Hi all,
I'm thinking on building a manipulative evil player character. Perhaps some may lend their advice.
We're in a campaign, where the others are 2 Paladins (1 melee, 1 range) and 1 Cleric (ranged) (You can guess the alignment for them). What I thought about, is making an evil character (Not required to be chaotic-evil, but quite low on the scale of goodyness).
The main idea is, that I want to be a guy, who is quite likable by the group and very friendly. In presence of them, I act real good an majority of the time (Except when info needs to be forced out from NPC somehow, but never in front of the "good people"). I'd have a goal like to kill a main person somewhere (but the target is not like the main plot driven character, as that would ruin the GM world, I will settle with a neighboring Kingdom- perhaps the King to become the new King). All depends how I talk with the GM, little of importance here.
So, basically I want to be a evil guy in disguise in the middle of a bunch of good guys. Play facade that I'm a good (or neutral) person also. But after quite some games (not 1-5, but a very long target), when we finally achieve my goal, I shall reveal my true intentions. Kind of using them to achieve my goal (but not per say convert them evil- as my goal is not to kill them, rather just use them. While still helping them). I would not want to reveal my alignment or intentions before- just have to act cool and good.
I searched some info. Right now, the start is level 5 (but I want to also scheme ahead). In that group, I found very useful a spell Undetectable Alignment. Because if those guys can detect evil, I better hide it well (I know there is also a ring, but it cost a lot of gold). From there, the Bard seems to be quickest to cast it. And it won't be sad to waste 1xlvl1 spell every day. Also he has the most skill points, so I can focus on bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, stealth and so on. The idea is to become the info gatherer and sneaky person of the group (Hard for them to sneak in those bulky metal shells).
From Bard, I stumbled upon the Archetype Negotiator. Would allow take 10 on skills and rogue talents. But big drawback is losing Inspire Courage, which is really good for a party.
But I'm not sure, if just going full on into Bard Negotiator is a good idea. As right now, I know one of the Paladins has Diplomacy 12 (Ofcourse he is an Aasimar also- GM little nerfed him).
We have to roll stats, so I can't think that ahead, but again- ideas are welcome where to focus most (and feats). Possible one feat is Weapon Finesse (Combat)
Has anyone got such experience or ideas, how execute this in the best and evil way?
(If info needed on the good guys, I have more, just ask)
Negotiator bard isn't great in a fight. Take a look at the mesmerist class (any archetype), or other bard archetypes - archaeologist, brazen deceiver, court fool or fey prankster all have advantages for a bard who wants to be a rogue. A bold schemer skald might fit as well.
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I'm seconding Mesmerist. Maybe have a look at the Vizir archetype, though that would mostly be for flavor - the regular Consummate Liar benefit of +1/2 Levels to Bluff is better if you "just" want to lie and not throw mind control at party members.
Try Wit archetype bard. Will scoff at opponents.
It will more or less come down to how you roleplay your character at the table, and how everyone else roleplays their own.
Heck, you can just write Neutral on your character sheet and play their slow descent into evil over the course of the game. It'll save you a lot of trouble and potential PvP conflict in the long run.
As someone who's written pages and pages of backstory for many of my own characters, I can testify that in most cases the other people at the table simply don't give a rat's ass. They're too busy doing their own thing with their character to bother paying attention to what you're doing, at least until it's time to split the loot.
In any case, charisma based classes play well into this theme if you're planning this route, but you can really pull it off with any class you wanted to play. A Mesmerist is an interesting choice here, since they get a bonus to their Bluff skill equal to half their class level, and there's a bunch of archetypes like the Hate-Monger or Vizier that are built for evil characters, or the Thought Eater archetype that lets you duplicate other alignments. Plus they get Undetectable Alignment as a first level spell too.
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I would also check mesmerist, the class has many tricks to bluff, sneak or disguise your way into social acceptance. It's may more debuff focused than bard.
I see a lot recommended this. I'll take a deep look into this character.
Heck, you can just write Neutral on your character sheet and play their slow descent into evil over the course of the game. It'll save you a lot of trouble and potential PvP conflict in the long run.
The sinking into madness and evil is a good story driver, which I definitely will try at one point. But this character I want to try to make him come with the sole purpose of somewhat using the players to achieve his goal.
Ofcourse my goal is not to kill the players. Nor is to make them feel bad for helping me. So it's kind of balancing of using them, making perhaps in-game characters mad, but out-game still amusing and fun. To aim them to gasp once the veil is lifted.As someone who's written pages and pages of backstory for many of my own characters, I can testify that in most cases the other people at the table simply don't give a rat's ass. They're too busy doing their own thing with their character to bother paying attention to what you're doing, at least until it's time to split the loot.
I'm not afraid of my alignment coming out out-game. We usually don't peek at our character sheets. So as not to meta-game and only one having an overview of us is the GM. I can always leave it empty in case of doubt. Problem is that our players somewhat listen quietly what is happening and from time to time, some specific people accidentally start metagaming or suspecting. And I want to avoid doubt, so they would trust me as I would be a real good guy (Even out game).
But all in all, I totally agree. Especially on the loot part.Try Wit archetype bard. Will scoff at opponents.
I did check on it. In overall good, but seemed to be rather slow. Then again, it's a choice.
Maybe have a look at the Vizir archetype, though that would mostly be for flavor - the regular Consummate Liar benefit of +1/2 Levels to Bluff is better if you "just" want to lie and not throw mind control at party members.
Totally cool Archetype. But I'm worried if I want to manipulate a player, it gets too obvious. To play off that my words are quite compelling is too giving away. Though we in-game will do as a character would, I would like to keep my inner-evil an ultimate surprise, so to say. Possibility is to use it on NPC without PC knowing.
In all and all, it seems I have once more gained knowledge and must be thankful for You all. Mesmerist seems to be a class that slipped my sight and I will look into him.
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I am going to throw my vote behind the Mesmerist as well. I would also make the suggestion to not have your alignment be evil, since the first time one of the paladins in the party uses their detect evil ability, you are hosed.
I would say Chaotic Neutral...you are out for your own interests, and will break the law/do whatever is necessary to get what is best for you...even if that means working with a team of boy scouts.
You can either play the Mesmerist as a mind controller/debuff caster type, or more of a melee type with limited spells...the class plays kind of similarly to a bard.
I am a big fan of the caster focused variety...play a Kitsune, make Cha your primary stat and Dex your second...focus on getting your Enchantment DCs as high as possible (Always use your stare on someone before casting on them, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Max Cha, etc)...max all your social/face skills.
If you are a bard, there is one feat that lets you use performance to disguise your spells. There are other ways though. I believe one such feat is called secret signs. The Razmiran priest prestige class has a different feat as a prerequisite.
Mesmerist gets a decent 6+Int skillpoints, high Charisma due to Charisma-based casting, half its class level as a bonus to bluff, and stares, one of which gives people penalties on sense motive. The mesmerist out-lies the rogue without even trying.
If they do try, they get lie-buffing spells that affect them, not their targets, so immunity to mind-affecting still doesn't apply.
Also, the Mask of Stony Demeanour was errata'ed ages ago. It costs 8000 gold now.
I am going to throw my vote behind the Mesmerist as well. I would also make the suggestion to not have your alignment be evil, since the first time one of the paladins in the party uses their detect evil ability, you are hosed.
I have thought about that. But then again, I could just keep using the Undetectable Alignment every morning (When they cannot see). Then again, I know that alignment does not put 100% into stone, what You should do and act. Rather some more vague identification.
You can either play the Mesmerist as a mind controller/debuff caster type, or more of a melee type with limited spells...the class plays kind of similarly to a bard.
I am a big fan of the caster focused variety...play a Kitsune, make Cha your primary stat and Dex your second...focus on getting your Enchantment DCs as high as possible (Always use your stare on someone before casting on them, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Max Cha, etc)...max all your social/face skills.
I also fancy a more caster character. But what would be great spells or stares for a Mesmerist? There are quite a few spells and such, but it did seem a bit limited in overall (below average), or it could just be me.
But from what I understood, Mesmerist can stare as much as he want and use his debuffs (Bold stare, for example) as many times per day as he wants, and I should focus and depend on that mostly- correct me, if I'm mistaken.It's worthwhile to at least dip into some kind of Rogue or Ninja so you can get those Talents. I played an Arcane Trickster once and found he was superb at doing all kinds of Roguish non-combat stuff.
True, Rogues do have some nasty talents that would be of use. But I'm not so sure about multiclassing things.
One thing that also concerns me is damage. Basically, I cannot always cast spells every encounter, so I should also keep a trusty blade or bow nearby. How should I approach this?
For RP purpose, I thought about the Sword Cane. It's fun to play out, but I'd also want to keep my AC and damage up, while in an encounter.
Or does someone see a much more clever way, other than just regular weapons?
At 5th level your mesmerist can use painful stare to add 1d6+2 damage to one attack per round. You could add this to your sword cane attack - since there's no reason for a psychic caster to use only one hand, you might as well carry a darkwood shield in your off hand.
Alternately you could get proficiency in some other weapon by a trait or feat. A gun might be the most reliable attack to add that 1d6+2 damage to since they make touch attacks within the first range increment.
For spells, with mental potency color spray is still useful to a mesmerist at 5th level. It will soon become obsolete though. For other attack/debuff spells you might look at grease or ill omen (1st level) and blistering invective, castigate, oneiric horror or suggestion (2nd level). Obviously you won't take all of those but those are worth looking at IMO.
On spells which aren't offensive you've said you want undetectable alignment. You'll probably want either invisibility or vanish because those are so useful when you need to sneak past someone where there's no cover. Mirror image is an excellent defence spell which you can get. Placebo effect is a spell you'll want some time because psychic casters can be shut down by many conditions, but maybe not at 5th level. Charm person, disguise self, implant urge and memory lapse may all be useful to a manipulator.
And you do not want to make inquisitor of Norgorber? Infiltrator archetype. This would explain the behavior of your character.
And you do not want to make inquisitor of Norgorber? Infiltrator archetype. This would explain the behavior of your character.
I do believe the mesmerist will serve my purpose more with the story I have thought for him. But to know this...this is great. I can also use this in the future if required. As this guy seems to be able to navigate alignments pretty well.
You'll probably want either invisibility or vanish because those are so useful when you need to sneak past someone where there's no cover. Mirror image is an excellent defence spell which you can get.
Those are indeed spells I would aim towards and are useful in a lot of situations. In general, the best spells I know are invisibility and fly (Once my sorcerer halfling just flew over the enemy town while invisible- enemy, who had the town well guarded and really, REALLY hated magic. I had to get to the other side, down a cliff).
But all the ideas You gave, are good to know and consider!
First and foremost, a disclaimer: I play(ed*) an original ("chained") Summoner next to a fighter, and got overshadowed. Don't ask me how to optimize - I get distracted by the shiny. (It's okay, everyone is having fun.)
I also fancy a more caster character. But what would be great spells or stares for a Mesmerist? There are quite a few spells and such, but it did seem a bit limited in overall (below average), or it could just be me.
But from what I understood, Mesmerist can stare as much as he want and use his debuffs (Bold stare, for example) as many times per day as he wants, and I should focus and depend on that mostly- correct me, if I'm mistaken.
When it comes to spells, mesmerists are pretty much stuck in their niche, which is mind-affecting, illusions, and debuffs. I've seen people describe it as an anti-bard.
When it comes to stares, this character needs Susceptibility: Penalty on Sense Motive, and it helps with Diplomancing and Intimidating the target. That fits the concept way to good to pass up.
Disorientation and Timidity can deeply hurt an enemies damage output.
If you're routinely dealing with constructs, undead, vermin, and other stuff you couldn't usually affect, you need Psychic Inception.
For tricks, Compel Alacrity is always useful, because there are many characters (including, most likely, you) that would like non-AoO movement when they start their turn next to an enemy.
Mesmeric Mirror is a lesser Mirror Image, so always good.
I personally also like Fearsome Guise, since it gives you a long-term Disguise Self spell (the free action Intimidate on attack is just a bonus).
For Masterfull Tricks, Willful Ignorance isn't usually the most important one, but fitting for this character.
But all in all, don't ask me, ask the guide. It probably gives better advice than I would (see disclaimer above).
So yeah, don't ask me how to optimize. I switch to the nerf class and get better in the process.
Not so much a feat or a class, but an overlooked skill use.
You can combine Diplomacy and Bluff together to make someone think they came up with an idea you implanted. So you could lead someone else to suggest the idea you want to see implemented, and make them honestly think that it was their own idea in the first place.
Pull the strings on your puppets without them realizing they have strings attached in the first place.
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Most of the best Mesmerist spells are 'de-buff's or 'save or suck' spells. Pair those up with a handful of illusion spells and even if you aren't dealing damage, you are still being useful in other ways.
This is a Kitsune Mesmerist I designed for PFS play, feel free to use it if you like, or base your own build off of it.
Class: Mesmerist
Race: Kitsune
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Faction: Dark Archive
Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 19
All stat level ups to Cha
Traits: Power of Suggestion, Two-World Magic: Acid Splash
Spells:
0: Acid Splash, Daze, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic
1: Charm Person, Command, Grease, Hideous Laughter, Silent Image, Sleep
2: Hold Person, Inflict Pain, Invisibility, Minor Image, Tongues
3: Charm Monster, Confusion, Jester's Jaunt, Major Image
4: Dominate Person, Greater Invisibility, Mindwipe, Modify Memory
1. Consummate Liar, Hypnotic Stare (-2), Painful Stare
Mesmerist Trick: Compel Alacrity
Feat: Realistic Likeness
2. Towering Ego
Mesmerist Trick: Mesmeric Mirror
3. Touch Treatment (Minor)
Bold Stare: Psychic Inception
Feat: Spell Focus: Enchantment
4. Mesmerist Trick: False Flanker
5. Manifold Tricks (2), Mental Potency (+1)
Feat: Fox Shape
6. Touch Treatment (Moderate)
Mesmerist Trick: Mask Misery
7. Bold Stare: Disorientation
Feat: Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
8. Hypnotic Stare (–3)
Mesmerist Trick: Spectral Smoke
9. Manifold Tricks (3),
Feat: Improved Initiative
10. Touch Treatment (Greater), Mental Potency (+2)
Mesmerist Trick: Fearsome Guise
11. Glib Lie
Bold Stare: Sapped Magic
Feat: Extend Stare
12. Masterful Trick: Mental Fallback
Mesmerist Trick: Meek Facade
Manipulation screams Kitsune Fae bloodline sorcerer to me. Everyone is your friend!
Are any of the Archetypes worth it, or is it like in case of Paladin, that the best (strongest) is the main class without changes?
You can combine Diplomacy and Bluff together to make someone think they came up with an idea you implanted. So you could lead someone else to suggest the idea you want to see implemented, and make them honestly think that it was their own idea in the first place.
Pull the strings on your puppets without them realizing they have strings attached in the first place.
Could You clarify it a bit, by what You mean by this?
fyi, the feat Conceal Aura might be worth checking out. At 5th lvl you won't be detectable as evil.