Well, it is and it isn't. Because in order to hit your damage benchmarks you have to be able to hit when you full attack. Right now, at 10, that is only a -3, very shortly that goes to a -5.
Meaning your 11 to hit is actually a 14 to hit for you to do your damage. Which in a level or so will become a 16 to hit. Meaning you're likely to actually miss with 2 out of 3 of your swings.
I think it is very much intentional.
I believe someone made the math that no matter how large the penalty is, the number of attacks still makes it much more likely to do more damage than going with a single attack. And unlike in Pathfinder, Starfinder gives the feeling it is intentional that you do not reliably hit with each attack.
Well, it is and it isn't. Because in order to hit your damage benchmarks you have to be able to hit when you full attack. Right now, at 10, that is only a -3, very shortly that goes to a -5.
Meaning your 11 to hit is actually a 14 to hit for you to do your damage. Which in a level or so will become a 16 to hit. Meaning you're likely to actually miss with 2 out of 3 of your swings.
One attack needing an 11 or higher to hit results in 0.5 successful hits per round. Two attacks needing a 14 or higher to hit results in 0.35 + 0.35 = 0.7 succesful hits per round. Three attacks needing a 16 or higher results in 0.25 + 0.25 + 0.25 = 0.75 successful hits per round. For this particular to-hit, its always advantageous to go for the higher number of attacks (although not by much).
I'll also point out that every other class, except for the Sharpshooter Soldier shooting at a single target, gets -4 to hit, not -3 like the Solarian does in melee when attacking twice. In terms of full attack chance to hit, a Solarian can start with a 14 in Strength, and wind up with identical chances to hit as a max strength melee Soldier (the best a melee Soldier can possibly do) with full attacks at level 7 and higher.
I'm convinced Solarians were given Flashing Strikes to help make up for their MAD nature. This is why a maxed strength Solarian does roughly 20% more damage in melee than a melee Soldier - it was designed to let you drop your strength by a modifier point mid-game (which corresponds to a starting Str 14 instead of 18) and maintain parity. They can take 4 of those saved Strength points, and stick them in Charisma, starting with a 14 without any other sacrifices relative to that maxed strength Soldier.
Soldier starts with 18 Strength, bumps up twice to 20 at level 10. Adds +4 from Personal upgrade. Applies -4 penalty to two attacks. Results in +13 to hit twice.
Solarian starts with 14 Strength, bumps up twice to 18 at level 10. Adds +4 from personal upgrade. Applies -3 penalty to two attacks. Results in +13 to hit twice.
In your previous damage comparisons, you've neglected the effects of that +1 to hit on multiple attacks when comparing Solarian and Soldier damage.
In Envall's example, he's letting his strength fall behind by 2 modifier points relative to a maxed Soldier. So 20 Strength vs 24. That means the soldier comparison is a 13 to hit and 15 to hit, compared to his 14 and 16. The Soldier is also still missing 2 of those 3 attacks.
If you neglected the 1 point to hit difference between Solarians and Soldiers in your own damage calculations and noted that Soldier and Solarian damage only differed by a few points or so at very high level, then dropping Solarian strength from an absolute maximum of 24 down to 20 shouldn't be a big deal at 10th level.
I feel if you solve the Solarian's weaknesses without removing some of the abilities it currently has, its going to eclipse melee Soldiers completely with its potential damage output while doing equally or better (i.e. sidereal skill bonuses, out of combat utility) in all other areas.
I know you're not explicitly advocating this, but for example some have suggested making a Solarian's key ability Strength. Doing so makes them the best damage dealers by 20% or so, makes their save DCs always at maximum (equal to or better than Mystic/Technomancer maxed key ability saves), and lets them have equivalent saving throws to a Soldier. I think this is one of the reasons why Solarians ended up with the key stat they did. To create interesting trade offs and make it distinctly different from the Soldier, while still providing enough tools to make the final effectiveness close between the classes. They aren't going to have identical strengths and weakness - because the developers don't want them to be identical classes.
I don't think people have had enough play time at the mid-levels (7th-15th) that we are comparing numerically here. If people find their Solarian being the weakest part of their team with a variety of builds at different levels of optimization and in a variety of situations and parties, then the developers should and probably will step in. However, thats on a very long time scale. We're not going to get any immediate feedback in this thread from the developers, or I expect even on many months of a timescale.
Also, we're not even all approaching from the same assumptions in how the various powers work. I believe Defy Gravity is a good power because it doesn't cost a standard action to activate, while to start a jet pack I believe does take a standard action (although its stays running until you turn it off). Other people believe you can simply use a Jet Pack as a free action, flying when you need to, at which point Defy Gravity looks pretty bad. Radiation looks pretty bad if people in armor ignore it, and potentially useful if they don't.
We need a comprehensive set of errata/FAQ out so we're all on the same page and can better gauge the overall effectiveness of the revelations, which I feel are the heart of the class. As you've indicated, you feel many revelations aren't useful, hence your willingness to use one just for a saving throw bonus. At some point, the developers believe class abilities make up for BAB, hit point, and saving throw differences.
Technomancer vs Soldier shows that most clearly.
But Solarian vs Soldier also falls into that category - simply imagine trading worse saving throws for better to-hit, while still being able to cast haste and charm monster a few times per day.
I mean, imagine a feat that let a Soldier cast Charm Monster on every NPC once per day as a standard action using it Strength key ability score. Would you feel such a feat was balanced?
The soldiers fighting styles are solid and so are gear boosts, but they are not as impactful as revelations in general. Some are comparable, but what does a soldier have that can compare with a zenith revelation like ray of light, or wormholes? what about hypnotic glow, or gravity shield? Those last two aren't even zenith revelations
Got a challenge for Oldskool, since he's one of the people saying Solarians are fine and actually posting a Solarian build to defend that position.
Take your Solarian (Stat) build and now convert it over to a melee Soldier.
What do you gain? Not much
What do you loose? Nothing really
...but wait, you don't need all those stat points you've dumped into CHA and can now put them elsewhere to fine-tune this Soldier into what you want.
This is the problem with the Solarian and the question then becomes -
Do the Solarain Class abilities and Powers off-set these weakness?
...and you can't really say Solarians got a bunch of niffy Class Abilities vs a Soldier as Soldiers get fighting styles.
PS. Hopefully this post will make it up
Did I actually state Solarians are fine or did you just decide to conveniently completely skip over the points I specifically disagree with?
But regardless, challenge accepted. You state in this snark to use the stat array for the Solarian. Let's do that shall we, and not try to manipulate experiment controls just to create favorable arguments. Ok?
Human Soldier:
Starting: 16 13 10 10 10 14
level 20: Str 26 Dex 20 Con 18 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 22
Skills to spend: 4 base, 1 racial bonus, 2 INT = 7
Starship role: Pilot...
Starship Pilot: Pilot Skill 20 ranks, +1 Theme, +5 Dex, +3 In-class bonus = 29... Given the current scaling of all stunts with 10 + 2x Ship Tier you'd need to have a minimum of a +2 modifier like from Skill Synergy to bring down the change to make the DC to a roll of a 19. This is of course assuming your group *hates* you and will not let your actions be one of the 2 capable of getting a Computer advantage (which can be up to +10 making the necessary roll a 9).
Non-combat roll = Face
I spend 2 feats. 1) Skill Synergy (Diplomacy added as a class skill, Intimidate for an insight bonus), and Skill Focus (Diplomacy). My Diplomacy will be a 32 and Intimidate a 31.
Attack bonus modifier from Str = +8
Resolve = 1/2 level (10) + Ability score (6) = 16
All saving throws at a +16.
Building a Soldier like this does have the draw back of having 5% less chance to hit in melee as an equal level Solarian using the exact same array. Also, since my Solarian spent feats so does this Soldier. The Soldier actually spends 3 feats on Skill Synergy, Skill Focus, and Iron Will. They do have the luxury of having more feats to spare.
I'm not stupid. You're clearly trying to attempt a "gotcha". But you also seem to think that the CHA spent in the above example is a "waste". Fine. However, for many players... that is a character. Maybe not "optimal" to you, but serviceable for many.
If you'd like to see how I would prefer to play a Soldier and what I find optimal for it personally, then that is a different question. I'm also willing to bet that build would be dismissed as "sub-optimal" even if I can make it with a higher KAC than the average Solarian will have.
But if you'd just like to banter on about numerical blocks that lack context just to push a self serving argument... I'm not interested.
I spend 2 feats. 1) Skill Synergy (Diplomacy added as a class skill, Intimidate for an insight bonus), and Skill Focus (Diplomacy). My Diplomacy will be a 32 and Intimidate a 31.
Minor correction, but you can't actually do that.
Quote:
Skill Synergy
Benefit: Choose two skills. These skills become class skills for you. If one or both were already class skills, you gain a +2 insight bonus to those skill checks instead.
Since intimidate is already a class skill, you get an insight bonus to diplomacy and intimidate instead. The feat is clear you either get 2 new class skills or a +2 insight bonus to 2 skills. Can't give you a class skill and a +2 bonus.
I spend 2 feats. 1) Skill Synergy (Diplomacy added as a class skill, Intimidate for an insight bonus), and Skill Focus (Diplomacy). My Diplomacy will be a 32 and Intimidate a 31.
Minor correction, but you can't actually do that.
Quote:
Skill Synergy
Benefit: Choose two skills. These skills become class skills for you. If one or both were already class skills, you gain a +2 insight bonus to those skill checks instead.
Since intimidate is already a class skill, you get an insight bonus to diplomacy and intimidate instead. The feat is clear you either get 2 new class skills or a +2 insight bonus to 2 skills. Can't give you a class skill and a +2 bonus.
Ah, you are correct, I totally glossed over that.
Ok, so I'd need to spend 3 feats. One on Skill Synergy to pick up and Diplomacy and Perception (a skill the Soldier lacks). Then Skill Focus x 2 to cover the insight bonuses to Diplomacy and Intimidate.
Cool, so to make use of the CHA in the build I'd want to plan a little better for it.
Thanks Rikkan! :)
**Edit, a Soldier like this may not be my first choice but the more I think about it. The more I like it. Now I want to play it. :(
You know, that Solarian oldskool built really doesn't need all those ranks in Pilot. He can just be the gunner as a Solarian has a full BAB and that build has ~okay~ Dex.
Did I actually state Solarians are fine or did you just decide to conveniently completely skip over the points I specifically disagree with?
Sorry,
Some of your post, if just quickly glanced over, make the Solarian sound fine if not OP if built right. Exactly like HWalch's post sounding like Doom & Gloom, Solarians are weak when he actually means they're lagging behind a bit from the targeted numbers.
My point to you for converting a Solarian to a Soldier is that the Soldier has "more" flexibility to hit those "targeted" numbers and make a build they want.
Solarians try and meet those same bench marks and I find they can't.
personally, I like the play style of the Solarian and while I agree they could use a slight buff. I'm also worried that buff would then make the Solarain OP for a melee build.
personally, I like the play style of the Solarian and while I agree they could use a slight buff. I'm also worried that buff would then make the Solarain OP for a melee build.
That's why the bonus should generally only be +2, any higher than that and we are overshooting the benchmark. The idea is to fix a hole. Not overpower the class. The class misses the benchmark by 2. So 2 fixes it. No more, no less.
Sorry,
Some of your post, if just quickly glanced over, make the Solarian sound fine if not OP if built right. Exactly like HWalch's post sounding like Doom & Gloom, Solarians are weak when he actually means they're lagging behind a bit from the targeted numbers.
My point to you for converting a Solarian to a Soldier is that the Soldier has "more" flexibility to hit those "targeted" numbers and make a build they want.
Solarians try and meet those same bench marks and I find they can't.
personally, I like the play style of the Solarian and while I agree they could use a slight buff. I'm also worried that buff would then make the Solarain OP for a melee build.
Thanks. In retrospect, I could have reigned in that response, and I regret that. Sorry.
I was thinking today, "if I could just buy these peeps a round of beer, then I bet we could have a FAR better conversation about this". :)
Sorry,
Some of your post, if just quickly glanced over, make the Solarian sound fine if not OP if built right. Exactly like HWalch's post sounding like Doom & Gloom, Solarians are weak when he actually means they're lagging behind a bit from the targeted numbers.
My point to you for converting a Solarian to a Soldier is that the Soldier has "more" flexibility to hit those "targeted" numbers and make a build they want.
Solarians try and meet those same bench marks and I find they can't.
personally, I like the play style of the Solarian and while I agree they could use a slight buff. I'm also worried that buff would then make the Solarain OP for a melee build.
Thanks. In retrospect, I could have reigned in that response, and I regret that. Sorry.
I was thinking today, "if I could just buy these peeps a round of beer, then I bet we could have a FAR better conversation about this". :)
I'll admit, I'm a little twitchy this week because I have had a crappy week. Repairing my wheelchair is not something I do. I am not mechanically inclined and until the chair is back in full working order I don't like my mobility being more impaired than it is. So I don't doubt some of my frustration is being enhanced by that.
*cough* This is rather tangential, but I do find I kind of look funny at any suggested build that includes "heavy weapon envoy/technomancer". Obviously such builds are *possible*, but when you need three feats *and* an unusual ability score distribution to make it work? Its clearly a *very* divergent build, and shouldn't be treated as some kind of standard. If the answer is "but this is the way to maximize their DPS given only using a single attack!", maybe the question should be "Is that what you should be optimizing for, primarily, in the first place?"
( Especially since heavy weapons almost always suffer in flexibility- being able to spray autofire or blow up an area is nice, *when you want to do that*, but wasteful or outright counterproductive all the rest of the time. )
*cough* This is rather tangential, but I do find I kind of look funny at any suggested build that includes "heavy weapon envoy/technomancer". Obviously such builds are *possible*, but when you need three feats *and* an unusual ability score distribution to make it work? Its clearly a *very* divergent build, and shouldn't be treated as some kind of standard. If the answer is "but this is the way to maximize their DPS given only using a single attack!", maybe the question should be "Is that what you should be optimizing for, primarily, in the first place?"
( Especially since heavy weapons almost always suffer in flexibility- being able to spray autofire or blow up an area is nice, *when you want to do that*, but wasteful or outright counterproductive all the rest of the time. )
Please just start a new thread about this and let this thread die. It's been going in so many circles it has more coils than a 10-meter slinky.
*cough* This is rather tangential, but I do find I kind of look funny at any suggested build that includes "heavy weapon envoy/technomancer". Obviously such builds are *possible*, but when you need three feats *and* an unusual ability score distribution to make it work? Its clearly a *very* divergent build, and shouldn't be treated as some kind of standard. If the answer is "but this is the way to maximize their DPS given only using a single attack!", maybe the question should be "Is that what you should be optimizing for, primarily, in the first place?"
( Especially since heavy weapons almost always suffer in flexibility- being able to spray autofire or blow up an area is nice, *when you want to do that*, but wasteful or outright counterproductive all the rest of the time. )
Really it's an effort to avoid having to worry about rolling to hit - hitting a grid is AC5. It's also the best weapon for a drone. And really it's one extra feat, because if you aren't using longarms, your DPR really sucks.
*cough* This is rather tangential, but I do find I kind of look funny at any suggested build that includes "heavy weapon envoy/technomancer". Obviously such builds are *possible*, but when you need three feats *and* an unusual ability score distribution to make it work? Its clearly a *very* divergent build, and shouldn't be treated as some kind of standard. If the answer is "but this is the way to maximize their DPS given only using a single attack!", maybe the question should be "Is that what you should be optimizing for, primarily, in the first place?"
( Especially since heavy weapons almost always suffer in flexibility- being able to spray autofire or blow up an area is nice, *when you want to do that*, but wasteful or outright counterproductive all the rest of the time. )
Please just start a new thread about this and let this thread die. It's been going in so many circles it has more coils than a 10-meter slinky.
SwampTing - If you don't want to participate you can leave. You aren't the forum police.
The poster is right. A non-intended build can't be held against and intended build, and be used to say, "See! This class has problems too! That means the Solarian is fine!"
If the "class" that "has problems too" is using a really strange fringe build.
So lets see If I can really quickly the summarize This thread.
argument 1: Mathematically proven that their saves is 2 less if built in an efficient way that you would build other classes? are people disagree with this fact
argument 2: The 2 less on 2 saves is not important enough to change anything.
arguement 3: The build should be changed so that it makes up for that -2 by taking away from str or chr.
Does that sum up all the dissension?
Personal opinion:
Arg1: Unless you can post counter math to disprove this your wasting your time you emotional opinion on it is the wrong approach.
Arg:2 two less then every other class does seem kind of minor but I see no reason to force the class to not line up with the others.
arg 3: Being able to make a variety of build and have them be effective seems like something people should want.
I personally think my idea of the revelation to shore up saves would fix it and make everyone happy.
At this point I don't care to argue with stats about saves with you.
I would rather be able to target AC5 with a plasma weapon, than have +2 Will save.
Saves are kind of where the issue rests, but...
There is a problem with the plasma weapon.
Solarians either go Solar Armor or Solar Weapon.
Solar Armor builds (even in the book) are ranged builds. (Seriously, go look, that's what Paizo did too.) Where Solar Weapon are Melee builds.
Being in melee with light armor, even Solar Armor, without a VERY high Dex means you get hit.
Max Light Armor with a +5 Dex is only a 37 vs Enemies that have a +34 (I think, would have to get up to confirm) means they're never going to miss.
So if you have to go plasma weapon to Target EAC then you're as a melee giving up one of your main class abilities (as Melee statistically should go Heavy Armor)
We have a build upthread that matches all the goals set.
1. I feel that proves that argument 1 only holds if you insist on building the solarian the same way as a soldier/other class.
2. The class can be built to NOT be 2 behind on saves, and maintain all the required benchmarks. See upthread the amazing posts by OldSkool.
3. It can take away from STR, still match the to-hit, and the damage, so you have the choice to either up your damage by maxing STR, or as discussed you can drop it by 4 points to bring one of your saves up, or bring another stat at.
I summarise the thread so far:
Hwalsh:if you completely optomise the solarian for damage it is weaker defensively than a bunch of other classes.
Lots of other people: You don't need to build optimally for damage to be a good part of your team, and if you don't optomise damage like that you can match the defenses of the other classes, while still maintaining parity on offence. See OldSkool's posts upthread
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
One thing I feel that Hwalsh is ignoring is the fact that other classes are spending feats on things the solarian doesn't need to so can pick up save feats if it wants.
I also feel he is suggesting that a class with out of combat utility baked in, the solarian, should match point for point, a class that ONLY does combat, the soldier.
It is physically impossible for a soldier to match a solarian in skills and out of combat utility.
I accept this trade off, saying that "The solarian can be slightly weaker in combat, if you build it a very specific way, so I can gain a bunch of out of combat utility and be flat out better at certain skills than the soldier ever will."
I will say you are probably working on a level of optimization that will be higher then my group will use. I don't see it as being a problem for me but I don't see why a revelation that gives +2 to a save +4 when attuned or stalwart when attuned would be a bad thing. for home games you could just use wisdom instead of charisma.
(man I wish comeliness was still a thing so i could see people flip out on the forums. )
I was talking about other classes can use explode weapons to avoid having to hit with - not for the solarian. This was in response to another poster asking why I would have an envoy or technomancer use heavy weapons.
I don't prioritize a couple of points of saves over what my characters can do in other respects. To each his own.
We have a build upthread that matches all the goals set.
1. I feel that proves that argument 1 only holds if you insist on building the solarian the same way as a soldier/other class.
2. The class can be built to NOT be 2 behind on saves, and maintain all the required benchmarks. See upthread the amazing posts by OldSkool.
3. It can take away from STR, still match the to-hit, and the damage, so you have the choice to either up your damage by maxing STR, or as discussed you can drop it by 4 points to bring one of your saves up, or bring another stat at.
I summarise the thread so far:
Hwalsh:if you completely optomise the solarian for damage it is weaker defensively than a bunch of other classes.
Lots of other people: You don't need to build optimally for damage to be a good part of your team, and if you don't optomise damage like that you can match the defenses of the other classes, while still maintaining parity on offence. See OldSkool's posts upthread
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
One thing I feel that Hwalsh is ignoring is the fact that other classes are spending feats on things the solarian doesn't need to so can pick up save feats if it wants.
I also feel he is suggesting that a class with out of combat utility baked in, the solarian, should match point for point, a class that ONLY does combat, the soldier.
It is physically impossible for a soldier to match a solarian in skills and out of combat utility.
I accept this trade off, saying that "The solarian can be slightly weaker in combat, if you build it a very specific way, so I can gain a bunch of out of combat utility and be flat out better at certain skills than the soldier ever will."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You make some good points. Let me see if I can find this build your referencing. I will admit I have ignored some posts because this thread is getting a bit unwieldy(So I can't full attack with it). Part of my original idea was to drop my hit and damage a bit to partially shore up some of the weaknesses.
Here you go Vid
It was on the previous page, my bad
oldskool wrote:
The challenge was then laid out:
"Show me I am wrong. Show me a Solarian build that gets to at least +8 from attack stat, gets to at least 16 Resolve at level 20, gets to at least a +16 in all three saves, and gets to use 6-7 skill points per level at level 20 in order to use all 6 Sidreal Influence skills and still have a Starship Combat role covered."
Human Solarian:
Starting: 16 13 10 10 10 14
level 20: Str 26 Dex 20 Con 18 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 22
Skills to spend: 4 base, 1 racial bonus, 2 INT = 7
Starship role: Pilot
Starship Pilot: Pilot Skill 20 ranks, +1 Theme, +5 Dex, +3 In-class bonus = 29... Given the current scaling of all stunts with 10 + 2x Ship Tier you'd need to have a minimum of a +2 modifier like from Skill Synergy to bring down the change to make the DC to a roll of a 19. This is of course assuming your group *hates* you and will not let your actions be one of the 2 capable of getting a Computer advantage (which can be up to +10 making the necessary roll a 9).
Attack bonus modifier from Str = +8
Resolve = 1/2 level (10) + Ability score (6) = 16
All saving throws at a +16.
Can assume at least 1 feat spent on Heavy Armor and obviously Iron Will. Other classes lacking more favorable offensive options will likely take Longarm Proficiency and Weapon Specialization/Versatility.
And this example is not to say that Envoys, Operatives, Mystics, Mechanics, or Technomancers have a difficult time doing this. Due to how the other classes get insight bonuses, their Starship role should be far more manageable since by level 20 they will have a +6 with Mystics and Envoys going higher.
Soldiers on the other hand are in the same boat as the Solarian, with getting up to roughly a +29 in piloting before considering how easy it is to potentially spend a feat on Skill Focus to get a +32. If it is a Guard...
We have a build upthread that matches all the goals set.
1. I feel that proves that argument 1 only holds if you insist on building the solarian the same way as a soldier/other class.
2. The class can be built to NOT be 2 behind on saves, and maintain all the required benchmarks. See upthread the amazing posts by OldSkool.
3. It can take away from STR, still match the to-hit, and the damage, so you have the choice to either up your damage by maxing STR, or as discussed you can drop it by 4 points to bring one of your saves up, or bring another stat at.
I summarise the thread so far:
Hwalsh:if you completely optomise the solarian for damage it is weaker defensively than a bunch of other classes.
Lots of other people: You don't need to build optimally for damage to be a good part of your team, and if you don't optomise damage like that you can match the defenses of the other classes, while still maintaining parity on offence. See OldSkool's posts upthread
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
One thing I feel that Hwalsh is ignoring is the fact that other classes are spending feats on things the solarian doesn't need to so can pick up save feats if it wants.
I also feel he is suggesting that a class with out of combat utility baked in, the solarian, should match point for point, a class that ONLY does combat, the soldier.
It is physically impossible for a soldier to match a solarian in skills and out of combat utility.
I accept this trade off, saying that "The solarian can be slightly weaker in combat, if you build it a very specific way, so I can gain a bunch of out of combat utility and be flat out better at certain skills than the soldier ever will."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was able to hit benchmarks on the other classes without using feats.
Are we really having a 10 page discussion over whether or not a total of 2 less on total saves (on a build that some argue is 'optimal' - and some disagree) is counter-balanced by the revelations?
This assumes there is only 1 'correct' or 'optimum' build for each class, whereas builds and saves totals will vary from class to class. STR builds will always out-damage DEX builds and have comparatively lower saves since Dex increases your reflex save. In fact the base graviton/photon bonuses to saves/damage accentuate this, indicating that this is an intended design.
Other people have posted builds showing how the synergy of photon mode, plasma sheath and flashing strikes build up to a significant advantage in damage over a melee soldier. Whether or not the tradeoff is worth it is ultimately a value judgment. The reason some people have stopped bothering with the discussion is that it keeps being revived by people who insist that there is only 1 'proper' build and then compare that against what they think is the 'correct' build for other classes, and then based on their subjective ideas of what is optimal claim they have objectively proven the solarian is weaker, and then dismiss the views of those who disagree with them.
When you get a 10 page thread over something as subjective and minor as this, it really starts to be an eyesore.
That doesn't look half-bad. That is probably the build I would go with.
Mind you I'm still not opposed to a saving throw boosting revelation.
I think it does make sense for the solarion to do slightly less damage then the soldier in exchange for his revelations having better saves. I look at it a bit like how the star wars games had different kind of jedi some that focused on useing the force more and some that focused on using the light saber more. Just need more options to make the force adept better. It would be interesting to me to see the solarion have that as an option. a more caster kind of solarion.
Are we really having a 10 page discussion over whether or not a total of 2 less on total saves (on a build that some argue is 'optimal' - and some disagree) is counter-balanced by the revelations?
This assumes there is only 1 'correct' or 'optimum' build for each class, whereas builds and saves totals will vary from class to class. STR builds will always out-damage DEX builds and have comparatively lower saves since Dex increases your reflex save. In fact the base graviton/photon bonuses to saves/damage accentuate this, indicating that this is an intended design.
Other people have posted builds showing how the synergy of photon mode, plasma sheath and flashing strikes build up to a significant advantage in damage over a melee soldier. Whether or not the tradeoff is worth it is ultimately a value judgment. The reason some people have stopped bothering with the discussion is that it keeps being revived by people who insist that there is only 1 'proper' build and then compare that against what they think is the 'correct' build for other classes, and then based on their subjective ideas of what is optimal claim they have objectively proven the solarian is weaker, and then dismiss the views of those who disagree with them.
When you get a 10 page thread over something as subjective and minor as this, it really starts to be an eyesore.
One thing That I am legitimately tired of seeing is people complaining about thread length if you don't have anything to contribute and don't want to see it why not just ignore the thread?
I don't see you complaining about the damage output of those classes though.
Thought experiment.
If we stop thinking of the Solarian as a pure combat class, IE the soldier, and instead thing of it as something of a hybrid class.
Something that gains out of combat ability, and gains good, if not the best combat ability, how does it stack up?
I think very favorably.
It definitely is better out of combat than the soldier but is only slightly worse in combat than them. Only worse on saves, and only if you choose to build them as you are.
When it comes to holding your own, you are not even actually aiming at CR equal to your level. Considering standard party size is either 4 or 5, you are meant to be able to hold your own against CR either -4 or -5 of your level. And since KAC scales almost linearly with CR, the -4 matches right away with the penalties for full attacking!
These flat penalties instead of the staggered steps of the old iterative attacks make it much more obvious what the design seems to point at.
I don't see you complaining about the damage output of those classes though.
Thought experiment.
If we stop thinking of the Solarian as a pure combat class, IE the soldier, and instead thing of it as something of a hybrid class.
Something that gains out of combat ability, and gains good, if not the best combat ability, how does it stack up?
I think very favorably.
It definitely is better out of combat than the soldier but is only slightly worse in combat than them. Only worse on saves, and only if you choose to build them as you are.
As a non-hybrid class it doesn't stack up very well.
The non-combat classes tend to have 8+Int Skills.
The combat classes tend to have 4+Int Skills
The hybrids tend to have at least 6+Int Skills.
It has:
1. Less out of combat utility than non-combat classes. Remember, you can't attune, or even start attuning, until combat starts. Meaning many of your revelations have very limited use outside of combat. Which is weird for a non-combat class. They have really only a very few that are non-combat based too. Hypnotic Glow being the main outlier.
I don't see you complaining about the damage output of those classes though.
Thought experiment.
If we stop thinking of the Solarian as a pure combat class, IE the soldier, and instead thing of it as something of a hybrid class.
Something that gains out of combat ability, and gains good, if not the best combat ability, how does it stack up?
I think very favorably.
It definitely is better out of combat than the soldier but is only slightly worse in combat than them. Only worse on saves, and only if you choose to build them as you are.
Aside from the skill lack of non-combat utility issue a hybrid class needs burst.
The Operative is a non-combat class and pound for pound, with Trick Attack they will out-damage a Solarian who doesn't full attack. Assuming that the Solarian is intended to be a hybrid (which I see no evidence of) then they'd need some heavy burst to justify it.
Something akin to the Pathfinder Magus.
If the Solarian could add something like do 18d6 + 10d6 +52f at level 20 on a single attack at full attack bonus (that is the Trick Attack bonus) then I could see the argument for them not needing the higher stat. They can't do that. As it is they do less than 10% more damage than a Soldier at level 20.
(The difference between Solarian and Soldier damage at 20 is less than 8 pts. Assuming both have the same weapon, if the Solarian is going Solar weapon and the Soldier 2 handed, this narrows to within 5 points. If there are are 3 enemies in the fight this narrows to 1 point. If there are 4 enemies, the Soldier out-damages the Solarian.)
You will note I didn't call them a hybrid class, but somewhat of a hybrid class.
They have more utility than a soldier, and posisbly slightly less damage if you choose to build with with equal defence.
They also get a slight skill boost.
They can play as a combat character, as you build it for optimum damage.
They can play as a semi hybrid by using the build above from OldSkool.
Have those damage calcs taken into account to-hit chances?
Would you mind showing us how the damage compares using OldSkool's build above?
Sure, but again, Oldskool's build doesn't meet the minimum criteria I put forth, meaning he doesn't hit his save benchmarks. He has to use a feat to reach them, which I didn't use on the other classes. If I apply that same feat to the other classes then his build falls behind again.
With that caveat shown his array is this at 20:
Str 26 Dex 20 Con 18 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 22
A similar soldier will have something like (and I will raise the Soldier's Int, but not Charisma)
Applying Saves (and applying Iron Will as he did for the Solarian)
Saves:
Fort: +18 (12+6) vs +16 (2 lower)
Ref: +16 (6+5+5) vs +16
Will: +18 (12+4+2) vs +16 (2 lower)
-----
Now, assuming both the Soldier and the Solarian are both able to take Weapon Focus, and assuming the Soldier uses a 2 hander and the Solarian uses Solar Weapon (because that *is* a class ability if you are going for this build):
Assuming an "average" encounter, of 3 enemies of 1 CR lower than the level (to make the nay sayers happy)
Soldier:
+30 to hit with a Curve Blade, Dimensional Slice, modified to +28 on Deadly Aim, or +24 for a Full Attack, or +22 for a Deadly Aim full attack. Special Note: +28 for a double strike charge, +26 for a double strike charge deadly aim. A Solarian cannot do this.
12d10 + 13 (str x 1.5) + 20 (Weapon Specialization) +10 (Deadly Aim)
+6 (Against the Odds) = 12d10+49 (avg. 104 per hit)
vs Solarian:
+29 to hit with a Solar Weapon, with high end Crystal, modified to a +27 on Deadly Aim, or +24 for a Full Attack, or +22 for a Deadly Aim full attack.
Even without deadly aim it comes down to 94 vs 105, which still makes it less than 10%. So this "20% more damage" thing is a hard core myth.
Now... We need to look at a legitimate combat scenario:
Both the Solarian and the Soldier have haste, probably from a Haste Circuit.
Both can charge.
So we are going to go with a realistic combat scenario vs 3 CR 19 enemies.
EAC/KAC 33/35
Note: I picked the dimensional slice for the Solider in this scenario because it is a KAC weapon. Theoretically the Soldier could opt for a Flame Doshko Solar Flare for slightly less base damage (10d8) but would be shooting at a lower KAC. The Solarian can do this, but at that point isn't using Solar Armor or their Solar Weapon so... Why bother playing a Solarian at that point? In any case, to keep bias out, I didn't do that.
Note: If the Solar Weapon could use Dexterity instead of Strength, or if it targeted EAC instead of KAC that would *also* fix some of the issues as you could justify the lower strength for the lower attack bonus, but it doesn't, so you can't.
-----
Attack Modes:
Soldier:
Base Attack/Single Attack Charge: 80% Hit rate (needs to roll a 5)
Base Attack/Single Attack Charge w/Deadly Aim: 70% hit rate (needs a 7)
Double Attack Charge: 60% hit rate (needs to roll a 9)
Double Attack Deadly Aim Charge: 50% hit rate (needs to roll an 11)
Full Attack: 50% hit rate (needs to roll an 11)
Full Attack w/ Deadly Aim: 40% hit rate (needs to roll a 13)
Solarian:
Base Attack/Single Attack Charge: 85% Hit rate (needs to roll a 6)
Base Attack/Single Attack Charge w/Deadly Aim: 75% hit rate (needs an 8)
Double Attack Charge: NA
Double Attack Deadly Aim Charge: NA
Full Attack: 50% hit rate (needs to roll an 11)
Full Attack w/ Deadly Aim: 40% hit rate (needs to roll a 13)
-----
So, realistic combat scenario:
Round 1:
Soldier:
Turn 1:
(Swift Action): Activates Haste Circuit
(Move Action): Setup position
(Standard Action): Charge (assuming this is a melee soldier they *can* do this as a Standard Action) w/Double Attack: (There is a 60% chance of each blow striking) if 1 blow hits we will see an avg. damage of 104 Damage, if both hit we will see an avg. damage of 208.
Solarian:
Turn 1:
(Free Action) Attune Photon
(Swift Action) Activate Haste Circuit
(Move Action) Activate Plasma Sheath
(Standard Action) Charge w/Deadly Aim (assuming they can, we will assume this is possible for this situation): (There is a 75% chance of this blow striking) we can expect to see an avg. damage of 115.
After Turn 1:
The Soldier has dealt between 104-208 damage. His first enemy is nearly 1/4 Dead, or 1/2 dead (the enemy starts with 415 HP).
The Solarian has dealt likely around 115 damage. His first enemy is slightly more than 1/4 dead.
-----
Round 2:
Soldier:
Turn 2:
(Move Action): Position.
(Full Action): Full Attack (possible due to Haste Circuit) w/o Deadly Aim (this has a 50% chance to hit, averages of 2/3 will hit dealing 208 damage.)
Solarian:
Turn 2:
(Free Action): Attune Photon
(Move Action): Position, unfortunately haste doesn't allow a move action, just an action for movement only, so they can't activate another revelation and full attack.
(Full Action): Full Attack (possible due to Haste Circuit) w/o Deadly Aim (this has a 50% chance to hit, averages of 2/3 will hit dealing 210 damage.)
After Turn 2:
The Soldier has either killed (dealing 416 damage) their enemy, or has severely wounded it (dealing 312 damage)
The Solarian has likely injured severely their enemy (dealing 325 damage)
-----
Round 3:
Soldier:
Turn 3:
(Move Action): Position potentially between strikes if enemy 1 is not dead already. We are going to assume though that the Soldier did not double hit on the first round, to assume that, for the first hit of this round, his enemy is still alive.
(Full Action): Full Attack w/o Deadly Aim (Due to allowing 2/3 to hit last round, we will play the same average but this time only 1/3 will hit, this deals an additional 104 damage to the enemy. The Soldier will move to attack another enemy twice, but will miss both times. After the death of the 1st enemy the Soldier Average damage drops to 102.
Solarian:
Turn 3: - Things get a little wonky here.
(Free Action): Full Attune Photon
(Standard Action): Solar Acceleration - This allows a Full Action as a Standard Action - Also the Solarian and All Allies within 60 feet have haste, which just allows for saving a little juice on haste circuits. - The Solarian is no longer Photon Attuned however so their damage drops by 14 damage per hit as they lose bonus damage from Plasma Sheath and Photon Attunement, this brings their average damage down to 91.
(Move): Reposition from Haste.
(Full Action): Full Attack - Same odds as before so same rules as before, we will apply damage from 1 of the 3 attacks. This will deal 91 damage to 1 target.
After Turn 3:
The Soldier has killed their 1st enemy, having dealt 416 damage to it. They are in position to attack enemy 2 with a full action.
The Solarian has also killed their 1st enemy, having also dealt 416 damage to it. They are in position to attack enemy 2 with a full action unless they reactivate Plasma Sheath, which they will.
-----
Round 4:
Soldier:
Turn 4:
(Move): Reposition with Haste.
(Full Action): Full Attack - We are resetting to the 2/3 for this round based on the odds. This means that enemy 2 takes 204 damage. As the Solider's damage is now 102 average.
Solarian:
Turn 4:
(Free): Photon Attune
(Move): Activate Plasma Sheath
(Standard Action): Attack with Deadly Aim (this is likely to hit, and apply 115 damage)
It is important to note that the Solarian doesn't get a haste reposition this round, but they likely don't need it.
After turn 4:
The Soldier has dealt 204 damage to his 2nd Enemy.
The Solarian has dealt 115 damage to his 2nd Enemy.
-----
Round 5:
Soldier:
Turn 5:
(Move): Reposition with haste
(Full Action): Attack, as before since 2/3 hit, we apply 1/3 this round. (as we are assuming 50% hit ratio) - The Soldier deals 102 damage to his 2nd Enemy.
Solarian:
Turn 5:
(Free): Photon Attune
(Move): Reposition with haste.
(Full Action): Full Attack, since the Solarian only attacked once last turn, we are going to continue his percentages going off of his last full attack. Therefor he will hit 2/3 times this turn. This will deal 210 damage to his 2nd enemy.
After turn 5:
The Soldier would have dealt 306 damage to his 2nd enemy.
The Solarian would have dealt 325 damage to his 2nd enemy.
This is the first time the Solarian has pulled ahead in damage, doing a total of 19 more damage. This is less than 10% more damage. 10% would have been slightly over 30 damage. This is in the vicinity of 5-7% more damage on average.
-----
Round 6:
Soldier:
Turn 6:
(Move): Reposition (between attacks with haste, we aren't assuming enemies running away and calculating AoO's because that gets kind of ridiculous for an already very long example)
(Full Action): Full Attack: 2/3 will hit this time, which tosses our damage up a little. The first hit will hit enemy 2, the second hit will hit enemy 3, but will do 2 points less damage. So enemy 1 will take 102 damage, enemy 3 will take 100 damage.
Solarian:
Turn 6:
(Free): Attune Photon
Note: Here we have a conundrum. The Solarian has a number of options here. He could attempt a Supernova, and potentially get enemy 2 and 3 in the blast range. If he does he will do 21d6 (Between 73-74 damage, assuming 74) to both targets. This is less damage than he is likely to do by attacking, but since this would also likely be only 1 attack hitting, the net gain is better, but he doesn't know that. Also, to be considered is that a level 19 enemy will have a +20 to this save. Meaning to reach DC 36 it needs to roll a 16 or better. That is a 75% chance of failing. If there were more enemies in range this would be a no-brainer. In this case, however, statistically it is the poorer option. The other Zenith revelation he is likely to have is Ray of Light, which is of no use in this situation.
(Move): Haste Reposition
(Full Action): Full Attack - Only 1/3 attacks will hit this turn. Dealing 115 damage.
After Turn 6:
The Soldier has killed Enemy 2, Enemy 3 has taken 100 damage.
The Solarian has killed enemy 2 with 440 damage, he has not damaged enemy 3 yet.
-----
Round 7:
Soldier:
Turn 7:
(Move): Reposition (from haste, though it should be noted, the haste circuit is almost used up)
(Full Action): Full Attack - Only 1 should hit this round dealing 100 damage.
Solarian:
Turn 7:
(Move): Reposition (from Haste)
(Full Action): Full Attack - 1 attacks should hit this round dealing 230 damage.
After turn 7:
The Soldier has dealt 200 damage to enemy 3.
The Solarian has dealt 230 damage to enemy 3.
-----
Round 8:
Soldier:
Turn 8:
(Move): Reposition
(Full Action): Full Attack - 2/3 will hit this round, dealing 100 damage average on each. The Soldier can make a guess as to if 2 of 3 would hit, that if he Deadly Aim'ed he could potentially kill the last enemy here and now. In this case he goes for it. Dealing 220 damage and killing the final enemy to end the encounter. If one of those missed, he would have to finish it off next round.
Solarian:
Turn 8:
(Move): Reposition
(Full Action): Full Attack - 1/3 will hit this round dealing 115 damage to the enemy, and killing it, ending the encounter.
Both Soldier and Solarian kill their final enemies this turn. Though the Soldier had a slightly lower chance to accomplish this. This was all using average percentages that aren't perfect by any stretch, but instead of just giving raw numbers I thought to provide as realistic of a situation as possible.
This was to demonstrate a number of things:
1. Revelations and action economy. The Solarian had a number of options, but for the most part they were less than ideal given the situation. If the Solarian had used any of them at all, aside from the used Plasma Sheath the fight would have lasted at least one additional round.
2. There is a thing we are hoping to get confirmation on from Paizo regarding Ultimate Photon. This wouldn't have affected this fight's outcome at all, but it is possible that Ultimate Photon would have kept Plasma Sheath operating between Round 3 and 4. This is debatable because the wording can also be read that it only stays active for 1d4 rounds if you started it while not in photon mode.
While the Solarian and Soldier battled back and forth for higher damage, the extra damage didn't impact the final numbers save for the last round. If he hadn't deadly aimed on the last attack set he would have dealt only 200 instead of 220 leaving his enemy standing at 15 HP, though that could also have easily been made up in damage variance.
Edit:
Now the biggest difference in these two is that this uses broad strokes and puts both combatants in the absolute optimum situation. The biggest determination factor here was the Haste Circuit.
If the Soldier had no access to Haste then the Solarian would have beaten him in damage by a mile, an absolute mile. If, however, the enemies were further spaced out and charges were more necessary the Soldier would have beaten the Solarian out by a mile.
In this case I made a judgement call that all enemies were in range of both combatants through normal movement with the exception of the opening attack trying to be as non-biased as possible. I used both combatants to their best possible damage output on every round as well. Making full use of feats like Deadly Aim.
The main advantage the Solarian has at the end of this is that they only used 3 of their 10 Haste Circuit charges, where the Soldier used 8. Meaning, if the characters had no access to haste outside of their haste circuits, the Soldier's damage output for the rest of the day would be considerably lower.
Edit:
Math is hard at 7am. Give me a second to fix a minor math snafu.
Thats the optimized soldier versus oldskools solarion build correct?
And still down by 2 points of will save comparatively? as far as combat goes I think That is pretty acceptable. I really don't have a problem with the soldier out pacing the solarion a bit.
I feel like you get enough feats their really isn't that much selection out their.
(mind you still in the revelation for + to save crowd.)
Thats the optimized soldier versus oldskools solarion build correct?
And still down by 2 points of will save comparatively? as far as combat goes I think That is pretty acceptable. I really don't have a problem with the soldier out pacing the solarion a bit.
I feel like you get enough feats their really isn't that much selection out their.
(mind you still in the revelation for + to save crowd.)
There is actually a math SNAFU that the board won't let me edit.
It is with the Soldier average damage calculations.
I was about 10 damage per hit off because it is 7:30am and I haven't slept yet.
The Soldier damage then is reduced by a slight margin. This changes the outcome of the encounter by 1 round. The Soldier's final enemy will have 25 health remaining at the end of the 8th round.
Instead of killing enemy 2 in round 3 and hurting enemy 3, he will only be able to kill enemy 2.
So that off-sets the damage for round 7-8 a bit.
Ultimately the end result is more or less the same. They kill the enemies at nearly the exact same time.
No, the Soldier will have +18/+16/+18, while the Solarian has +16/+16/+16 under Oldskool's build. Putting the Soldier +4 ahead.
Also due to the Soldier's massive extra number of feats, if they decide to go all in, and get all 3, they'll have a: +20/+18/+18 vs the Solarian's +18/+18/+16 if they did the same.
Secondary note:
No... Solarians are feat starved.
Typical Melee Solarian: (Human)
Human: Heavy Armor
1st: Weapon Focus
3rd: Step Up
5th: Improved Resistance/Nimble Moves
7th: Step Up and Strike
9th: Spellbane
11th: Improved Resistance/Nimble Moves (whichever they didn't at 5)
13th: Penetrating Strikes
15th: Iron/Will Great Fortitude
17th: -Free Choice-
19th: -Free Choice-
It gets harder if non-human:
1st: Heavy Armor
3rd: Weapon Focus
5th: Step Up
7th: Step Up and Strike
9th: Iron Will/Great Fortitude to make up for deficiency (if they can't take Spellbane - The Lashunta can't, for example)
11th: Improved Resistance
13th: Penetrating Strikes
15th: Nimble Moves/Adaptive Fighting (often too late to do any good on Nimble Moves)
17th: Nimble Moves/Adaptive Fighting
19th: Iron Will/Great Fortitude
I feel that that has succesfully shown that your build is not the be all and end all for the Solarian.
OldSkool's build is on par at all points for damage.
If all opponents are within 10ft for use of Against the Odds,
How does a turn 3 Miniature star effect those stats?
It is doing an average of 35 damage for 3.5 turns to all targets.
It is an average of 105 damage to all opponents.
How about if you try to squeeze Corona in there somewhere?
How does an average damage supernova effect this?
I think Miniature star at turn 3 would result in less damage for the round, but would be a net positive for the combat.
He drops the Miniature star at round 3, and moves to enemy 2.
Round 4:
Full attack enemy 2.
Enemy 1,2,3 all take mini star damage.
Round 5:
Attack enemy 2, reposition to 3, attack 3 once.
Enemy 1,2,3 all take mini star damage
round 6:
Attack enemy 3.
Enemy 1 takes mini star damage and dies, 2 takes mini star damage and dies. 3 Takes mini star damage and dies.
There may be an extra round or two due to attack bonuses.
Round 6 he could also drop supernova to damage all enemies for 70 avg/35 if they save/0 if save with evasion.
I am not sure if the above pans out.
Perhaps someone would like to add numbers to this?
I am not 100% sure I can duplicate the way Hwalsh was working his avg damages
Previously it got to +15/+16/+15 - I juggled it around a bit to eek this out, bringing it as far as I think is reasonable and tossing as many Save DC powers as possible.
So if I dropped my str by 1 I could get that 16 wisdom but then I have an odd number which bugs me. no way to get rid of that odd number at that point too. hmm maybe use my initial 2 points that I put into int move them around then drop str to 24 use those points to get my int to 14 and wis to 16 (since the bumps are giving me 2 instead of 1 that way.) 1 less to hit and damage shouldn't ruin me.
I actually don't think the melee solarion needs such a high charisma. He's hardly a resolve guzzler - a photon focused solarion uses his resolve for glow of life and soul furnace, really. A soldier, depends on his specialisation, but I note that soul furnace is absolutely better than either Power of Legend or Rapid Recovery, glow of life recovers more hp than Keep Fighting recovers stamina on average when not attuned (and blows it out of the water when attuned), and the photon solarion can pick both whereas the soldier can only have one of those 3. That's a big plus for the solarion.
But the main other thing that the melee solarion and melee soldier use their resolve for will be stabilising, since they are right in the thick of things. The thing is, since it is always 1/4 of your max, having more resolve also means spending more to stabilise. A starting score of 14 should last you most of your career, possibly bumping to 16 and picking up extra resolve later. Since you don’t to keep it at max and don’t spend a lot of resolve, you can plan around the breakpoints so that after budgeting for 2 stabilisations, you’re not far behind the soldier on resolve at all.
My own build for my melee solarion maintains max STR and keeps a modest CHA. If I budget for having to stabilise twice per day, that's around only 1-2 less resolve to spend per day than a soldier with max str, and is arguably balanced out by my superior revelations compared to what the soldier would use them for.
So my question would be how does the math change if you change the solarion stat array to this:
01: 18/11/10/10/10/14
05: 19/13/12/12/10/14
10: 20/15/14/12/12/14
15: 21/17/16/12/14/14
20: 22/18/16/12/16/16 (enhancement +6STR, +2 DEX heavy armor, +4 CON. I do take extra resolve to get 15 resolve, avoiding the 16 resolve stabilisation breakpoint at level 20)
Final scores: 28/20/20/12/16/16 (very comparable to your soldier's stats if you correct the addition errors in them)
I reckon with those stats you have almost identical saves, lower resolve balanced by superior revelations, and substantially better damage.
