Thread title... what if we only had 5 attributes, with STR and CON being one and the same?
In terms of simulation, it makes sense – athletic training, such as running or weightlifting, doesn't just fortify your musculature, it also builds stamina and resistance.
In terms of mechanics, it would allow for martial characters to be less MAD, and it would create an interesting tension between STR/CON and DEX as stats. DEX could be allowed to be naturally added to attacks and damage on finessable weapons, but STR/CON would still have an edge over DEX even without 1.5x damage on 2H attacks, as it also provides a different type of defensive boost.
It also plays well with the fantasy of being a nimble speedster or a towering hulk.
It'd probably need some rebalancing across the board, but isn't this a sensible decision?
I know some super strong people with shit for stamina.
I'm not a super strong person but I out work them because i have better stamina.
As Captain America likes to say "I can do this all day"
So, I'm cool with how it is. :-)
I note that this would result in most spellcasters becoming effectively bodybuilders -- since every SAD caster typically makes Constitution his second highest ability score.
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Imagine a body-builder with a chronic illness.
Imagine a nerd with an excellent immune system.
The attributes model different things. Yes, there's some similarity and overlap. A big part of climbing involves dexterity, but strength is important as well, and well, if you want to make it to the top, you'll need constitution.
Point is, while I hear you point, the granularity of the simulation is useful sometimes, and the work involved with removing that richness isn't worth the end result. You'll just create more "it doesn't make sense to me" situations.
I believe the new Conan the Barbarian RPG(Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of) takes this approach to the stats, if you'd like a system like that.
I don't particularly see a problem with it, myself. Agility, dexterity, and aim aren't really the same thing. Wisdom, willpower, and perception aren't really the same thing. So we already pick and choose a bit for what natural abilities and skills we want to lump together into a single stat; having one that covers basic physical fitness isn't so far fetched, despite the valid examples listed here.
I don't think it accomplishes much, and it will create additional problems. Remember there's more than one type of martial, and that this affects ALL characters. This will buff archers and gish classes more than anything else. This will also make heavy armor builds less useful. Build-wise, the advantage of high armor is sacrificing Dexterity in favor of higher Constitution and Strength. Now that every character can easily have a high Strength, Constitution, AND Dexterity, that makes heavy armor less valuable. Overall, this screws up a lot of dynamics without really accomplishing much.
It also doesn't make much thematic sense to me. Being strong doesn't necessarily make you healthy or have a strong immune system.
When I've toyed with ideas like this, what I came up with that I liked the best was to condense down to three stats: one for raw power (STR, INT), one for Flexibility/Adaptibility (DEX, CHA), and one for endurance (CON, WIS). Since there's a mental stat and a physical stat for each new attribute, I would then ask players to choose to prioritize mental or physical for their character (or balanced) and use this to create a multiplier for stat mods.
The goal I don't think is to make as granular a simulation as possible, but to make it easier for people to represent the character they envision with their character sheet.
I really like that idea, good suggestion! After that str and dex seem pretty balanced, just need to sort int/wis/cha out. I feel like putting them all together would be a bit overpowered, so combining them into two stats would be best, then going with a lower point buy like 10 maybe.
Maybe combining the mental stats wouldn't work because all the class features that assume cha is weak and things like that? You could just leave mental stats untouched and combine str and con, but something should probably be done.
Also I feel str to bow damage makes this a bit too much, maybe composite bows can add half str, and add half dex also? Or the minimum of str and dex to damage? Anyone have good ideas for bows? I don't think they should keep str to damage.
When I've toyed with ideas like this, what I came up with that I liked the best was to condense down to three stats: one for raw power (STR, INT), one for Flexibility/Adaptibility (DEX, CHA), and one for endurance (CON, WIS). Since there's a mental stat and a physical stat for each new attribute, I would then ask players to choose to prioritize mental or physical for their character (or balanced) and use this to create a multiplier for stat mods.
That seems pretty cool! But I think it might work best if they don't have to prioritize mental or physical stats (or just have a minor penalty to stats if choosing balanced, like -1 or -2 instead of having the same point buy). That would be a nice way to balance stats.
One thing is that wis and con are both quite nice stats, so it might be better to combine int and con as power, and str and wis as technique? But that is it's own problems. It would be probably be best to redo the stats completly for what fits with what, not going by what corresponds to the old str dex int and so on.
This I do consider as a nice variant, other than the one which divorces Agility (AC, initiative, Reflex) from DEX plus sundering CHA and dividing it along INT and WIS.
The GURPS point costs for its stats plus its history since The Fantasy Trip was a major cue.
Doesn't tri-stat do it like body(str con) mind(int dex?) and soul (wis chr? maybe)
Anyways I feel the fact that they are separate is more advantageous then if they were the same.
It sounds like a good idea to me. Not without further changes to take account of it, but up front a good idea. The odd cases of marathon runners who are only moderately strong and overspecialised bodybuilders could be handled by feats or class abilities - they're not the norm.
I don't think it works well for simulation, even worse for game balance. It's entirely possible to be extremely fit and healthy without packing on a lot of muscle mass that would indicate a high strength. It's also possible to be strong and/or massive, and not be able to outlast someone smaller.
From a game balance point of view, Strength is already a very important a state in too many ways. It doesn't also need to blend in the importance of constitution as well. Not unless you actually do go for the tri-stat method as brought up by Vidmaster7. PF could balance OK around 3 stats that way or maybe 4 (2 physical, 2 mental) but not 2 very useful physical + 3 mental any two of which (and maybe all 3) are probably totally dumpable.
4 would probably work best in a simple, highly abstracted game. Something along the lines of:
Might: Physical damage and soak
Agility: Physical to-hit and avoidance
Intelligence: Magical to-hit and avoidance
Instinct: Magical damage and soak
But again, if you mess with core mechanics like ability scores you have to change a lot of other things to stay in line. If you go to a new ability score system you'd be redoing so many other systems that you might as well start from scratch.