Dex with a spear (Injection spear)


Advice


Howdy folks! So. I'm wondering if anyone else knew of any new ways to do Dex to hit (damage would be nice but not absolutely needed) with a spear ? Well injection spear but it states its used as a spear.

The ways I know are..

Spear Dancer Style (first two feats needed). Requires so many feats though! So Generally I guess done via a "style requirement bypass" style (monk, that one fighter etc...

4 or 5 levels in Fighter and getting that advanced weapon training thingy's Fighter's Finesse (can also gain dex to damage with more levels i Fighter).
I heard some way to bypass or get that early but I don't know enough about fighter tricks to do it.

Maybe VMC fighter into one of the feats that allow weapon training... but I dont' think that actually works. Since VMC doesn't give you fighter levels, just gives you weapon training. but thought i'd just mention it to get it out of the way.

I guess maybe 3 in Phalanx fighter, 1 in swashbuckler.. but not exactly efficient there either. Nor visually neat.

So does anyone have any other ideas? I'm curious if anyone knows a much more streamlined way.
Mainly was for a fun Alchemist, alchemical item/poison user build concept.. Kind of splicing the guy from Hellboy 2, into one of my other builds.

Off hand the fastest I can see would be MOMS and that one style fighter archetype. 1 of each would get the spear dancer style entirely. One for exotic weapon prof (bleeeehhhh) Injection Spear. Then the rest into my alchemist concept build. Dislike having to dip but ah well.... Though it sure is nice that I get extra proficiencies..like syringe spear. Fill some with that lamashu waters for thrown weapons.

please and thank you~


Master of Many Styles and the Unarmed Fighter archetypes were nerfed to only allow feats with the [Style] descriptor, of which only the first in the feat chain is constituted as, which means you have to meet the requirements normally after the first feat. So,

You're still going to need Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and TWF in order to take the second feat, regardless of how you build, which means your suggested ideas aren't that great.

Dipping isn't that bad, you just have to outweigh the pros with the cons, and find dips that mesh extremely well with what you're currently going for.

My suggestion would be to take your first two levels in Unchained Rogue, since you get Weapon Finesse for free, and can take Weapon Focus or some other combat feat as a Rogue Talent (the Style feat chain are all Combat feats), continue as Vivisectionist Alchemist for two levels (stacking the sneak attack dice), then take your third level into Unchained Rogue, which lets you get Dex to Damage with your spear (since the feat gives you the ability to select your spear with Finesse Training). You can just continue with Vivisectionist Alchemist from there.

Suggested feat path:

1. Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
2. Weapon Focus (Injection Spear)
3. Spear Dancing Style
5. Spear Dancing Spiral

If you could be Human, the bonus feat would go a long ways here, since you can have this build "online" by 3rd level instead of 5th level, a 2 level differential in the most played part of the game (1st-5th level).

With Human, you can simply do this:

1. Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Injection Spear)
2. Spear Dancing Style
3. Spear Dancing Spiral

You can be pure UC-Rogue until 3rd level, getting Dex to Attack and Damage with the Injection Spear (since Finesse Training only calls out a weapon that you can use Weapon Finesse with, which is possible via the Spiral feat), and then split into Vivisectionist Alchemist for stacking Sneak Attack dice while getting your other Alchemist goodies. Granted, you can't take the Weapon Focus talent since you spent a regular feat on it, it's not that powerful of a talent, and that can be solved if Retraining is allowed at your table (which, since feats like Spear Dancing Style are allowed, I imagine Retraining is allowed as well).

Also, because the Spear is a two-handed weapon, that's 1.5x Dexterity on damage rolls, which is pretty huge; not to mention with the option of going TWF with it due to Spear Dancing Style for racking up Sneak Attack, which grants Dexterity to damage all on its own (because it's still the same weapon) it's a very powerful and versatile combination.

**EDIT** Just saw that you need to spend proficiency for the Spear Syringe. That can be solved by taking the Swashbuckler UCRogue archetype, which automatically grants proficiency in a single weapon Martial weapon of your choice, of which the Spear Syringe qualifies for. You lose Trapfinding as a result, but the option to take the Combat Feat talent twice is also a nice addition if you decide the 4th level of UCRogue is worth it.


Well would have to get an exotic weapon prof for injection spear.
Syringe spear is also neat but it has a one dose thing rather than the 4? or was it 5? i'll have to rehceck, that the injection spear gets.

Otherwise, good advice thanks~

Ah.. that sucks about those two archetypes.. They were really the only way to really get much of any of those style feats working on any "not purely focused on this build" character. That sure cuts down on the neat style things a lot...

Though, as a rogue you can't get weapon focus at level 1 ASFAIK. Due to the lack of bab. Though I think there was a weapon focus talent?
So i guess..
1: TWF, Weapon fin(from class), Exotic weapon injection spear (I sure miss old heritage weapon trait)
2: weapon focus
3:Dancing style.
5: spiral.

Hmm.. Might need to look into that weapon training version as well. if I'm going that deep need to compare that as version as well I suppose. .

Really is a shame about the easy style access. Most of the styles I'll never touch now because they simply cost far far too much for what they give.


Oh yeah, I forgot Weapon Focus has a BAB requirement. Stupid...


You could get Spear Dancing Spiral at 4th via the combat trick rogue talent. The weapon training talent (for WF) is separate so you can get them both without some archetype. You'll need to be a half-elf with ancestral arms to get EWP at 1st, it too has a +1 BAB prereq.

Sovereign Court

or Human with military tradition (starts with two martial or exotic weapons) , it replaces the bonus feat.


Grenadier, syringe spear, +1, returning, add extra alchemy items. Throw.

Done.


Cavall wrote:

Grenadier, syringe spear, +1, returning, add extra alchemy items. Throw.

Done.

Hmm, close but not quite . it does replicate the feel to a limited extent though. Until high level that will more or less just have one coating per round. Which admittedly is probably enough considering its 3/4th bab. Injection spear gets several doses. Plus loses poison alchemist's resistances. I mean if i'm gonna be running around injecting alchemical items, might as well do the few poisons as well.

(sidenote. At one point I saw that Poison touch spell on Alchemist spell list but now I dont'.. too bad. That extract would be great for injection/syringe stuff. Well waters of lamashu are but costy. Drugs are also a thing; though a bit odd of course.)

Its not remotely bad or anything, just not my style. Additionally I'm just not a terrible fan of that archetype in the past.

Returning isn't really all that useful anyway. Can easily lose it. I'd go with called though. That might be good on my side throwing syringe spear if I wanted the side throwing spear in the end.

-------
Yup, near as I can tell.. 3 levels of Un-rogue, 4 of (maybe weapon master) fighter seem to be a requirement. (with right racial choices) Guess I'll sketch out those two choices. Unrogue I think gets dex to damage though, so that'd probably win out over the durability buffs of the fighter route. (Though would net me extra feats in exchange)

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Thanks so far folks~


How's about a blink back belt instead of returning and a discovery up to your Int for poison use? That should iron that out.

Only reason I suggest it this way is there is no feat use, (get martial with archetype for free) and the archetype allows extra stuff to be added on.


Yup yup that could indeed work~ Though would need quick draw. Or always moving~
neither of which are horrible anyway. (Though still wish quickdraw worked with alchemical weapons)


Yeah you'll have to balance it out. What's bettter feat wise. Then again you dont need quick draw for half your adventuring career.

With throw anything and grenadier you could attach a splash weapon you'll actually gain a bonus to hit I'd imagine of +1.

Meh food for thought.


The go-to spell for alchemists using syringe spears has always been skinsend to two-shot any creature (well presumably only those with skin) in the game, but you probably don't want to go that crazy...


just go 1 Swashbuckler and use a short spear...


@666bender
It isn't about using a spear.. its about using the injection spear for the fun on a bun style.

Syringe spear is considerably easier to get going, wouldn't need to ask about that.

I'll probably never use skinsend, simply because its squiffy for me. I'll just stick with the lamashu water style. Fits the theme better

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