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Mainly looking to confirm if the following build works by RAW and is PFS legal.
Half-Orc (Mystic) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 5
Traits: Threatening Defender (Combat), Fate's Favored (Faith)
Feats: Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Diehard (1st), Combat Expertise (3rd), Stalwart (5th)
Rage Powers: Reckless Abandon (2nd), Renewed Vigor (4th)
Can the above build use both Combat Expertise and choose the Fighting Defensively attack option on the same attack?
Assuming they have at least 3 ranks in Acrobatics, does this grant a +5 Dodge bonus to AC (+2 from Combat Expertise, +3 from Fighting Defensively)?
Can they convert this +5 Dodge bonus into DR 5/- using Stalwart that stacks with their Invulnerable Rager class DR to equal DR 7/- total?
Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively aren't the same source, so that argument doesn't apply here.
I'd say Stalwart is the source. For both.
I'd say Stalwart is the source. For both.
Disagree. Stalwart is the source for granting DR, but it's not the source for granting Dodge Bonuses to AC, which is what I'm contending.
The feat says:
While using the total defense action, fighting defensively action, or Combat Expertise, you can forgo the dodge bonus to AC you would normally gain to instead gain an equivalent amount of DR, to a maximum of DR 5/—, until the start of your next turn. This damage reduction stacks with DR you gain from class features, such as the barbarian's, but not with DR from any other source. If you are denied your Dexterity bonus to AC, you are also denied this DR.
Note the bolded part. If I normally get a +5 Dodge Bonus to AC from Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise (since they both combine into the same type of bonus, Dodge), then stating that it only amounts to DR 3/- (or DR 2/-) is not gaining "an equivalent amount of DR" in comparison to "the Dodge Bonus to AC you would normally gain" from using both options.
It would make no sense for a character to have to choose between one of the two options he can take to benefit from this feat unless you're suggesting they can differentiate the two bonuses and affect only one (while keeping the benefits of the other), and in that case I find it dubious for that to be the intent behind the feat to permit.
I'd say since you forgo the dodge bonuses, you never have these dodge bonuses. So, they never get to stack. You can't stack things that aren't there.
I'd say since you forgo the dodge bonuses, you never have these dodge bonuses. So, they never get to stack. You can't stack things that aren't there.
If that's the case, then the feat doesn't even function because you're suggesting that there is no Dodge Bonus for the DR to be converted from, which means you have DR 0/-. I'd rather go with the interpretation that the feat actually does something, instead of creating some weird interpretation that leads to the feat being equivalent to Monkey Lunge or pre-errata Prone Shooter.
Even if it did work that way, you're still resulting in not gaining an equivalent amount of DR in comparison to the Dodge Bonus you gain from the two activities.
Re-reading the text, it actually sounds like you only forgo one Dodge Bonus set, and not both, so the idea that having a +2 Dodge Bonus to AC and DR 3/- (or vice-versa) is a lot more likely than simply losing all Dodge Bonuses gained from the activities for a mathematically sub-par benefit (and no, I'm not referring to DR being inferior to AC).
I say it is granting DR 3 and DR 2, but the DR don't stack cause they aren't from a class feature.
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Benefit: While using the total defense action, fighting defensively action, or Combat Expertise, you can forgo the dodge bonus to AC you would normally gain to instead gain an equivalent amount of DR, to a maximum of DR 5/—, until the start of your next turn. This damage reduction stacks with DR you gain from class features, such as the barbarian’s, but not with DR from any other source. If you are denied your Dexterity bonus to AC, you are also denied this DR.
So there are a couple different ways to read this. My take would be:
- Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise both provide Dodge bonuses that stack with each other. It's not unheard of to use both at the same time.
- The "or" in the first sentence could be read as "this OR that", but also as "this, that AND/OR a third thing". Because some of the items in that list are not mutually exclusive, I think that's quite possible.
- You forgo "the" Dodge bonus - that could be the Dodge bonus from all the things in that list together. And then you gain a single Stalwart DR package: "this damage reduction...".
My take is that you can probably combine CE and Fighting Defensively. If it was intended that you use strictly one or the other I think it would have been written more explicitly.
Cheers, thanks for the replies.
Looks like there's no clear RAW answer on this one, so it'll be subject to table variation and GM interpretation for PFS. I guess I'll just check with the GM beforehand on how they rule it works.
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Cheers, thanks for the replies.
Looks like there's no clear RAW answer on this one, so it'll be subject to table variation and GM interpretation for PFS. I guess I'll just check with the GM beforehand on how they rule it works.
As table variation things go, this one isn't so bad. Your character won't be legal at some tables, illegal at others. It'll just be less DR-y at some than others. Annoying but liveable.
Was this ever resolved?
I'm still not sure if you can use combat expertise and fighting defensively together with Stalwart.
Or rather if you do what happens?
Stack able DR or DR and a dodge bonus or DR and a wasted dodge bonus?
No official word on this? Thanks. :)
Nope.
If they did FAQ it, I'd expect it to be merged to not work together.
Stalwart converts your total dodge bonus, from all sources, into DR/-
So yes, you would get DR 7/- in the above example.
You could also add in the Dodge feat, Canny Defense, and any other source of dodge available. Since dodge stacks, all sources combine into a single summed dodge bonus, which Stalwart converts to DR.
Stalwart converts your total dodge bonus, from all sources, into DR/-
So yes, you would get DR 7/- in the above example.
You could also add in the Dodge feat, Canny Defense, and any other source of dodge available. Since dodge stacks, all sources combine into a single summed dodge bonus, which Stalwart converts to DR.
Well I know the actual dodge feat does not convert, but you still do get it as a dodge bonus.
I think the easy solution is just to not take combat expertise. ;)
Or that. Granted I save a feat the other way. :)