| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is it possible to use the throat slicer feat after maintaining a grapple (to pin)? How does it work? I went ahead and spoke with my GM about a tetori he was completely fine with one. He said "they can be countered, from what I know you can't grapple multiple opponents it should be fine" :) so just wondering now how I can use throat slicer, is it a standard action to use it?
once you get greater grapple, you maintain and pin as a move action, then standard action throat slice. so two rounds. Round 1: initiate grapple, round 2: maintain/pin as move action, standard action throat slice.
without greater grapple, it's three rounds, but the rules fully allow it as long as you have a way of using a weapon in the grapple (like unarmed strikes)
once you get greater grapple, you maintain and pin as a move action, then standard action throat slice. so two rounds. Round 1: initiate grapple, round 2: maintain/pin as move action, standard action throat slice.
without greater grapple, it's three rounds, but the rules fully allow it as long as you have a way of using a weapon in the grapple (like unarmed strikes)
Ahh so I need greater grapple sounds like. At level 1 i'm seeing it go down as first round initiate grapple, second round pin, third round you can CdG? Don't u have to spend a standard action to maintain the pin on the third round?
nope, per the rules of grappling, the grapple ends at the END of the round if you don't maintain, so you'll let go of them after the CDG even if they somehow survive, but that's hardly a concern realistically.
nope, per the rules of grappling, the grapple ends at the END of the round if you don't maintain, so you'll let go of them after the CDG even if they somehow survive, but that's hardly a concern realistically.
Great thanks for the clarification and prompt reply! :)
If it takes me three rounds to do this CDG at level 1 why would I spend a feat on it when I could effectively just tie up the opponent in the same amount of time and the opponent would be rendered helpless anyways. I could take another feat and just beat down opponent normally while he's tied up. Am I missing something?
Remember, you're probably not fighting just one guy. If you leave him there tied up and move on to another opponent, one of his allies might untie him (or he might free himself). If he's dead you don't have to worry. And CdG is by far the fastest way to get him dead so you can move on.
Ahh yes I will be the one doing the pinning. Allies are fighters and a barbarian.
You're not doing this strategy - barring exceptional circumstances - at level 1. You're building for level 3 or 5, where this strategy saves you time in combat because you don't have to deal 40+ damage and can instead force save-or-dies with high DCs early.
Tying someone up is a viable alternative *if* you're the only grappler - the best way is have someone else pin, then apply CdG via Throat slicer - see the build stub above.
Oh, would it be viable in the mid and late game? Are the save or dies easy to dodge later on for enemies?
the real fun is if you use grabbing style and a small sized mithral scythe for a X4 crit, though it works a lot better as a brawler than a monk if I remember correctly. small sized and mithral lets you use it with throat slicer, and even a modest bonus to damage from strength will make for a massive fort save with the X4 crit (I'm too tired at the moment to look up all the exacts)
Wow that's good!
|
He said "they can be countered, from what I know you can't grapple multiple opponents it should be fine" :)
For record, humanoid can grapple 2 targets a round once it has Greater Grapple (one target with each arm). A Goblin Feral Gnasher could grapple up to 3 targets with Rapid Grapple (one with its bite, two with its arms).
Lol if I went grabbing style I guess, my intention was to go snapping turtle. Which one is more effective?
Lol if I went grabbing style I guess, my intention was to go snapping turtle. Which one is more effective?grabbing style is better
Ahh ok I will try and spec for grabbing style than. I just liked the ability to start grapple when it wasn't my turn with the snapping turtle style and the bonus to AC with that style as well.
What about switching between snapping turtle and dragon style? Is it dragon style good for punching them in the face and doing damage that way? or is that pointless if you have throat slicer?
and if you can increase your natural reach then you can take out 2 people from a fight a lot easierAhh ok I will try and spec for grabbing style than. I just liked the ability to start grapple when it wasn't my turn with the snapping turtle style and the bonus to AC with that style as well.Lol if I went grabbing style I guess, my intention was to go snapping turtle. Which one is more effective?grabbing style is better
This would come online at level 8 for a tetori?
Snapping Turtle is used for AC and initiating the grapple. Once you're in the grapple the only reason to use it is for the AC. You can absolutely switch to a different style once you're grappling... in theory. The thing is, it's a swift action to switch normally (you can fix that with Combat Style Master) and you lose your first swift action in a grapple to Clutch. And, as you already guessed, Throat Slicer should end it before you really have time to switch. Even if you're doing it in two rounds (before you get Greater Grapple) you don't want to switch out of Snapping Turtle the same round you use Throat Slicer or you won't be able to use Clutch next round if you end up killing the target.
Tetori doesn't qualify for Grabbing Style until level 8 because they trade out Flurry. I don't think you can actually take it until 9th (need a free feat) and you'd need four more levels to take the rest of the chain (to get to Grabbing Style Master).
Hmm level 13 is pretty late but would it still be worth it to try and get Grabbing style at that point in the game? Is it still effective in the late game?
Grabbing Style probably never really gets less effective, but how useful it is is entirely dependent on the specific game you're playing. The base style (as a Tetori) is only useful if you need one hand not free (for some reason). The capstone is literally only useful if you're grappling two people. If you only ever fight single bosses, it's useless. If you regularly fight large groups of enemies, it's useful. I couldn't tell you which is true for your game.
So, because of how the later feats use "monk levels" instead of a specific class feature the Tetori actually qualifies for all three feats of Grabbing Style by 8th level. Since they're combat feats, a two level dip in Fighter could get you all three feats by 10th level (8 levels of Tetori, two levels of Fighter). If you want to rush it, it's possible. I would recommend Tetori 9 before dipping Fighter (for Inescapable Grasp), maybe be a Weapon Master and take Fighter to 3 for Weapon Training.
Oh awesome thank you very informative. Would it ever be worth it for a tetori to stay till level 18 (end of campaign)? And we are going to be running Curse of the Crimson Throne, would grabbing style be very useful in it? Are there many multiple baddies?
How long you stay in Tetori really depends on what you want out of it. I'd stay until at least 9th for Inescapable Grasp (since that's the only reason to take Tetori over, say, Barbarian). The Tetori keeps gaining stuff up to 18th level, of varying usefulness (+10 feet of fast movement and Neckbreaker at 18). There might be "better" options but you shouldn't really be harmed by just staying Tetori. Common break points after 9th are 13th (anti-teleport and anti-polymorph abilities) and 15th (constrict).
I don't honestly know whether Grabbing Style is a good choice for Curse of the Crimson Throne. Paizo seems to be pretty good about keeping their encounters mixed, probably it'll still be useful throughout the whole AP.
Thank you very helpful, I have some thinking to do for sure when I get to the middle levels.
You're probably not using Throat Slicer if there are other enemies around (unless I've missed something). It still provokes an AoO. I don't think the AoO screws up the attack but it's still an easy way to get killed.
Have you considered a two level dip in cavalier?
At 2nd level, as long as he has rope, the cavalier can tie up a grappled opponent, even if the opponent is not pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, and he does not take the usual –10 penalty on his combat maneuver check to do so. When determining the DC to escape bonds secured by the cavalier, the cavalier’s Combat Maneuver Bonus increases by 1/2 his cavalier level.You can jump from grappled to tied up in two turns with this.
There's also the Assassin's Creed method. Snapping Turtle Clutch lets you immediate action grapple an opponent that misses you with a melee attack. Greater Grapple for move action pin, Throat Slicer to kill them. That's how you "1 turn" Coup De Grace with grapple.
Bob how would this work though? Its ur turn u move by ur enemy to provoke (move action), he misses and u immediately grapple him (immediate action) then you standard action pin your opponent. Wouldn't u have to CdG next round?
If its the enemy's turn and he attacks you and misses then immediate action grapple, then on my turn move action maintain with greater grapple and then standard action CdG. That could work.
save or die are usful for some enemies but most are either immune or have a massive save vs themOh, would it be viable in the mid and late game? Are the save or dies easy to dodge later on for enemies?You're not doing this strategy - barring exceptional circumstances - at level 1. You're building for level 3 or 5, where this strategy saves you time in combat because you don't have to deal 40+ damage and can instead force save-or-dies with high DCs early.
Tying someone up is a viable alternative *if* you're the only grappler - the best way is have someone else pin, then apply CdG via Throat slicer - see the build stub above.
Most are Immune? I thought only a few categories of enemies were immune, ie constructs, undead, plants, incorporeal, and a couple others? A DC 38 isn't going to be easy for anyone, including CR18 monsters that have a +22 Fort?
the real fun is if you use grabbing style and a small sized mithral scythe for a X4 crit, though it works a lot better as a brawler than a monk if I remember correctly. small sized and mithral lets you use it with throat slicer, and even a modest bonus to damage from strength will make for a massive fort save with the X4 crit (I'm too tired at the moment to look up all the exacts)
Sorry I'm new what would the added benefit of having this one handed scythe of mithril be for Throat slicer while I have them pinned?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
nope, per the rules of grappling, the grapple ends at the END of the round if you don't maintain, so you'll let go of them after the CDG even if they somehow survive, but that's hardly a concern realistically.
Does someone have the rules language to back this up? It sounds like it might be true, but I don’t see where the rules actually say that the grapple doesn’t end if you use your standard for something else. I’ve always figured if you can only maintain as a standard, and you aren’t going to maintain as a standard, then the grapple ends immediately. Basically that maintaining needs to be the first thing you do in the round. If Thirdhorsenan is correct m, then Throat Slicer is more useful before you have Greater Grapple.
All I see in the rules is this:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
So, I mean, that doesn’t say it ends either. But it doesn’t say it lasts until the end of the turn. If you can only maintain as a standard, and you are using your standard for something else, aren’t you electing to not maintain, and thus releasing them?
nope, per the rules of grappling, the grapple ends at the END of the round if you don't maintain, so you'll let go of them after the CDG even if they somehow survive, but that's hardly a concern realistically.Does someone have the rules language to back this up? It sounds like it might be true, but I don’t see where the rules actually say that the grapple doesn’t end if you use your standard for something else. I’ve always figured if you can only maintain as a standard, and you aren’t going to maintain as a standard, then the grapple ends immediately. Basically that maintaining needs to be the first thing you do in the round. If Thirdhorsenan is correct m, then Throat Slicer is more useful before you have Greater Grapple.
All I see in the rules is this:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).So, I mean, that doesn’t say it ends either. But it doesn’t say it lasts until the end of the turn. If you can only maintain as a standard, and you are using your standard for something else, aren’t you electing to not maintain, and thus releasing them?
These are the times we need Bruno Breakbone to explain. The Legend.
Bump
One question in regards to surviving the CdG. If its a DC of 38 let's say and the enemy has +10 to Fort does he survive if he rolls a nat 20? Or is he finished?
Ah thank you Ferious Thane!