In a recent PFS game I was called out for an alignment infraction. I won't go in depth, but I was told that a Good character wouldn't do what I did. Before I completely change my character, I'd like to see if I just need to change alignment; I've only got 1xp so I can stil retrain.
I was Neutral Good UnRogue but then told that to a Good character, the ends never justify the means. So if my goal is to destroy evil no matter the cost, what alignment would that fall under? And is there a diety that would align with that mindset? I thought Dammerich was close, as a good diety with the Death domain...
I was Neutral Good UnRogue but then told that to a Good character, the ends never justify the means. So if my goal is to destroy evil no matter the cost, what alignment would that fall under? And is there a diety that would align with that mindset? I thought Dammerich was close, as a good diety with the Death domain...
Um, "do the ends justify the means" is literally THE defining question of the Law/Chaos axis. It has basically nothing to do with good/evil.
If answer yes, chaotic. If answer no, lawful. If answer sometimes, neutral. Bam.
Good characters care about others.
Good - I care about everyone.
Neutral - I care about friends, family, or some other small specific group.
Evil - I care about myself/my immediate loved ones and no one else.
So if you are trying to save everyone by eliminating evil, and you feel that that end justifies any means, then you are Chaotic Good.
At least that's how I learned the alignment system.
Oh, and here's a good counterpoint to whomever told you that.
For Lawful Evil, the ends DO NOT justify the means. Like Lawful Good (and LN), they believe that things must be done a certain way. A Lawful Evil character believes there is a right and a wrong way to do Evil. LE characters don't do evil willy-nilly. LE has standards - they do it the right (ie lawful) way, or they don't do it at all.
For Chaotic Evil, the ends do justify the means, so they'll do literally anything to get the job done.
Edit: Oh gods damn it, I just noticed that the OP mentioned PFS. I try to avoid commenting in PFS threads because PFS is its own thing and often not ruled by logic or sanity. So if anything I said conflicts with the guidelines in PFS, then please just ignore my post.
And no offense intended to those who enjoy PFS. Just not my cup of tea.
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I'm not much for PFS or Golarion in general, but...
told that to a Good character, the ends never justify the means.
I am not aware of anything in PF that would allow someone to make the sweeping statement that the ends never justify the means. PF does label some acts as Evil regardless of circumstance (example: casting an evil spell) but there are a lot of circumstances that are less clear.
As Zelgadas Greyward says, some people define Law vs Chaos as Deontological (ends do not justify means) vs Utilitarian (ends do justify means) - though I am not aware of anything in PF that supports this interpretation.
So if my goal is to destroy evil no matter the cost, what alignment would that fall under?
What do you mean by "no matter the cost"?
If you're talking about burning down an occupied orphanage to get at the murderer hiding in the attic, that's evil.
If you're talking about "the suffering involved in war can be justified if the war prevents greater evils" that could easily be considered Good. As I understand it the Mendevian Crusades have quite the seamy underbelly but Good characters still support the effort as a whole because... demon invasion.
And is there a diety that would align with that mindset? I thought Dammerich was close, as a good diety with the Death domain...
The thing about Dammerich, as I understand him, is that he's very concerned with ensuring that executions are just and necessary. So while he's a bit grim for a Good-aligned deity he's not likely to look kindly on excessive force.
Torag and Ragathiel are generally popular choices for characters who are merciless or vengeful in their pursuit of evil. Interestingly both are LG which is inconsistent with the "Ends justify means is Chaotic" position.
In a recent PFS game I was called out for an alignment infraction.
So if my goal is to destroy evil no matter the cost, what alignment would that fall under?
My best suggestion is ask the person that GAVE you the infraction what alignment that goes with. It's the POV of the person passing out the infractions that matters, not you or I.
Alignment is one of those things no two people will ever see perfectly eye to eye on, so if you run into issues you can always pick N and just play any way you like. it's not perfect but it's a good fallback.
As to deity: look at Ragathiel. he has a the Crimson templars. They are
"Among the most lawful and goodly followers of Ragathiel" and "are ruthless assassins who are willing to kill in the name of good while saving others from having to perform such violent tasks." So a LG empyreal lord gives a thumbs up to 'ruthless assassination' in the name of good: "Templars who stray from either strict lawfulness or pure goodness, or who kill a goodly creature, lose their patron's favor until they atone for their sins." So ruthless assassination is "pure goodness" or they'd lose their abilities...
I feel like "the ends never justify the means" is one of those statements that sounds like it should be true but doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.
Like, most people would agree that lying is generally not a great thing to do, right? But if it comes down to "lying" versus "saving innocent lives" I would have to think the majority of good characters would gladly tell a lie to save an innocent life (Pretty much everybody but the Paladins, I figure.) I mean obviously the ends justify the means sometimes, right? If I eat things I don't like, and exercise to the point of pain or exhaustion, the end of "being a stronger person" may well justify that that, right?
That's not to say that there are some means which cannot be justified, I mean even if your stated goal is "destroy evil, no matter what" it can't really be justified if you destroy everything else in the process too. If you're actually willing to bring about the end of all life (because it would get rid of the evil lives too) you could always worship Groetus.
However, I feel like having a character who is primarily thinking about "all evil everywhere" instead of something more local or pressing (I mean "Free Kintargo" comes before "Free Cheliax" right?) is kind of strange behavior. If your character actually has designs on eliminating evil in, like, the Abyss or "on other planets" they probably are not thinking this through all the way. You don't really need to come down on some really extreme/tricky things well before you're in the neighborhood.
My character is based on the former Archangel of Wisdom who ended up becoming the Angel of Death in the Diablo series; Malthael.
Admittedly, I know mass genocide is wholly evil even if you truly believe you are doing it for the greater good, so there must be a line to avoid in order to play in PFS.
That said, if you go to neutralize a potential threat and find out afterwards they were innocent (wether they survived being neutralized is a whole other can of worms), does that make you evil? If one innocent is caught in the crossfire, is the one who pulled the trigger evil? If one life can save others...Oops, I'm rambling a bit.
Is it still atonement if you're sorry for what happened, but would still make the same decision?
What you describe is Chaotic Good. You seek the destruction of evil and won't let petty laws stand in your way. That said, egregiously ignoring the potential deaths of innocents in this pursuit is Chaotic Neutral at best.
"Ends never justify the means" is a poor way to describe all but the most lawfully aligned ideals, AKA the thought process of those we refer to as being "Lawful Stupid." Paladins and monks can lie if the end cause is just. However, they cannot make a habit of these actions. It's like fighting alongside the lesser evil, distasteful but sometimes nessicary. Even Sarenrae (NG) fought alongside her mortal enemy Ashmodeus (LE) to seal away Rovagug (as CE as you get) during the war of the gods.
Hellknight's turn a blind eye on occasion to a small bit of chaos when the long term helps establish more order and law in the long term. Their origin is actually started from a paladin of Aroden renouncing his faith and breaking some laws to start hunting down the cult of a demon hiding among the church of Aroden. While they broke a few smaller rules, their end goal was to stamp out a chaotic group and are embraced as the ultimate force of law outside of the Chellish government.