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Here's what I am looking at under Incorporeal:
"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own."
If a wall of some kind (stone, iron, ice - a solid wall) was created against the wall an incorporeal creature was hiding in - what happens?
Is the incorporeal creature "stuck" in the now much thicker wall because it no longer adjacent to the object's exterior? Or is it forced out? Can you entomb a ghost under these circumstances?
You missed the
An incorporeal creature has no physical body.
Good luck, here is my GM argument.
For a creature with no physical substance, there is essentially an infinite amount of space between the created wall and the solid object they were hiding in, as it is not the same actual object. They could enter that space and still move between those objects, and it could put itself into the new wall if it wanted to (unless force, etc.)
The real situation here would be if an incorporeal creature was hiding in a stone wall and a player came along and cast stone shape to made the stone wall thicker on the edges. In this case it is the same object that it was hiding in and should be subject to the Incorporality rule. So, could you entomb it in this case? Or what happens ...
I would rule yes, but I would also allow the incorporeal creature a Reflex save to stay at the outer edges (or be forced out - its choice), and if it fails it is then permanently trapped.
You missed theAn incorporeal creature has no physical body.Good luck, here is my GM argument.
For a creature with no physical substance, there is essentially an infinite amount of space between the created wall and the solid object they were hiding in, as it is not the same actual object. They could enter that space and still move between those objects, and it could put itself into the new wall if it wanted to (unless force, etc.)
A good argument, but a wall of stone "merges into adjoining rock surfaces" when created according to the spell description, so it will be the same actual object.
I agree with you for walls of non-stone against stone.
(Still thinking about the original question in the wall of stone case.)
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Nothing in those spells suggest an incorporeal creature cannot pass through them.
I would think that the creature can pass through the suggested physical walls created on its turn, and is fine as long as at the end of its turn it is adjacent to the objects exterior.
That being said, no it would not be stuck, forced out, or could be entombed.
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You missed theAn incorporeal creature has no physical body.Good luck, here is my GM argument.
For a creature with no physical substance, there is essentially an infinite amount of space between the created wall and the solid object they were hiding in, as it is not the same actual object. They could enter that space and still move between those objects, and it could put itself into the new wall if it wanted to (unless force, etc.)
The real situation here would be if an incorporeal creature was hiding in a stone wall and a player came along and cast stone shape to made the stone wall thicker on the edges. In this case it is the same object that it was hiding in and should be subject to the Incorporality rule. So, could you entomb it in this case? Or what happens ...
I would rule yes, but I would also allow the incorporeal creature a Reflex save to stay at the outer edges (or be forced out - its choice), and if it fails it is then permanently trapped.
Wall of force is definitely a different matter and would block the creature. But unless you can fully encase the object the incorporeal creatures is in, I would still allow it to get to an "open" adjacent surface on its turn before deciding it is dead.
Since it must remain on the exterior I would say that it is forced to the "new" edge, but that is because I would consider the new material as part of the old wall.
So, are you saying the "incorporeal creature must remain adjacent to the objects exterior" has no real effect if a ten foot thick wall of stone is merged into a stone wall the incorporeal creature is hiding in before that creature can act? In effect they get to automatically move to the adjacent exterior regardless of distance or thickness of new wall created on their turn, even though they are no longer adjacent to the object's exterior at the start of their turn?
I really don't think the Devs thought of this, but if they were here I think they'd force the creature to the edge of the wall because the book says that's where they must be.
Part of me really doesn't like that. A PC with detect undead up or using a clairvoyance gets the drop on a bunch of specters hiding in a stone wall and the spell slinger melds in a thick wall -- bricking them in so to speak - and the reward, nada. They just move to the edge.
There should be some affect on the incorporeal creature who fails to stay in an adjacent open space. Perhaps a shunting effect like in teleport spells, or at least difficult terrain. It "feels" wrong there is no advantage at all for such a tactic.
I think the difficulty is that there is no in-world explanation why incorporeals can be inside a solid object but only if they're at the surface. The restriction is just to make the game work better. Without knowing what's going on we can't figure out how it would change under those circumstances. So it comes down to, what makes the game work better here?
I agree with 2bz2p that there should be some negative consequence for the incorporeal. My gut suggests a mental effect rather than damage---staggering, stunning, or confusion.
I think the difficulty is that there is no in-world explanation why incorporeals can be inside a solid object but only if they're at the surface. The restriction is just to make the game work better. Without knowing what's going on we can't figure out how it would change under those circumstances. So it comes down to, what makes the game work better here?
I agree with 2bz2p that there should be some negative consequence for the incorporeal. My gut suggests a mental effect rather than damage---staggering, stunning, or confusion.
Even if "why" is left fuzzy, some kind of rule on what happens "when" an incorporeal creature in an object fails to remain in an adjacent open space would be helpful.
You can call upon the rule
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
to say that if the manipulation of the enviroment around an incorporeal creature makes its current postion illegal, it is forced to the closest legal position.
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But in this case the incorporeal creature did not end its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. It began it's turn in a space where they are not allowed to be, but where allowed to be at the end of their last turn.
Can such a creature, no longer adjacent to an open space as required, be deemed unable to move at all?
You can call upon the rule
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.to say that if the manipulation of the enviroment around an incorporeal creature makes its current postion illegal, it is forced to the closest legal position.
Some teleport spells also have a similar rule that says you are shunted you to the closest space that you can legally occupy. That is why I said they would be moved to the edge. Along with what you just posted makes me think that is what would happen with incorporeal creatures.
Dimension Door specifically,
If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.
To me either argument makes sense (a) it is shunted or (b) it could get stuck. There is no rule that is going to validate or invalidate any argument here.
Your group just needs to make a rule and stick to it, and it seems like you just want (b) to work.
I've never thought about this before this thread, and from a coolness factor I would lean towards (b) with a Reflex save not to get perma-stuck.
Not specified. Make something up.
You have found a corner cast in the rule that might actually involves corners, congratulations.
I agree that the two possibilities are either being shunted, or trapped.
My inclination is to lean towards shunted, as the other definition could make such effects more powerful than originally intended.
Despite my defending the player's play, I sort of agree with you. There should be some kind of effect on the Incorporeal creatures. I also liked the idea that is is not a physical damage, but some other kind of effect as well. Maybe the incorporeal creatures lose 1d4 rounds to get to the edge for each 5' feet of such entrapment (for a M sized creature). Maybe they are ejected and automatically staggered for a round. Or maybe the old shunting rules are fair enough. Perhaps the idea the creature is trapped until the stone is removed is really the best - you could make ghost wall traps for Passwall users that way!
Just wish there was some more official kind of answer.
1) Personally I'd say the incorporeal creature needs to end its turn in a legal location or at that point get shunted. And I'd probably say it has to move towards the closest legal location (and possible continuing movement after it reaches that space) and end its turn in a legal location.
Or
2) Ignore the whole darn thing (cause it is a silly rule/situation) and allow the incorporeal creature to move however it wishes ... it would just be "blind" unless next to a surface unless it possessed Lifesense.
NAH - I can't just ignore it. If it's fair game the PC knows that incorporeal creatures must be adjacent to an open space - say the PC has been incorporeal him/herself and understands it - it's a cool strategy and should be rewarded.
Think I'll go with the ejected and dazed for one round.
Ghost Touch spell? Is there such a thing?
I would like to know what that spell is. All I can find is the Ghost Touch property for weapons and armor. "Ghost Whip" is a spell that creates a ghost touch property whip, but I can't find anything that grants the Ghost Touch quality to any object....
Maybe a Third Party spell? (I rarely use those)
Is there any way in RAW to have a non-weapon or armor object (like a wall or door or even a coffee pot) have the ghost touch property?
Is there any way in RAW to have a non-weapon or armor object (like a wall or door or even a coffee pot) have the ghost touch property?
No
I suppose you could WISH a wall or room was effectively "ghost touched", but I still want a FAQ on incorporeal creatures who become trapped behind new fused wall material before the beginning of their turn...
You are looking for this: Ghost Powder
Wear gloves of improvised might. Now that coffee pot is a weapon with the ghost touch property.
You . . . might have some trouble wielding the wall or door as an improvised weapon, though. Maybe if you rip the door off its hinges first.
You are looking for this: Ghost Powder
That's pretty cool, have just started reading Occult Adventures, so nowhere near the magic items section.