[PFS] The Sandman Cometh- Advice on level-dip options.

[Selvaxri]

Greetings once again. So, as per my last thread trying to build a Nagaji Bard/Mesmerist- i decided to start a new thread, examining options for a multiclass options.

Anyway, the main draw of this build is Sandman Bard archetype, being a faux-Rogue type with access to Bard magic, while also being able to Steal Spells from any enemy caster types.

Since I lose out on Inspire Courage with this archetype, i may be more reliant on the Fascinate performance to distract enemies.

So know I'm looking for advice on possible multiclass options.
So far, statwise the build is looking: 16/14/12/9/12/16
Traitwise, still up in the air.

So, possibly multiclass options:
Mesmerist- possibly the Umbral Summoner or Enimga archetypes.
the Umbral Summoner can summon shadow monsters at will, so i have expendable distractions/flankers. Enigma grants me concealment vs the target of my Stare. Also, a nifty deficiit to opposing will saves vs my Spell Steal.
Con: another 3/4 BAB casting class...

Brawler- possibly the the Snakebite Striker archetype.
Pros:
Sneak attack to compliment the Sandman's slow SAP
Brawler's Cunning to forego the "int 13" prereq for a possible Improved Feint
Con: ?

Swashbuckler- Possibly the Guided Blade archetype
Pros:
Swashbuckler's Finesse to change the Int Prereq to Charisma
Possible Teamwork feats for my Panache
Cons: ?

So, any advice on a possible Multiclass route is greatly appreciated. I would like this build to focus more on the Sandman aspect, so these will be just level dips.

Thanks,

[Joynt Jezebel]

I am not sure you need to multiclass at all.

There is Accomplished Sneak Attacker to get more sneak attack die, and it does not slow down the sandman progression.

There is also Paladin/ Antipaladin for a 2 level dip. Saving throws and smite good or evil.

[Selvaxri]

The Sandman doesn't get Sneak Attack til 5th, so i'm looking for a multiclass dip that compliments the Sandman archetype.
I do plan on picking up ASA, but that's low priority, as the Sandman gets slow SAP.

Some input would be nice still.

[Penumbra Bard]

I would recommend 1 or 2 levels of Snakebite Striker Brawler. This is for earlier sneak attack and so you don't need 13 int for combat expertise. Since you don't have Inspire Courage and Spellsteal is a rather situational performance, I'd advise taking a few bardic masterpieces. By using a feat or giving up a known spell, you can learn new performances. A good one is Battle Song of the People's Revolt. This gives everyone one teamwork feat.

I would suggest something like this:
lvl 1: Sandman Bard - feat: Nature Soul
lvl 2: Sandman Bard
lvl 3: Snakebite Striker Brawler - feat: Combat Expertise
lvl 4: Bard
lvl 5: Bard - feat: Animal Ally - masterpiece: Battle Song of the People's Revolt keyed to the teamwork feat Pack Flanking
lvl 6: Bard
lvl 7: Brawler - feats: Boon Companion and Improved Feint

The idea is that at lvl 5, you have an animal companion which, thanks to Battle Song, you always have flanking, and thus sneak attacks, when next to him. In fact, you could drop Combat Expertise and Improved Feint for some other feats if you wanted.

Hope this helps.

[Selvaxri]

where that's an interesting idea, Nature's Soul is as much a feat dump as Combat Expertise is.

I am very interested in taking the Battle Song masterpiece, but keying to Pack Flanking feels like i'm gypping my allies a second time. Why not take Outflank, and benefit all my allies, then just giving the benefit to me?

Even with Pack Flanking, i'm only doing 2d6 worth of sneak attack- compared to a Rogue, who has 3d6 at the same level.

I'd rather not have this build to be built around Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack and Spell Steal are nice, but dedicating the build around either hinders the build as a whole.

That's why i was considering the Guided Blade archetype- a second teamwork feat at the cost of a panache point.

[Penumbra Bard]

I don't want to discourage you, I like Bards a lot, but SpellSteal is not very useful in my view.
1) You need to be next to your victim.
2) Takes a standard action, so why not attack instead?
3) You get a random highest level spell you can cast, but there's no telling whether it's any use to you.
4)A spellcaster likely has more than one highest level spell, so it's unlikely you'll significantly effect his/her spellcasting.
5) You may be in the situation where the victim has higher level spells than you, so you're not even stealing his/her best spell.
6) If your in the position to spellsteal, you could also attack him. Why is spellsteal better than just killing the wizard?
7) Bards can only cast their highest level spells a couple of time, so you may have exhausted your highest level spell slots by that point.

Sorry again for being a wet blanket, but Spellsteal has a few problems with it as I see it. If you can convince me otherwise, please do, I'm interested to learn more.

That said, Sandman Bard is the only bard archetype with sneak attack, so naturally I focused on that. Another idea I had was that a lvl 5 Sandman Bard with Accomplished Sneak Attacker can enter the Arcane Trickster prestige class. You could have full bard casting with sneak attack almost on par with a straight rogue. The animal companion/Pack Flanking combo almost guarantees sneak attacks in melee. Outflank only gives an extra +2 on flanking attacks, so it isn't particularly useful. Also as a bard without inspire courage, it pays to be a little more selfish.

With regards to Guided Blade, with 16 Str you don't need Weapon Finesse and teamwork feats aren't all that strong, plus you can only give the teamwork feat for a total of 9 rounds with your stats, so it won't last long. Also it's a standard action, so it's not as useful as casting heroism or allegro on yourself.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't come off as too harsh, I really like peculiar bard builds, so I want to see this work for you.

[Chess Pwn]

2d6 at lv5 isn't a bad deal. The slayer and Snakebite Striker Brawler only has 1d6 at lv5, getting 2d6 at lv6.
So yes, your not getting it as fast as an actual rogue, but compared to everything else that gets sneak attack having 2d6 at lv5 isn't a bad pace.

[Selvaxri]

Penumbra Bard wrote:

I don't want to discourage you, I like Bards a lot, but SpellSteal is not very useful in my view.

Sorry again for being a wet blanket, but Spellsteal has a few problems with it as I see it. If you can convince me otherwise, please do, I'm interested to learn more.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't come off as too harsh, I really like peculiar bard builds, so I want to see this work for you.

No worries, right now I'm still in the "planning" stage of this build. My main concern is mostly not throwing my party under the bus by focusing on being a one-trick pony.

I'm losing out on Inspire Courage, for an ability i do plan on using infrequently, and i'd rather not take a Masterpiece that could benefit the party, instead use it to only benefit myself.

as for your "why not attack?" what's wrong with the surprise "hey thanks for the fireball!"
yes, the core rule of every encounter is "end it asap" and wasting turns trying to yoink spells, or handing out teamwork feats.
This archetype, is the only archetype with the Spellsteal ability. I would like to make use of it, else- what would be the point of taking this archetpye?

It is definitely an interesting build, I could try to pass myself off as a Hunter/Druid, who has Sneak Attack and can steal spells... and perform masterpieces?
Though, one could play as an Enigma [Mesmerist] with the same build; Brawler/Slayer to the same extent just without magic.
I could use the masterpiece for a different Teamwork feat, and just take Pack Flanking as a standard feat [as the animal companions from animal ally aren't all that great], as catching them flatfooted only works toward sneak attack and DC increase- so improved feint/combat expertise aren't as vital.

i do want get some other ideas. Bouncing ideas around, get some creative builds pondered, and see where this build may take shape.

[Chess Pwn]

point of taking the archetype would be sneak attack with the bard spell list, spellsteal could be something funny you try doing, but you'd need your party to not need you in a fight to make it so you trying this doesn't hurt your party.

I think the main point he's trying to make is that without inspire courage the bard has already gone from being a party support character to a selfish character. Sure you can try to put him back into the support role, but you can also easily say that it's not your role, you're a striker in combat, not support.

And so if you build for a striker using his build for automatic sneak attack you're looking at doing d8+2d6+7 damage possibly off of 1 attack. That's an average of 19 damage a hit, plus whatever the animal is doing. You'll likely be able to 2-shot any wizard you get next to. This is why he's saying with this build that attacking the wizard will kill him in 2 rounds, stealing a spell will likely do nothing for the fight, the wizard will still have other spells, and let the wizard live another round.

Also you can't take Pack Flanking as a standard feat because you need your animal companion to have it too, else it doesn't work. And the animal can't take it normally because he doesn't have an animal companion.

Plus this proposed build has an attack of +13 with heroism up and your auto-flank and the str 18 assumed in the damage section.

[Chess Pwn]

now if you ditch the animal you could go bard 5, take arcane strike, power attack, and accomplished sneak attack to have 2d6 at lv5 doing d8+2d6+12 per hit with the +9 before flanking with heroism up.

[Penumbra Bard]

I've had an idea as to how you can use Stealspell. You could steal spells from your allies! Example: You're in a party of 4, you need horses but your wizard has only 1 Mount spell memorized. Using Stealspell, you can steal Mount from the wizard (he chooses to fail the will save), then cast it using your spell slots. Then end the performance and the wizard regains the prepared spell, so now he can also cast Mount. Result: you have at least 2 horses to ride.

There's no restriction on the type of magic you can "borrow", so you could potentially cast arcane, divine or psychic spells that your allies know. I don't recommend doing this in combat before lvl 7 bard, when you can start Stealspell as a move action. Otherwise, you waste 2 rounds, first activating the performance, the second on stealing the spell, before you even contribute to a fight. But outside of combat, it should be useful.

If you want a Battle Song that helps your allies, try Precise Strike, so all allies that flank deal an extra 1d6 precision damage that stacks with sneak attack. The method I suggested was to ensure you'll be getting sneak attack damage on most of your attacks. Sometimes, your friends won't move to flank with you, no matter how much you plead. As such, I'd recommend some way to get sneak attack without flanking.

I'd envision a 7/3 Sandman Bard/Arcane Trickster with Battle Song (Pack Flanking), Animal Ally, Accomplished Sneak Attacker and Boon Companion. He would be a magic adept rogue whose viper lashes out from his sleeve to bite his foes during combat. 7 lvls of bard are needed to get move action Stealspell, if you really intend to use it in combat. If not, you could go straight 5/5 Sandman/Trickster instead.

If you'd prefer feinting, replace Pack Flanking, Animal Ally and Boon Companion with Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. I'm sure if you search the boards, you can find other ways to reliably sneak attack in fights.

[Selvaxri]

Chess Pwn wrote:

point of taking the archetype would be sneak attack with the bard spell list, spellsteal could be something funny you try doing, but you'd need your party to not need you in a fight to make it so you trying this doesn't hurt your party.

I think the main point he's trying to make is that without inspire courage the bard has already gone from being a party support character to a selfish character. Sure you can try to put him back into the support role, but you can also easily say that it's not your role, you're a striker in combat, not support.

All very true.

If i wanted to play sneak-attacker with a spell list, there's the Enigma mesmerist, and the Cult Leader warpriest.

I wish to utilize as much as of this archetype has to offer: stealing spells from enemy casters, sneak attack, bard spell list, fascination performance.

There are plenty of character builds that can do serious damage through sneak attack or just raw damage...

a two-dip into Brawler would probably be the smartest thing to do, for the IUS, the bonus feat, sneak attack, and flurry.

i was considering the Falcata Swashbuckler, because it would be funny to crit while sneak attacking.

[Selvaxri]

Penumbra Bard wrote:

There's no restriction on the type of magic you can "borrow", so you could potentially cast arcane, divine or psychic spells that your allies know. I don't recommend doing this in combat before lvl 7 bard, when you can start Stealspell as a move action. Otherwise, you waste 2 rounds, first activating the performance, the second on stealing the spell, before you even contribute to a fight. But outside of combat, it should be useful.

If you want a Battle Song that helps your allies, try Precise Strike, so all allies that flank deal an extra 1d6 precision damage that stacks with sneak attack. The method I suggested was to ensure you'll be getting sneak attack damage on most of your attacks. Sometimes, your friends won't move to flank with you, no matter how much you plead. As such, I'd recommend some way to get sneak attack without flanking.

Precise Strike would be a good Teamwork feat to aim towards. encourages my party to try for flanking.

Even with the three rounds of Outflank/Escape Route ala Tactician from Guided Blade would benefit the party greatly.

"borrowing" spells from an ally would be interesting...

Quote:

I'd envision a 7/3 Sandman Bard/Arcane Trickster with Battle Song (Pack Flanking), Animal Ally, Accomplished Sneak Attacker and Boon Companion. He would be a magic adept rogue whose viper lashes out from his sleeve to bite his foes during combat. 7 lvls of bard are needed to get move action Stealspell, if you really intend to use it in combat. If not, you could go straight 5/5 Sandman/Trickster instead.

I'm not seeing what Arcane Tricker brings to this build. d6 HD, 4 SP per level is a step down from the d8/6SP i'd get from my Bard lvls. Sneak Attack/spell progression is moot.

also, Spell Steal DC , if i wish to use it combat, is dependant on my bard level- which is why i only want to dip.
I don't think Arcane Trickster is worth it.

Sneak attack only supplements this build; it's not the focus of this build.

[Chess Pwn]

Selvaxri wrote:

Sneak attack only supplements this build; it's not the focus of this build.

I don't think you've said that until now. And like I pointed out, the reason for the archetype for most people would be sneak attacking with a bard.

[Penumbra Bard]

Using Tactician from Guided Blade takes up yet another standard action, and to be honest, there are very few worthwhile teamwork feats; most are kinda useless or minor in effect. I suggested Arcane Trickster because:
1) Full sneak attack
2) Full spell casting
3) Ranged disarming of traps and ranged pickpocketing
4) The ability to make any melee or ranged attack a sneak attack 1/day (up to 2/day at lvl 7)
5) Free action invisibility at lvl 9, which makes your next attack a sneak attack
6) Capstone is that any spell that deals damage to a flat-footed foe deals sneak attack
7) It meshes well with the theme of a bard with sneak attack
8) If you primarily use Stealspell to "borrow" spells from your allies, then the DC is irrelevant.
9) You'll still be able to learn new masterpieces if you go into Arcane Trickster. Some of the higher level masterpieces give powerful out of combat spells, like Earthquake or Planar Binding, which you wouldn't normally get.
10) You don't get anything great for remaining in Sandman Bard. You'll have a slow sneak attack progression and all the performances (except for Spellsteal and Slumber Song) are very much skippable.

If you don't want to be a sneak attacking magical bard/rogue, that's fine. But then you should give us a better idea of what you want instead so we can help you. Also, what level will this character be starting at?

[Selvaxri]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Selvaxri wrote:

Sneak attack only supplements this build; it's not the focus of this build.

I don't think you've said that until now. And like I pointed out, the reason for the archetype for most people would be sneak attacking with a bard.

Very true, before Cult Leader and Enigma, there weren't many classes capable to combining sneak attack with a caster class.

I still want to see if it's possible to build a character without building solely around Sneak Attack.

Penumbra Bard wrote:

If you don't want to be a sneak attacking magical bard/rogue, that's fine. But then you should give us a better idea of what you want instead so we can help you. Also, what level will this character be starting at?

Most likely, this character will be starting at lvl 1, it's PFS after all. Although, this character may be a GM-baby so the level i actually could play it for the first time may be unknown.

This thread is mostly a place to contemplating and ruminate a build around the Sandman archetype; trying to make use of the aspects of the archetype.

In regards to your Arcane Trickster suggestion, does it take into account Snakebite Striker?

[Penumbra Bard]

Well it's a bit difficult to think of a build for Sandman that doesn't focus on sneak attack to some extend, since it is by far the best feature of the archetype.

If you would like something different, you have a high starting strength score, so maybe Dragon Disciple would appeal to you? Perhaps you nagaji has some dragonic heritage in her? PFS stops around lvl 10, so either 5/5 or 6/4 Sandman Bard/Dragon Disciple would work well. 4 lvls of Dragon Disciple gives 4*d12 hp, 3 caster levels, +4 Str, +2 natural armor, limited bite and claws and a free bloodline feat.

Recommended feats would be Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Accomplished Sneak Attacker. You would mainly get sneak attack from flanking and perhaps from spells (e.g Dazzling Blade is a swift action blind for 1 foe for 1 round), but with a good 2-handed weapon, Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Heroism and your naturally high strength, you'll do plenty of damage without sneak attack.

If you're interested in other masterpieces than Battle Song, Symphony of the Ascent and Hymn of Restorative Harmonics both get rid of negative status effects on allies, Melody of Frightful Death deals 1d6 damage/round to all who fail a Will save and Rondeau of Heavenly Order is a weird crowd control that makes enemies that fail their save only able to move in straight lines.

Another prestige class that may intrigue you is Ashavic Dancer. This advances both spellcasting and bardic performance. It's anti-undead focused, gives you new anti-undead performances and gives you versatile performance, which Sandman trades away.

Hope this is helpful to you.

[Penumbra Bard]

Oh, also with Arcane Trickster, you only need to dip Snakebite Striker if you intend to take Combat Expertise.

[Selvaxri]

I will perfectly honest- I've never been a fan of Power Attack on non-martial focused characters.
My lvl-11 Monk doesn't have power attack, because reasons. I only have power attack on my Emerald Spire Fighter and Bloodrager... and i have 12 characters in PFS.

Let's try a build that utilizes Sneak Attack without going power attack.
I'd still love to use Spell Steal offensively, when able.

I do like the Brawler dip as a means to get other feats. Combat Expertise not needed, as much.

In regards to Masterpieces, i plan on giving up spells known, considering i may just "borrow" spells from allies.

Proposed build
Bard 1/Brawler 0> Extra Performance
Bard 1/Brawler 1> -
Bard 2/Brawler 1> Arcane Strike
Bard 3/Brawler 1> -
Bard 4/Brawler 1> Accomplished Sneak Attacker/ *spell known for masterpiece*
Bard 5/Brawler 1> [now 3d6 Sneak attack :)]
Bard 5/Brawler 2> ?/?

still undecided on Traits. Less Effort means transmutation spells last longer.

[plaidwandering]

at the most potent(full bard caster level) spell steal is awful

the action economy is awful - start performance, move next to caster, always a standard to touch, has a save they will be good at, likely steals a spell they've already had time to cast, can't steal a full casters highest spells

you're talking about taking something already seriously bad and diluting it further with level dips that lower the save and highest spell you can steal

I totally get the 'neatness' of the idea behind the ability, but the way it's written is shooting yourself in the foot with a siege weapon

I see I'm not really adding anything new here, but really think to yourself - do I need to try and force this thing to try and work that's honestly detrimental

[Selvaxri]

plaidwandering wrote:

I see I'm not really adding anything new here, but really think to yourself - do I need to try and force this thing to try and work that's honestly detrimental

If you're not going to think creatively, then why bother reiterating what i already said?

Help, or don't.

[Chess Pwn]

Selvaxri wrote:

plaidwandering wrote:

I see I'm not really adding anything new here, but really think to yourself - do I need to try and force this thing to try and work that's honestly detrimental

If you're not going to think creatively, then why bother reiterating what i already said?

Help, or don't.

He is, he's showing that there are more people that think it's bad.

example, if one has a 50/50 chance of taking 1 of 2 options, he doesn't know what to do. If you get 3 people telling you to take the 2nd option and why it might tip you enough to feel good about choosing option 2. If you get 10 people telling you all the same thing, you'll likely be more confident in choosing 2. Just throwing in saying that more people support a view just helps one to realize how many people came to the same conclusion already.

Also, what is there to think creatively about? I feel it's been gone over how to try and make the best of spellsteal. Like is there something you're not liking about the advice you currently have that you'd like to see if there are more options? Is there anything you're currently asking for advice on?

[Penumbra Bard]

To be honest, if you were to use Stealspell in combat against an ememy caster, it would have been better to cast Silence on yourself and attack the caster. With Silence, the caster becomes completely incapable of casting, whereas Stealspell barely effects him. The best use for Stealspell I think is borrowing from allies outside of combat.

I don't understand why you dislike Power Attack, it's a nice boost to damage. You don't necessarily need it, but its a lot of bang for your buck, and bards get very few feats so its quite helpful for them.

With 5/4 Sandman Bard/Dragon Disciple, you'd akin to a combined fighter/caster/rogue. You'll have 3rd level spells, 20 Str without equipment or buffs, similar to a raging barbarian, and you'd have sneak attack and trapfinding. The downsides are that bardic performances fall to the wayside and you have less skill points/level when in Dragon Disciple, so you'll have to focus on a couple skills at that point.

Feats could be:
1) Arcane Strike
3) Power Attack
5) Accomplished Sneak Attacker
7) Accomplished Sneak Attacker/free feat
7 bloodline) Toughness, Improved Inititive or Great Fortitude
9) Accomplished Sneak Attacker/free feat

[Chess Pwn]

Accomplished Sneak Attacker can only be taken once.

[Penumbra Bard]

Whoops! Sorry.

[Selvaxri]

Pointing out the flaws of the potential build isn't helping. It's stating the obvious.

General advice for the build was generally to try to make this build a compliment to the party without being a total show-stealer; trying to utilize all my abilities to their fullest- Spellsteal, rogue-like abilities, maybe some Masterpieces.
Sneak Attack on a 6th-lvl Caster class is a rare site in PFS.

Although, a friend helped me realize the major flaw in this build is- spell steal is a complete time sink: a standard to start performance, standard to steal the spell, standard to cast the spell.
"Borrowing" ally spells is probably the best case scenario, even then- trying to do it out of combat is very time-based.
THREE ROUNDS OF PERFORMANCE to even cast the stolen spell. Quicken Spell metamagic is useless.
I won't be useful until 7th that i can start a performance as a Move Action, but that's still one turn wasted- if my target doesn't move away from me.
it won't be until 8th, i could possibly Steal Spell/Attack when i get my iterative attack.

I've stuck it in my mind that Spell Steal is a nifty ability, but only recently discovered it's a time sink. :/

I'm beginning to think this build may be dead in the water, and i may as well go with my Enigma/Vanguard idea- a sneak attack dedicated build.

Else, i may contemplate a Bard/(Brawler?)/Arcane Trickster build... just forget about Spell Steal, consider Battle Hymn of People's Revolt: Precise Strike.
Dragon Disciple is just too popular right now to want to try for.

[BigNorseWolf]

Fascinate is nearly impossible to use. Its not a matter of the DC, but that it simply breaks automatically in a stiff breeze. As a pathfinder you've probably got at least two hurricanes per group.

[Chess Pwn]

First, it's SUPER hard to give useful general advice because we have no idea what you might want different.

and

haha, sorry Selvaxri, but do you see how funny your comments are?

Random Dude: "Just want to reiterate that it sucks and that it's probably not worth your time/effort"
you: "Dude your not helping by pointing out flaws, those are obvious"
NEXT LINE
You: "So when someone was telling me it sucks I finally realized that it sucks and now I think it's not worth my time/effort"

Like the guy told you literally the day before that it's a time sink and a bad idea and you chew him out for 'not being creating and not helping' and now come the day after saying how yet another person was talking about how it's a time sink and a bad idea and he gets praised for pointing this out to you."

Please don't take this bad, I'm not trying to judge or shame you, but point out WHY it can be helpful to just state the same obvious thing again when it seems like someone hasn't clued in.

But I'm glad that out of all the people telling you it's bad and not worth focusing on someone was able to help you understand why.

plaidwandering wrote:

the action economy is awful - start performance, move next to caster, always a standard to touch, has a save they will be good at, likely steals a spell they've already had time to cast, can't steal a full casters highest spells

Chess Pwn Wed, Apr 26, 2017 wrote:

spellsteal. You start it up as a normal performance, while it's active you can make a standard action touch attack to try and steal a spell. If you succeed you can cast that spell.

Chess Pwn Wed, Apr 26, 2017 wrote:

It seems like your plan is,

R1 move towards enemy caster and start spellsteal song.
R2 finish moving to caster and use spellsteal and hope it works.
R3 ... Steal more, try to sneak attack or cast stolen ?

[plaidwandering]

eh, I don't blame him, it is human nature to resist advice contrary to what you are wanting to hear. I've done it too.

it's actually one of the reasons I posted the downsides again with slightly new phrasing

sometimes repetition breaks through

plus it IS a neat concept/flavor of ability, so you want it to be workable, it's just written in a way that makes it useless

[Selvaxri]

I've always been one to try to make crazy ideas work. When i played M:tG, i built oddball decks. Trying to make a playable build with a "bad" archetype is direct correlation with that mentality.

And my friend didn't point out the flawed action-economy, he just made me realize it.

The question now becomes- is there even a reason to play a bard that doesn't use his performances [even masterpieces]? Or should i just procede with with a Mesmerist/Slayer build that's going to get panned for the same reason?

[Chess Pwn]

bards get heroism at lv4, they qualify for arcane strike, they get lots of skills and can substitute skills for other skills.

Now is that a good enough reason to play instead of X other build is your call.

The mesmerist probably has a better time since his things tend to get better action economy.

[Grandlounge]

Selvaxri wrote:

The question now becomes- is there even a reason to play a bard that doesn't use his performances [even masterpieces]? Or should i just procede with with a Mesmerist/Slayer build that's going to get panned for the same reason?

It depends what you mean by "doesn't use". Designers try to balance class. This means you get a set of features that add up to your class. If you class is give 7 features you should try to use them. the more you ignore the more likely you are to feel underwhelmed.

For example a druid can completely ignore wild shape, nature focus, not utilize its BAB and still be a decent character. Two simple ways to make this character better are to not ignore the features. Wild shape for defense, have decent accuracy for range touch spells for when you want them, and don't for get about your domain spells/ powers.

OR

You can trade the stuff you don't want for something else.

"a bard that doesn't use his performances'
Should a bard just ignore his perfomance class feature and just let it sit there. I would not recomend it. But, a very popular bard the archologist trades it out and is very valid. There are others that trade it a way with varying qualities of replacments.

[Selvaxri]

Grandlounge wrote:

Selvaxri wrote:

The question now becomes- is there even a reason to play a bard that doesn't use his performances [even masterpieces]? Or should i just procede with with a Mesmerist/Slayer build that's going to get panned for the same reason?

It depends what you mean by "doesn't use". Designers try to balance class. This means you get a set of features that add up to your class. If you class is give 7 features you should try to use them. the more you ignore the more likely you are to feel underwhelmed.

That's what i was hoping to do with this build- make use of all that he has to offer.

But then- Spell Steal is utter waste of time, until at least 7th/8th.
Fascination/Slumber Song is, apparently, another waste of time.
:(
Rogue 'abilities' with the bard song lost, with sneak attack is still okay.

Which leaves me with a possible Arcane Trickster route.
(Brawler 1?)/Bard 5(8?)/Arcane Trickster X could work, in theory...
Theoretically, I could burn three rounds of Performance that i won't use [until I get a masterpiece or i need to use Countersong/Distraction] to borrow an ally's spell.
I don't think Mesmerist's count as "arcane" casters for the purpose of take that prestige class.

So, for now- let's think of this as a possible Arcane Trickster build.

[Penumbra Bard]

I think that bard 5/Arcane Trickster 5 is better than taking a dip in Brawler, mainly because you don't lose any caster levels. Whenever you dip away from a caster class, you should consider whether what you'll get is worth delaying higher level spells by one level. If you dip Brawler, you delay spells by one level and delay entry into Arcane Trickster by 1 level (unless you use Accomplished Sneak Attacker, but then any bard archetype could enter Arcane Trickster that way). You would gain 1BaB, 1d6 sneak attack that you can get by Sandman 5 and Acc. Sneak Attacker and Brawler's Cunning. I don't feel the trade-off is worth it.

Also while Fascinate/Slumber Song/Stealspell are useless in combat, they will have some use out of combat. You could use Slumber Song to avoid awkward encounters, e.g. put to sleep some guards so your party can break into a nobleman's house. If you party needs multiple castings of a spell that someone knows but has only one prepares or few remaining spellslots, Stealspell you allow you to cast it in your ally's stead. So they may not be earth-shattering abilities, but I could see you getting some use out of them.

When fighting, unless you get a really good masterpiece and focus on it, it may not be worth it starting performances. But you'll still have bard spells and sneak attack, so you should still find some useful role in battle.

[Selvaxri]

I think i may have found a way to make use of my performance- be it Spellsteal or Fascinate- until i learn a Masterpiece: Spellsong.

I do want to try to get up to 7/8th lvl Bard to get Move-action Performance and an iterative attack; that i don't know if Arcane Trickster gets me to an iterative attack faster.

Bard 1> Spellsong
B2> -
Bard 3> Extra Performance?
Bard 4> [Masterpiece]
Bard 5> Accomplished Sneak Attacker
B6> -
Bard 7> ?
Bard 8/Arcane Trickster 9> ?

Unless there's a definite advantage to getting Arcane Trickster early, let's try to stick with Bard as long as needed.

[Penumbra Bard]

I'm afraid I don't see how Spellsong is useful, could you elaborate? If you take 5/5 Bard/Arcane Trickster, then you won't get your next iterative (Arcane Trickster has 1/2 BaB). However, Arcane Trickster does advance sneak attack and spellcasting, allows trap disabling and pickpocketing at a distance, at lvl 3 you can 1/day declare a melee or ranged attack to be a sneak attack, without flanking etc, and at lvl 5 you can cast 3 spells /day with both Silent and Still Spell metamagics.

I'd say, if you're not fussed about performing in combat or iterative attacks, then going Arcane Trickster is the better option. If you don't have iterative attacks, a good option is to have natural attacks instead. Various races get natural attacks (Catfolk, Kobold, Tengu, Skinwalker, Half-Orc, Lizardfolk etc). All primary natural attacks are at full BaB, secondary at BaB-5, it's a pretty good option for bards.

There are some interesting masterpieces you could look at:
1)Arrowsong's Lament (Oratory), 3 ranks: Add an extra spell to your spells known for 1 day
2)Endless Waltz of the Eldest (Dance, String), 4 ranks: Heals ally 3hp /round and if affected ally heals someone, they heal an extra 3hp. So heals max of 6hp/round between two people.
3)Hymn of Restorative Harmonics (Sing, Wind), 6 ranks: Gives all allies in 30ft a reroll to end ongoing debilitating effect
4)Legato Piece on the Infernal Bargain (String), 11 ranks: Probably not get in PFS, but this allows you to cast Planar Ally.
5)Rondeau of Heavenly Order (Sing), 4 ranks: Enemies that fail save must move in straight lines, an unusual CC effect.
6)Stone Face (Comedy, Oratory), 7ranks: Stone to Flesh
7)Symphony of the Elysian Heart (Keyboard, Wind), 7 ranks: Freedom of Movement for all allies
8)Tales of Twisting Steel (Act, Oratory), 3 ranks: Shield Other
9)The Dance of 23 Steps (Dance), 4 ranks: 1+1/4 ranks of Dance as dodge bonus until next round. Is a free action to activate!
10)The Rheumy Refrain (Sing), 5 ranks: 1 subject if it fails will save must make concentration check to do more than a single attack or a single move action. Interesting debuff.
11)Triple Time (Percussion, String, Wind), 3 ranks: Increase ally's base speed by 10 feet for 1 hour.

Also, how attached are you to Nagaji?

[Selvaxri]

Penumbra Bard wrote:

I'm afraid I don't see how Spellsong is useful, could you elaborate?

Did you not read the description?

Spellsong helps me "hide" my spellcasting in a performance; second if I have a spell with a "concentration" duration- i can use my performance to further extend the duration without actually concentration.

It's a decent feat when i don't plan using my performances much.

Quote:

I'd say, if you're not fussed about performing in combat or iterative attacks, then going Arcane Trickster is the better option. If you don't have iterative attacks, a good option is to have natural attacks instead. Various races get natural attacks (Catfolk, Kobold, Tengu, Skinwalker, Half-Orc, Lizardfolk etc). All primary natural attacks are at full BaB, secondary at BaB-5, it's a pretty good option for bards.

Half of those races aren't even PFS legal, and with Improved Natural Attack not a PFS legal feat, i don't care much for going the "natural attack" route... unless i can do the crazy and combine Arcane Trickster with Dragon Disciple.

I'm not too dedicated to being a Nagaji with this build anymore; i may go Nagaji with my other "sneak attacker" build i have rumination in place of this build.
So, any PFS legal race is open... i do have a spare Grippli boon, but i'd rather save that if my Grippli Brawler/Cavalier/Fighter/Rogue dies a sudden and unsalvagable death.

As for the Masterpieces, i may not take many.
I may just stick with Battle Hymn of the People's Revolt for Precise Strike; and Life Budding in Salted Earth for Fast Healing.
Triplet Time would be a good early Masterpiece
In regards to Masterpieces, I'd rather not stretch out my skill points and keep to just a few Perform. All the aforementioned are "Wind" performances.
Legato is a nice Masterpiece, but it's a late level masterpiece- with Perform (String) 11 Ranks