i.e. 10% point expected hit penalty, translating to larger than -10% overall damage output in the majority of cases) of oversized falcatas really worth the +2.5 expected damage per hit of 2d6 vs 1d8, even working in crit damage increase?
I don't think oversized falcatas are ever really worth it if you do the numbers, the damage increase is just too miniscule.
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Is the -2 (i.e. 10% point expected hit penalty, translating to larger than -10% overall damage output in the majority of cases) of oversized falcatas really worth the +2.5 expected damage per hit of 2d6 vs 1d8, even working in crit damage increase?
I don't think oversized falcatas are ever really worth it if you do the numbers, the damage increase is just too miniscule.
Agreed, but if you grab an effortless lace, 2.5 damage for 2.5k isn't that bad of a tradeoff. Plus, that damage means more given the crit range of the weapon.
@Slim Jim: Oh, I'm not saying that dual-wielders don't benefit a fair bit, but dual-wielding is generally considered one of the weakest combat styles, because you need access to Pounce in some form in addition to, typically, either being a MAD character between Dex and Str, or having to take levels in a class which doesn't take advantage of a Falcata's crit range (Rogue, for example, reduces your BAB, and provides a situational bonus damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). The access is nice, but it costs a feat in a feat-hungry fighting style, a very specific weapon type, and I'm almost certain that, if you do the math, it still won't match up to a two-handed character, which means it really doesn't matter if Effortless Lace is a big upgrade for two-weapon fighters.
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@Slim Jim: Oh, I'm not saying that dual-wielders don't benefit a fair bit, but dual-wielding is generally considered one of the weakest combat styles, because you need access to Pounce in some form in addition to...
I played a TWF wakizashi samurai/urban-rager in the bad-old-days (before uRogue), and he was an unholy murder-machine through the really nasty early PFS seasons. (Getting a +1 elevation bonus sitting on a horse was gravy, as well as increasing your reach due to the mount being a 2x2 box.) He was capable of solo'ing about 80% of encounters.
...whether it breaks down into suboptimal at 15th-level (or whenever)...who cares? He's a martial build anyway, made to haul ass at low level where all the play opportunities are.
And a brief word about Pounce; it's an add-on to a charge, and there have been a steadily-accumulating number of ways to bust those as the years have rolled by. If GMs don't take advantage of them to prevent Pounce PCs from cake-walking, that's their decision. Just giving their NPCs brace polearms and Pushing Assault would stymie a lot of face-chewer tactics. But I digress....
, typically, either being a MAD character between Dex and Str, or having to take levels in a class which doesn't take advantage of a Falcata's crit range (Rogue, for example, reduces your BAB, and provides a situational bonus damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). The access is nice, but it costs a feat in a feat-hungry fighting style, a very specific weapon type, and I'm almost certain that, if you do the math, it still won't match up to a two-handed character, which means it really doesn't matter if Effortless Lace is a big upgrade for two-weapon fighters.
Nah; it's easy:
halfling 20pt
str 10
dex 19
con 14
int 12
wis 12
cha 14
alternative racial trait: Fleet of Foot [move:30]
characters traits: Berserker of the Society, Dangerously Curious
1. Barbarian1 [move40][sav-tech] Extra Rage
2. uRogue1 [Weapon Finesse][SA+1d6]
3. uRogue2 [combat trick: TWF][SA+2d6], Accomplished Sneak Attacker
4. uRogue3 [Finesse(Falcata)], Dex>20
5. Fighter1 [SA+3d6][Piranha Strike], Risky Striker
6. Cavalier1 (angling toward Vambraces of the Tactician and Champion's Banner)
7. Fighter2 [Improved TWF], FEAT(general)
8. Cavalier2, etc...
....a cracked Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone is only 1500gp and grants weapon familiarity (treated as martial) with whatever you want. The barb level grants you martial right away, so you're kosher the moment you have the money.
Tactics: UMD 25gp scroll of Long Arm and go in all noodly like Luffy.
In PFS (where Effortless Lace is banned), this build would take wakizashi as the uR3 and ioun weapon. In a home game where retraining rules are allowed, we might start with waks and wait awhile for cash to pile up (prioritizing dex belt before 2x lace, then switch over after a fat campaign reward.)
Attack at 5th:
4 BAB
5 dex
2 rage
1 masterwork
= +12
2 flanking
-2 piranha
-2 TWF
Ideal situation is flanking with all goodies turned on for +10/+10 base before buffs, belts, or pale-greens. (Even more ideally, our allys have softened the target up by tripping or colorspraying it, and I'm "The finisher".)
Damage at 5th:
d4 or d6 (small wakizashi or falcata)
5 stat
2 rage
4 piranha
4 risky
3d6 sneak
...with that set-up, we're looking at 15pts in raw numerical bonus already at 5th; getting a x3 crit off a falcata in those circumstances is probably a one-shot kill versus any non-boss Tier6 opponent. Two levels later at 7th, we double the number of attacks to four and are looking at two Challengers per day with +8 more numerical damage with the banner and the vambraces. +3 more off +1/Furious for north of +25 numerical by then. Boon Companion in the open general slot at 7th pumps up a wolf that I'd use as a flank/trip-buddy (and no reason I couldn't do this as early as 3rd by shunting down the first Cav level depending on my fun priorities).
My old cake-walking samurai would lose fast to this halfling; hell, I could only barely outrun him on my horse to get away.
Late edit: +1 all attacks (from size small)
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1) I did say "Typically". You seem a fairly decent optimizer, though I'm always skeptical of a character concept that involves more than 2 classes without prestige classing. That being said, unless you have a very specific character concept in mind involving lots of multi-classing, it makes the whole thing work less well. Again, that's why I said "Typically".
2) The above character sure is strong... but he's mostly strong 15 rounds a day (which may or may not be useful, depending on the frequency of encounters in your campaign), and flanking, and full-attacking. Nobody is claiming that two-weapon fighting deals poor damage on a full attack, but the issue is that two-weapon fighting only really deals good damage on a full attack, which is why I mentioned Pounce (or some other ability that allows mobility on a full attack). If one of the above conditions isn't met, his damage drops a fair bit on average, and if two or more aren't met, it drops off more.
To be fair, his damage is still perfectly fine, but if he's not flanking, he suddenly loses 2 attack and 3d6(10.5) damage... not to mention 4 additional damage if the target is Medium or smaller. Now, if you have a group of players dedicated to making him work, then great!
It's just a lot of effort to go through to make a martial character that's a powerful two-weapon fighter at low levels when there are simpler, easier options.
I'm always skeptical of a character concept that involves more than 2 classes without prestige classing.I'm less enamored of prestige classes than I am of core class archetypes. PRCs are, with a few exceptions, underpowered 3E-vintage curios loaded with annoying feat and skill ranks requirements, feature poor save advancement, and are often stingy/taxy at 1st level. Dipping another real class, otoh, is painless and confers front-loaded benefits.
if he's not flanking, he suddenly loses 2 attack and 3d6(10.5) damage... not to mention 4 additional damage if the target is Medium or smaller.
Boon Companion at 7th would come online at the exact moment that the number of attacks doubles from two to four. On a wolf and with Long Arm, that's basically equivalent to 60' of movement per round, plenty to get into flanking if that's the goal. (The sneak damage is really only gravy once Improved Critical is picked up at 9th.)
There's also the Monk [Sohei:(feat:Mounted Skirmisher)] trick for +2 to all saves as well as the world's easiest pseudo-Pounce mechanism.
It's just a lot of effort to go through to make a martial character that's a powerful two-weapon fighter at low levels when there are simpler, easier options.
For me, it's all about having tons of flexibility. For instance, I'm getting a rogue's nearly-full bag of tricks (short of Advanced Talents) added to a full martial package.
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Alternative level progression of the build in last post:
1. Barbarian1 [savage technologist/drunken brute] Extra Rage
2. uRogue1 [Weapon Finesse][SA+1d6]
3. Cavalier1 [Emissary:Mounted Combat][Order of the Hero], Boon Companion
4. uRogue2 [Evasion][combat trick: TWF], Dex>20
5. fighter1 [SA+2d6][Piranha Strike], Accomplished Sneak Attacker
6. uRogue3 [SA+2d6][Finesse(Falcata or Wakizashi)]
7. Fighter2 [Improved TWF], FEAT(--Risky Striker?)
8. Cavalier2, etc...
- More mount-oriented (which is why Drunken Brute archetype is stacked in) and takes a cavalier archetype which protects it.
- rogues levels staggered so as to not waste skill points elevating less-needed skills.
- Risky Striker bumped farther down the chain for when opponents are most likely to be large-sized.
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Allow me to clarify: A character with levels in 4 different classes seems, for all practical purposes, to be a character whose classes don't actually matter from a character perspective. I feel like class ought to matter somewhat from a narrative perspective, but with this guy classes are more like feature packages.
To each group their own, though. It just rubs me the wrong way. As I said, it's a fine optimized martial concept, but it has a particularly cheesy aroma about it which irks me, and would irk me as a DM, which is actually hard to do.
Also, I'm not necessarily advocating prestige classing, but rather noting that taking multiple classes as part of prestige classing is kind of point, so I don't necessarily mind goal-oriented multiclassing for that purpose, particularly because it can, and ought to be, narrative.
As I said, it's a fine optimized martial concept, but it has a particularly cheesy aroma about it which irks me...
Compared to the rules-lawyer wizard Simulacrum'ing around in demon-form, or some high-lever brawler adjusting multiple feats on the fly (and every book that comes out doles a bunch of new junk they can automatically yoink), does a low-level multiclass martial irk you that much?
At least the TWF build is "sporting" from a GM's perspective: it ends up next to your monsters and lets you unload their full-attacks. A Ride-by/Spirited Charge build just runs back and forth, and your poor monster only gets a move-and-attack.
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Thematically, I don't want to play a "Slayer" (what a stupid name for a class; it's like it's tailored for the types that used to build Drizzits) or a Brawler or a Warpriest or a Vigilante even though they're very good, and arguably even more powerful (especially in the case of Warpriest). A call my guy a "barbarian" who's picked up some thieving ways. Everybody understands that immediately, and also knows that the core CRB martials are a little underpowered compared to the new splats.
I might have missed something but this looks like a 26 point buy to me:
halfling 20pt
str 10 2
dex 19 13
con 14 5
int 12 2
wis 12 2
cha 14 2
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I hate effortless lace with passion - it's a GM's catch 22.
If you don't take advantage of the giant sign that says "sunder pls thx", then you're letting them pass without the backside at all.
If you do though, you're screwing with your pc's build in an arguably unfair way.
Why would you sunder a one-handed weapon that has the lace, and not sunder a weapon that's normally a light weapon especially when an actual light weapon is easier to sunder?
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I hate effortless lace with passion - it's a GM's catch 22.
If you don't take advantage of the giant sign that says "sunder pls thx", then you're letting them pass without the backside at all.
If you do though, you're screwing with your pc's build in an arguably unfair way.
Why would you sunder a one-handed weapon that has the lace, and not sunder a weapon that's normally a light weapon especially when an actual light weapon is easier to sunder?
I think he was referring to sundering the lace itself.
@Slim Jim: A brawler is one class, and adjusting feats isn't terribly strange. The wizard thing? Yeah, that does some weird to me. But then, my players don't do that kind of stuff, so it's not really a problem.
Also, the above character? He's not just a barbarian who picked up some thieving skills. He's also a trained warrior, and also a knight specifically dedicated to defending a single area. It sounds like a weird backstory for an elderly Halfling NPC who's kinda the town hero, but for a player character his classes don't seem to make sense.
But then, it's not really a big deal. It's just a personal preference thing on my part. If your group is fine with stuff like that, that's cool.
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The question still remains. Light weapons aren't hard to sunder. GM's just dont do it for the sake of fun. The same idea applies to spell component pouches, and holy symbols as well.
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The question still remains. Light weapons aren't hard to sunder. GM's just dont do it for the sake of fun. The same idea applies to spell component pouches, and holy symbols as well.
There is also the fact that it's just a terrible tactic from a logic standpoint: you're destroying your loot. If you don't care about loot you most times don't sunder. Sunder is truly only only visible when the weapon is improvised or poor quality.