So I'm creating a world in which many resources are extremely rare, including food, wood, iron/steel, gunpowder, and most notably, dirt. This is a problem for exactly the reasons you think it would be. I can't figure out how to price anything!
The campaign is a West Marches style game set in a fantasy world based on the most tragically under-appreciated 90's movie of all time, Waterworld (unpopular opinion, I'm aware. Fight me.) The world has been drowned as a result of the aboleth merging the plane of water with the material plane. Civilization recovered slowly, building various settlements above the water, but just prior to the campaign, most of the trading routes are being choked by pirates and raiders. It's on the players to thwart the pirates if they want to get any sort of trading between settlements, but some things will always be valuable (Dirt, most notably will always be rare. The Dwarven settlement has access to a cache of iron so that is potentially resolvable.)
I really want to put the hurt on the players to conserve and manage their resources, I especially want them taking the time out of their day to spend fishing or gathering shellfish when they come across an area which is plentiful in such resources. I figure I can mitigate most of this by having players trade in items rather than currency but I have this mental image of shells being money and I don't want to give it up just cause I can't figure out how to price stuff.
There's got to be some of you guys out there that really like economics when in conjunction with fantasy, so if you can give me a crash course on what to do when building such a system, I'd be forever in your debt.
Oh and if you are so inclined, I'm still trying to figure out what to do regarding grappling long distance with a harpoon so check out my other thread if you can help me at all with that.
Wow i say, i propose doubling non-organic materials.
Yeah, that is probably a good place to start.
Do wizards exist in your setting?
Magic users exist, yeah. They are generally referred to as sages, and are pretty rare. Wizards specifically are "Blue Sages", and there is probably a school of them somewhere on the sea, but I haven't fleshed it out particularly well. I would say in total there are probably less than 50 Blue Sages over level 1 (But the world map isn't huge so, that's not a crazy proportion)
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Ok so if the wizard class exists at all we have an easy way to resolve this price issue. Crafting wizards. As you increase the cost of getting resources the normal way snagging a wonderous item that produces raw material via fabricate looks more and more apealing.
The largest towns would have access to whatever they most sorely need that way. However noone would let some ragtag group of adventurers take this vital item away. You can keep the resources management aspect and trade would be vital for all but the largest metropolises. Not every town would have an item for everything.
Also why the super low magic?
If you want to flesh out the blue sages smack them in a walled off section of a huge city and have them be the reason for the wealth of the city. Even a bunch of low level wizards can pose a massive detterent to anyone who wants to invade. They could sell say large fountains that produce resources for cash. That way you don't have to fiddle with prices.
Does such an item exist in pathfinder? I thought fabricate was more like Full Metal Alchemist style alchemy (shaping material into objects) rather than traditional alchemy (converting one material to another)
I do really like the idea of some ninth or higher level wizard somewhere being stuck in the equivalent of a desk job just fabricating for people all day.
As for why low magic, it's not particularly, especially when considering the aquatic races, but even traditionally good aquatic races have been at war with "horizon dwellers" since the flood so there isn't a lot of positive interaction between those two factions. But I really want to establish a level of scarcity in all ways for the "horizon-dwellers" who are pretty desperate just to survive. Magic is very much a resource as you've proven, so keeping it low keeps that scarcity going.
I might suggest looking at Darksun for inspiration. It's not a perfect fit, the scarcity of resources idea is similar. Just different resources.
I might suggest looking at Darksun for inspiration. It's not a perfect fit, the scarcity of resources idea is similar. Just different resources.
A cursory look at the wikipedia page tells me that's probably a great idea. Thank you, Valandil.
First, I have a silly question: Why is dirt in short supply? OK, you have to dive for it, but I thought the ocean bottom is rich soil.
Second, I have a dismal report: I can tell you more about it if you like, but I had a failed venture into economics in my Jade Regent game.
A key plot feature of the AP is that the party travels by caravan, and can engage in trading. Badly. By pubbed rules, it's hard to stay in the black, not counting all of the improvements your caravan needs. Plus, your skills don't actually play a role.
So I rolled up my sleeves and spent a lot of time developing trading rules. Prices for various kinds of goods, and rules for how much you could buy or sell of what, depending on the size of settlement. My prices won't be your prices, for the reasons you mention: seaweed will be your default vegetable, for instance. I'm mentioning this, though, because it bombed.
One player had NO interest, so whatever time we spent on economics was boredom for him. And one player had TOO MUCH focus on it. She ended up bickering with NPCs, primarily, but potentially PCs, in a drive for wealth.
In short, it just wasn't fun.
I had to brutally axe it from my campaign. My rec would be for you to work out what costs what, just so you can toss flavor into descriptions. No, PCs don't buy "rations:" you will tell them what foodstuffs are available in a given area. They will find shops and businesses that specialize in local products. But don't try to make the economy an actual game mechanic.
Of course, you're free to change the price chart for "rations." That might make the party glom onto opportunities for "free food." For all of the minute that that takes, player-time. Then move on.
Between spells like salavage, transmute metal to wood, and a myriad of others, you are going to have a hard time keeping spellcasting players from breaking the economy of the game.
I imagine anyone capable of making tree feather tokens would be able to sell them for quite a sum.
First, I have a silly question: Why is dirt in short supply? OK, you have to dive for it, but I thought the ocean bottom is rich soil.
Yeah, that would be a problem if this campaign was planning to be at all scientifically accurate. I had a huge problem trying to justify wind patterns, ocean tides and currents given the world is flat.
The explanation I'm giving is that the god of land has either been defeated or has retreated into a deep hibernation(and has since been thought of as a dead god, which means rich soil either comes from a bygone era before the god disappeared or what they can get from recycling. There's a lot more cosmological/religious stuff I could get into but that's basically whats governing the scarcity of usable dirt. Maybe it's a cop out but it makes sense in my head.
As for feather tree tokens... you still need somewhere to plant those things, right?
First, I have a silly question: Why is dirt in short supply? OK, you have to dive for it, but I thought the ocean bottom is rich soil.Yeah, that would be a problem if this campaign was planning to be at all scientifically accurate. I had a huge problem trying to justify wind patterns, ocean tides and currents given the world is flat.
The explanation I'm giving is that the god of land has either been defeated or has retreated into a deep hibernation(and has since been thought of as a dead god, which means rich soil either comes from a bygone era before the god disappeared or what they can get from recycling. There's a lot more cosmological/religious stuff I could get into but that's basically whats governing the scarcity of usable dirt. Maybe it's a cop out but it makes sense in my head.
Given that I have a homebrew world where the "Spirits of Winter" are making winter progressively longer than summer (over several decades), I have to accept this. :)
What did you think of my dismal report of incorporating economics, though?
Well I think that's maybe a good reason to go lightweight rather than a deep dive into econ. Which is good because I'm not a huge math person. I think just deciding that some things are much more expensive than other things is probably a good way to go. The difference between your campaign and mine is that caravans can't really effect mechanical changes that will change the way the game is played while ships absolutely can (you can get larger ships, hire crew, buy cannons and other siege weapons and so on.)
My feeling is probably to just limit the amount of gold (shells/pearls) people get, and instead give them interesting objects as loot. That way they have to justify what is worth taking out of dungeons, how much room they have on their boat to take these things back, and finding people willing to buy/trade for them. I imagine there would probably be a noble who really wants historical relics/ books and artwork, but those things wouldn't be valuable to anyone else, and other NPCs who are looking for similar objects that are valuable to them personally but not to the greater population of the hub town. The heavier I lean on trade, rather than currency, the more I get the sort of "scavenger rats" vibe I want.
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Rule of repeated doubling and derivative production?
"Real world" example:
Farmland is scarce = double the price of agriculture
Cost of a fancy coffee drink = 16x the "regular" price
Why?
-Farmland double the price of coffee beans (x2)
-Farmland doubles the price of sugarcane (x2)
-Farmland doubles the price of livestock (x2)
-Livestock doubles the price of dairy (x2)
Base cost x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = x16
Shortcut: Count up all the "production factors" of each item, and apply as many doublings.
Hope this helps.
Rule of repeated doubling and derivative production?
"Real world" example:
Farmland is scarce = double the price of agriculture
Cost of a fancy coffee drink = 16x the "regular" price
Why?
-Farmland double the price of coffee beans (x2)
-Farmland doubles the price of sugarcane (x2)
-Farmland doubles the price of livestock (x2)
-Livestock doubles the price of dairy (x2)Base cost x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = x16
Shortcut: Count up all the "production factors" of each item, and apply as many doublings.
lolwut?
That's not how it works at all, I'm afraid. If ham goes from $1 to $2, and cheese goes from $1 to $2, and wheat bread goes from $1 to $2, and mayo goes from $1 to $2, then a ham-and-cheese on wheat goes from $4 (1+1+1+1) to $8 (2+2+2+2). The doubling of independent goods are independent, because you still need the same amount of each.
Now, you might think that if farmland is more expensive, cows will be more expensive, and that if cows are more expensive, milk will be more expensive -- and that's true. But you still get just as much milk per cow regardless of whether a cow costs $1,000 or $10,000. So doubling the cost of farmland will double the price of a cow, but that will only double the price of milk, not quadruple it.
Your yuppie-ccino will cost twice as much... and probably less in the real world, because demand will slack at that higher price.
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I wouldn't worry about it too much. Most adventurers aren't going to be buying dirt. They'll probably be more interested in buying weapons and armor. They could wield tridents made of bone and armor made of seashells, but for ease of play, price them like regular tridents and regular armor.
Occasionally, they might do a heist to steal a bunch of dirt from some evil farmers, but the fun will be in planning and executing the heist (as well as improvising when things inevitably go awry), not selling bags of dirt afterwards.
You might even want to keep the short hands cp, sp, gp, and pp for ease of use. Cod piece, shell piece, guppy piece, and pearl piece?
Maybe not cod piece...
EDIT:
Goldfish Piece!
Chum piece?
Maybe not cod piece...
I've said it before and I'll say it again, that is a terrible use for an aquatic animal companion!
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Chum piece?
Coral piece?
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Most adventurers aren't going to be buying dirt. They'll probably be more interested in buying weapons and armor. They could wield tridents made of bone and armor made of seashells, but for ease of play, price them like regular tridents and regular armor.
Occasionally, they might do a heist to steal a bunch of dirt from some evil farmers, but the fun will be in planning and executing the heist (as well as improvising when things inevitably go awry), not selling bags of dirt afterwards.
You might even want to keep the short hands cp, sp, gp, and pp for ease of use. Cod piece, shell piece, guppy piece, and pearl piece?
Maybe not cod piece...
EDIT:
Goldfish Piece!
Chum piece?
you are a beautiful person and i love you.
Well I think that's maybe a good reason to go lightweight rather than a deep dive into econ. Which is good because I'm not a huge math person. I think just deciding that some things are much more expensive than other things is probably a good way to go. The difference between your campaign and mine is that caravans can't really effect mechanical changes that will change the way the game is played while ships absolutely can (you can get larger ships, hire crew, buy cannons and other siege weapons and so on.)
My feeling is probably to just limit the amount of gold (shells/pearls) people get, and instead give them interesting objects as loot. That way they have to justify what is worth taking out of dungeons, how much room they have on their boat to take these things back, and finding people willing to buy/trade for them. I imagine there would probably be a noble who really wants historical relics/ books and artwork, but those things wouldn't be valuable to anyone else, and other NPCs who are looking for similar objects that are valuable to them personally but not to the greater population of the hub town. The heavier I lean on trade, rather than currency, the more I get the sort of "scavenger rats" vibe I want.
Uh, you haven't played Jade Regent. Getting more wagons, hiring crew, buying horses, buying weaponry... Sure! And all broken. And all my fix did was to (a) bore the player who didn't want to deal with the above, and (b) incite the second player into trying to get stuff on at the captain's expense. Just saying.
you are a beautiful person and i love you.I wouldn't worry about it too much. Most adventurers aren't going to be buying dirt. They'll probably be more interested in buying weapons and armor. They could wield tridents made of bone and armor made of seashells, but for ease of play, price them like regular tridents and regular armor.
Occasionally, they might do a heist to steal a bunch of dirt from some evil farmers, but the fun will be in planning and executing the heist (as well as improvising when things inevitably go awry), not selling bags of dirt afterwards.
You might even want to keep the short hands cp, sp, gp, and pp for ease of use. Cod piece, shell piece, guppy piece, and pearl piece?
Maybe not cod piece...
EDIT:
Goldfish Piece!
Chum piece?
Aw, jeez. Now I'm blushing!
And use Quibblemuch's coral piece idea!