When thinking about various new martial character ideas, I keep finding myself coming back to how cool Parry-and-Riposte is as an ability. It's neat, flavorful, iconic, and cna provide an interesting alternative way to protect a character without investing as heavily into AC.
And Paizo seems to agree...as long as you're a swashbuckler. Every other way to get Parry/Riposte through feats or archetypes consistently gets errated (Daring Champion, Amateur Swashbuckler) or is banned from PFS* (Virtuous Bravo).
This seems to be a case of 'niche protection', which I can understand: the parry ability is the iconic feature of the swashbuckler class. But as this is a first level-ability for the swashbuckler and doesn't scale with class level, I keep wondering if there's a reason to take any of the class beyond a 1-level dip. I've seen and have done it multiple times (especially Inspired Blade to get Dex-to-damage immediately), but I've never been tempted to continue further.
Can some swashbuckler players show me what I'm missing? What makes the swashbuckler appealing as a main class, or even a more solid dip? Are there neat builds I'm just not seeing?
*I don't mean to have this devolve into an argument over 'PFS isn't the game' beyond citing this as an imo example of the above 'niche protection issue in protection the swashbuckler. I think a Bravo v normal paladin has a solid set of tradeoffs and strengths, but likely is better than a Swashbuckler. However, isn't a Swash 1/Paladin 10 still better than a swashbuckler?
It's biggest weakness is saves, which compared to a paladin is really bad.
Yeah, but isn't Paladin like the class when it comes to saves? Swashbucklers at least get Charmed life, which is better than the nothing many other classes get.
Other than that, I agree with nicholas storm. The swashbuckler in my latest campaign performed admirably. Surprisingly tough with decent AC and parry. And those extra 10 ft. movement over the heavy paladin often meant a real difference in number of attacks made, especially when the Swashbuckler could jump a pit or other obstacle with relative easy.
After level 5 there seems to be little reason to stay in the class, though.
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Well, I can't say that I've really got personal experience with anything other than a 1 level dip, but a friend of mine, who's probably one of the best optimizers I know, felt that his PFS swashbuckler was the best martial he's ever played. He even jokes best in the lodge. Between high AC, good damage, high attack bonus, and a way to leverage that high attack into a defense bonus, it's definitely no slouch.
Personally, I don't know too many martial classes that couldn't benefit from a level of (urban)bloodrager, but level to damage is a pretty decent reason to stay mostly single classed, even if you don't get too many flashy abilities past 5th.
Precise strike, bonus feats, swashbuckler weapon training, evasion (and uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge) at 11th level, ability damage as a bleed at 11th level, fight defensively as a swift action at 15th level, cheat death at 19th. I think a lot of people often overlook the bonuses you get for staying swashbuckler - it actually compares pretty favorably to other martial classes. Even from the standpoint of saving throws, it was once pointed out to me that you'll probably have enough uses of charmed life to apply to every save you might have to take in a single day, so it's not that different from divine grace. (Of course, your millage may vary depending on how many spellcasters your DM throws at you.)
The Paladin thought definitely was the most recent straw to prompt this, but it could be other classes as well (I have a Inspired Blade swashbuckler 1/Medium 7 in PFS that I quite like).
Free (and early-access) Improved Critical is definitely quite nice I agree. Precise Strike is strong as well, but I've found that more often than you'd expect across various campaigns and adventures there always seems to be more creatures immune to precision damage than you'd expect. How often do you find yourself using the Panache for the 'one-big-hit' doubling your level here, for those of you who've played a swashbuckler?
As for Weapon Specializations and GWF, they do get access to these, but how often do you take them? Even the fighters I play with tend to always have another feat to take that's more useful.
The Swashbuckler is essentially a 1 level class. You can go farther for style points, or an interesting archetype, or because your GM gives you candy every time you level in Swashbuckler, but at the end of the day you'd have been better served by levels in another class.
^Why Power Attack AND Des-to-Damage? Seems you would want Piranha Strike instead of Power Attack.
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The fact that precise strike is precision is one of the things that kind of hurts the class. They get improved crit at 5, but their static damage is relatively low to make use of it.
Plus, without a ghost touch weapon, they can't precise strike incorporeals. And elementals laugh at them.
You play a swashbuckler because you want to be a charismatic, more mobile, and lightly armored marshal. If you want to be the best martial at killing stuff, look elsewhere.
The fact that precise strike is precision is one of the things that kind of hurts the class. They get improved crit at 5, but their static damage is relatively low to make use of it.
Plus, without a ghost touch weapon, they can't precise strike incorporeals. And elementals laugh at them.You play a swashbuckler because you want to be a charismatic, more mobile, and lightly armored marshal. If you want to be the best martial at killing stuff, look elsewhere.
From the numbers i have looked at, the damage is less there are a primary thing (like smite), but as a rather good catch up for going 1 weapon/1 handed.
Basically, it makes up for the difference in attack between a swashbuckler with a dex-to-damage dagger with piranha strike and a general full martial class going with strength and a 2 handed weapon. It makes up for not geting the extra 0.5x on stat and power attack.
Once you move under this assumption, then it isn't hard to get good damage. You just build it like a fighter (all the weapon focus and specialization stuff) and you get a 'fake' weapon training for similar bonuses. And few people accuse fighters of being bad at hitting stuff (sure, some worries about elementals, but those are rarely the most threatening thing in the room; usually, you worry about the caster summoning them.).
So why is this better than just going with a regular 2 hander? The shield. Your shield hand is free to use a buckler. So you get a different item to get cheap AC enhancement on. Add that to dex build, the class's scaling AC bonus, and armor, and you are fine for AC.
Also, there is that one nice magic item that expands your reach as a swift action (the blue scarf thing?). With a high crit weapon, you can easily cover the cost of 1 panache to activate that, so it is a rather nice thing to build for.
As a different note about swashbucklers- will save is easy enough to patch at least. Half elf with dual minded, and you are pretty much there for not worrying about most will saves. So I rarely count that as a negative for a class. But that is kind of min max-y, so I can see why there are still reservations.
Inspired Blade has an awesome LV20 capstone.
LV to Damage is pretty strong as well. You get multiple attacks with Riposte and feats like Weapon Trick. Add some Power Attack and Bane from Swashbuckler's Rapier and you're a solid character through all 20 levels.
Dipping is still better for most builds but a straight swashbuckler is respectable.
(1) Good damage potential, as pointed out above
(2) Good AC (dex based, nimble, buckler)
(3) Can have decent saves (especially if a half-orc with sacred tattoos and fate's favored)
(4) Have deeds, which can be fun (riposte and parry. "Come on GM, attack me! Attack me! Ok, I blocked it, hit you back, and now that it's my turn I hit you again.")
(5) Crit fishing is fun
(6) Face skills (You should have good Cha and have face skills as class skills)
Ironically, I think that half-orcs make the best swashbucklers.
(1) Swashbucklers can make a free intimidate to demoralize with every hit. Half-orcs get +2 intimidate
(2) Swashbuckler saves are ok, but half-orcs add +2 to all saves
(3) Swashbucklers have a good amount of skills and free feats. Getting darkvision is something that you can't get as a human with feats
(4) +2 racial dex is perfect for the class
What I would do, if you go down that route, is RP him as being half-hobgoblin. It'd probably fit thematically better.
Here's a quite fun mobile build that needs the Swashbuckler:
Brawler 2 Swash X
Take outslung style, if you use retraining you can get all your feats at 6. You take an agile cestus or go whirling dervish for dex to damage that works with brawler's flurry.
you have: An extra attack on a full attack, 2 5-foot steps a turn, swift action for +5 reach for a minute, and can get +5 reach on all your attacks. With all that you can get 3 attacks a turn on anyone within 25 feet (4 with haste).
^Actually you get 1 10 foot step, not 2 5 foot steps (which would be more flexible). Still good, though. Also, not sure where you get Swift Action for +5 reach for just 1 minute -- by the time you could get Outslug Sprint (for 10 foot step), you have to have Lunge as a permanent feat, not something you use Martial Flexibility to get.
The Blue scarf
For the +5 reach.
^Actually you get 1 10 foot step
Did they change that ever? I thought I remembered it as an extra step...
It's biggest weakness is saves, which compared to a paladin is really bad.Yeah, but isn't Paladin like the class when it comes to saves?
Nah monks are better
Nah monks are betterIt's biggest weakness is saves, which compared to a paladin is really bad.Yeah, but isn't Paladin like the class when it comes to saves?
If you are looking at the core monk they do have the best saves in the game, but the unchained monk took a hit on will saves. The slow progression on will saves is offset by the fact they tend to have a high WIS so they usually end up with good will save. The core monk has much better will saves almost to the point of rendering will saves nearly useless against him. The unchained monk ends up with his will saves about the same as his other saves so still comes out ahead of most classes.
The paladin has two good saves but they are the more important saves. Reflex saves tend to be about how much damage you take instead of avoiding the effect causing the save. Being able to add your CHA modifier to all saves is more powerful than it looks because a paladin is going to have a decent CHA because many of his class abilities run of it. Almost all paladins are going to invest in CHA boosting magic items to bring it even higher. Paladins also gain immunity to many different effects. By 8th level a paladin is completely immune to fear, disease and charms, and at 17th level compulsions are added to the list.
Using either of these classes as a standard for saving throws is foolish. A ranger or a slayer would have been a better comparison.
(1) Good damage potential, as pointed out above
(2) Good AC (dex based, nimble, buckler)
(3) Can have decent saves (especially if a half-orc with sacred tattoos and fate's favored)
(4) Have deeds, which can be fun (riposte and parry. "Come on GM, attack me! Attack me! Ok, I blocked it, hit you back, and now that it's my turn I hit you again.")
(5) Crit fishing is fun
(6) Face skills (You should have good Cha and have face skills as class skills)Ironically, I think that half-orcs make the best swashbucklers.
(1) Swashbucklers can make a free intimidate to demoralize with every hit. Half-orcs get +2 intimidate
(2) Swashbuckler saves are ok, but half-orcs add +2 to all saves
(3) Swashbucklers have a good amount of skills and free feats. Getting darkvision is something that you can't get as a human with feats
(4) +2 racial dex is perfect for the class
This is a very good summary Grumbaki, but also comes back to the question of which of these many things are gotten from swashbuckler levels 2-20.
As I mentioned, one of my characters is right now a Swash 1/ Medium 7. A lot of the points brought up here (mobile fighter, good AC from dex and buckler, swashbuckler flair increasing reach) are all things you can get immediately.
The main points I'm seeing mentioned that come from actually sticking with the class and not the build are Precise Strike (very solid point), free Imp Crit (never bad for most of the weapons you're using) and Nimble (good, but minor benefit).
Your post actually started to touch on the other deeds (the Intimidate one, Menacing Swordplay?) which is something I'm curious about. Are any of the deeds received at level 3, 7, 11, etc any good?
If you are looking at the core monk they do have the best saves in the game, but the unchained monk took a hit on will saves. The slow progression on will saves is offset by the fact they tend to have a high WIS so they usually end up with good will save. The core monk has much better will saves almost to the point of rendering will saves nearly useless against him. The unchained monk ends up with his will saves about the same as his other saves so still comes out ahead of most classes.
The paladin has two good saves but they are the more important saves. Reflex saves tend to be about how much damage you take instead of avoiding the effect causing the save. Being able to add your CHA modifier to all saves is more powerful than it looks because a paladin is going to have a decent CHA because many of his class abilities run of it. Almost all paladins are going to invest in CHA boosting magic items to bring it even higher. Paladins also gain immunity to many different effects. By 8th level a paladin is completely immune to fear, disease and charms, and at 17th level compulsions are added to the list.
Using either of these classes as a standard for saving throws is foolish. A ranger or a slayer would have been a better comparison.
well, the unmonk's reflex tends to be higher, since they are unarmored and need ac early on. good save plus decent stat wins out. fort 'should' be higher too, but many min maxers are taking the d10 as an invitation to lower con.
agreed on the relative importance of each save. reflex also tends to be for things like avoiding a create pit... but the effects of the save are usually over after the fight. fort gets used for poisons and stat damaging stuff, so it can take you life or have long lasting effects. will saves.... tend to threaten the entire party (when you are mind controlled, or cursed to be unreliable). paladins practically make their will saves irrelevant through their immunities, since most of the nasty stuff gets covered.