Using dex for dirty tricks?

[Sir_Andrew]

i'm curious. it mentions under weapon finesse that you can use your dex for combat maneuvers like disarm, sunder and trip, because you use your weapon with such checks. most others maneuvers need agile maneuvers to apply dex. but what about dirty tricks? what if my swashbuckler takes a swipe with is rapier(weapon) at his foes eyes to blind them? would he be able to use dex on the check? though i feel that might be stretching the rules a little.

[dragonhunterq]

This is in the 'ask your GM' territory, but if you are able to explain/justify the trick using your weapon you should be able to gain the benefits of that weapon (such as finesse and enhancement bonuses).

[John Murdock]

Sir_Andrew wrote:

i'm curious. it mentions under weapon finesse that you can use your dex for combat maneuvers like disarm, sunder and trip, because you use your weapon with such checks. most others maneuvers need agile maneuvers to apply dex. but what about dirty tricks? what if my swashbuckler takes a swipe with is rapier(weapon) at his foes eyes to blind them? would he be able to use dex on the check? though i feel that might be stretching the rules a little.

swinging your rapier to you enemies eyes to blind them would be more akin to a permanent thing that cannot be remove by a move action, there are example of how you can use dirty trick

''Examples include kicking sand into an opponent’s face to blind him for 1 round, pulling down an enemy’s pants to halve his speed, or hitting a foe in a sensitive spot to make him sickened for a round. The GM is the arbiter of what can be accomplished with this maneuver, but it cannot be used to impose a permanent penalty, and the results can be undone if the target spends a move action.''

i would say for the eye there's not really a way for a weapon to be used to make them blind for one round since using a weapon against an eye normally would render them to be permanently blind on that eye

[PossibleCabbage]

Echoing this is in "ask your GM territory" since Sunder, Trip, and Disarm are ones that, by default you are doing with your weapon rather than your hands.

A clear example of when weapon finesse should apply to a dirty trick, for example is with Cayden's Blade and Tankard Style when you use your mug (treated as a light mace, which is finesseable) to throw liquid in someone's eyes as a dirty trick. But I think it's pretty unlikely to be able to reliably justify "I do this dirty trick thing with a rapier" when if you have sufficient control of your rapier to cut the laces on someone's pants or scrape right above their eyes so the blood dripping obscures their vision, you probably could just stab them in a way that's even more inconvenient.

But your GM may disagree.

[SheepishEidolon]

Sir_Andrew wrote:

it mentions under weapon finesse that you can use your dex for combat maneuvers like disarm, sunder and trip, because you use your weapon with such checks. most others maneuvers need agile maneuvers to apply dex. but what about dirty tricks? what if my swashbuckler takes a swipe with is rapier(weapon) at his foes eyes to blind them?

Well, a PC could also use a hammer to bull rush a foe, a quarterstaff to reposition them, a sword to drag them etc..

But rewarding player's creativity with mechanical advantages has drawbacks. It favors creative players (who already have an edge at RP) over the others and it can result in creativity feeling like a must (during a tough encounter) - which makes it stop being fun.

So I'd rule 'No, get Agile Maneuvers for all these standard action* maneuvers.'.

* I mean the default action cost, feats etc. can of course reduce it sometimes.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Here's the blog. Short answer, everyone else is right. Ask your GM. You only use weapons with certain maneuvers by default but if you can convince the GM you're using a weapon in the maneuver then you get any bonuses for the weapon. It calls out Dirty Trick by name but none of the others.

Though it does go on to say that a trip weapon can be used for Reposition and Drag, but that's a bit different.

[The Shifty Mongoose]

As a possibility, if your opponent is wearing a hat or bandana, you could use a Dex-based Dirty Trick to snag it with your rapier and pull it down over their eyes. If not, you'll have to come up with something else.