Loosing dex bonus while riding clinged to a rider?


Rules Questions


When a PC is clinged to a rider on a mount behind the saddle, does that PC still have her dex bonus when hit by a NPC rogue's arrow?

In other words: Would the rogue NPC cause sneak attack damage?


There is no rule saying that they lose their dex bonus, but then there are no rules dealing with multiple riders at all, so it's a GM call.

Personally I would look at the fact that there is no general rule about losing dex bonuses when in awkward situations and say they keep it.


There's a general rule about losing Dex when using Acrobatics to navigate precarious surfaces, that's about it. It's also not very well defined or understood.

Liberty's Edge

Probably I would apply to both riders the penalty for being squeezed.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Probably I would apply to both riders the penalty for being squeezed.

Normally, they'd be sharing a large space. Plenty of room for two mediums.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

By RAW the non mounted person can't end his movement sharing a square with another creature.

If the non mounted person somehow ends up in the sharing a space with a large (and another medium creature) then the squeezing penalty very much seems to be the correct effect.

If this is a particularly spacious mount (capable of fitting extra passengers without penalty) then you should probably treat it as a vehicle instead of mount.

Liberty's Edge

Maezer wrote:

By RAW the non mounted person can't end his movement sharing a square with another creature.

If the non mounted person somehow ends up in the sharing a space with a large (and another medium creature) then the squeezing penalty very much seems to be the correct effect.

If this is a particularly spacious mount (capable of fitting extra passengers without penalty) then you should probably treat it as a vehicle instead of mount.

Common sense kind of trumps all this, so rule 0 should apply. Two people riding a horse is not unreasonable, although it will encumber the horse further.

There is no rule that a rider looses their dexterity bonus when mounted. I guess it is assumed that the rider can dodge to some extent. I see no difference if their is a second rider.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
RedDogMT wrote:

Common sense kind of trumps all this, so rule 0 should apply. Two people riding a horse is not unreasonable, although it will encumber the horse further.

I find the idea that 2 people can ride and fight from a horse without any difficulty similarly unbelievable. I think you'll find a reason most calvary units throughout history have gone with 1 rider per horse. Once they start carrying their dismounted comrades their fighting ability was considerably diminished.

The idea that having 2 human sized creatures on horseback fighting with less penalties than 2 human sized creatures fighting within a 5 foot square I find beyond the pale. If a military wanted multiple fighting men per horse, they almost invariably went with vehicles.


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Good thing Pathfinder isn't supposed to represent an accurate simulation then.


To clarify the situation I faced as a DM:
Two people rode a camel. The cleric cast a airwalk on the camel to cross a ravine. The mage was sitting behind the cleric. I ruled that they were in a grapple not to fall down. However they were allowed to let go of the grapple to cast and act. As the relevant concentration check is DC 5 I skipped it for simplicity.

In midair they were attacked. The NPC leader in the fight was JAMIRAH Lamia matriarch rogue 8 (Pathfnder RPG Bestiary 2 175) from the Shifting Sands adventure). As the PC was obviously casting several high damage AE spells, the NPC group leader ordered his two followers to also shout at the caster. In round one both followers missed and the lamia hastened the group. In round two both followers hit with the heavy crossbows and the lamia hit 4 times among one was a crit.

Going below 0 to -12 the caster dropped nearly 30 meters. The cleric followed 2 round later :P

However, as the cleric had a ring of feather fall he survived the drop and stabilized at -7.

Rescuing the all prisoners in the adventure the mage was given access to a cauldron of resurrection for free which he rejected leaving the table without a word…

Liberty's Edge

Thomas Koehler wrote:


Rescuing the all prisoners in the adventure the mage was given access to a cauldron of resurrection for free which he rejected leaving the table without a word…

Sad, I hope he will accept his character death.

I stay of my opinion: the characters are squeezed. Or count as grappled if you prefer.
Neither denies you dex bonus to AC, they only reduce it.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Thomas Koehler wrote:


Rescuing the all prisoners in the adventure the mage was given access to a cauldron of resurrection for free which he rejected leaving the table without a word…

Sad, I hope he will accept his character death.

I stay of my opinion: the characters are squeezed. Or count as grappled if you prefer.
Neither denies you dex bonus to AC, they only reduce it.

On Squeezing the rules state: To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.


Back to the general discussion:
As I understand the rules there are two sides to the coin. Either you deny a dex bonus or you loose it.

Denied dex bonus:
1. The attacker is invisible
2. The target is blinded
3. The target is cowering (e.g. from fear spell)
4. The target is flat-footed
5. The target is helpless (e.g. due to being paralyzed)
6. The target is pinned
7. The target is stunned

Lost dex bonus:
1. Running w/o the Run feat
2. Squeezing through a gap less than half your space's width
3. Off-balance when fighting underwater after a failed Swim check
4. Using Acrobatics to cross a narrow surface or uneven ground
5. When climbing
6. Attacker makes a successful feint
7. Attacker is using certain feats (e.g. disengaging shot)
8. Attacker has certain class abilities (e.g. prescient attack)

In D&D 3.5 (not Pathfinder!) the dex bonus is also lost when the target is grappling someone other than the attacker. This is what I was using as a reference. Especially, since they were flying high above ground (and the grapple variant pinned also denies the dex bonus).

Whoever has ridden on a motor cycle behind the driver knows that holding tight requires effort and aims at both not falling off and actively clinging together.

So all variants in the debate so far (grapple, squeeze and pinned) would have all triggered that the dex bonus was not applicable.

Liberty's Edge

Maezer wrote:
RedDogMT wrote:

Common sense kind of trumps all this, so rule 0 should apply. Two people riding a horse is not unreasonable, although it will encumber the horse further.

I find the idea that 2 people can ride and fight from a horse without any difficulty similarly unbelievable. I think you'll find a reason most calvary units throughout history have gone with 1 rider per horse. Once they start carrying their dismounted comrades their fighting ability was considerably diminished.

The idea that having 2 human sized creatures on horseback fighting with less penalties than 2 human sized creatures fighting within a 5 foot square I find beyond the pale. If a military wanted multiple fighting men per horse, they almost invariably went with vehicles.

No one here really said anything to the contrary before you brought it up. I only pointed out that it was unreasonable of you to say that two people could not ride a horse during combat due to a game rule.

As to your second comment, there are no rules about two people fighting from the same horse, so it would be up to the GM to decide how to handle it...but if it was me, I would probably give the riders a penalty to hit and defend. Maybe -2 or -3 on both and see how it goes.


It was a camel not a horse...

Liberty's Edge

Thomas Koehler wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Thomas Koehler wrote:


Rescuing the all prisoners in the adventure the mage was given access to a cauldron of resurrection for free which he rejected leaving the table without a word…

Sad, I hope he will accept his character death.

I stay of my opinion: the characters are squeezed. Or count as grappled if you prefer.
Neither denies you dex bonus to AC, they only reduce it.

On Squeezing the rules state: To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

There is a "bit" more text than that:

PRD wrote:


Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

I referring to this part: "while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC."

If you share the space on a riding beast meant to accommodate a single rider with another creature you are both in a area that is "as least half as wide as your normal space" but that isn't meant to accommodate two creatures.
Using those modifiers can be a possible solution.

Thomas Koehler wrote:


So all variants in the debate so far (grapple, squeeze and pinned) would have all triggered that the dex bonus was not applicable.

A grappled creature don't lose his dexterity bonus, and you admit to knowing that. Squeezed, only if you are squeezed in a space that is less than half your normal space, a large mount for 2 medium person is hardly that. Pinned is pinned and you can do very little when pinned.

it seem that you purposefully choose the worst interpretations possible.

Thomas Koehler wrote:
It was a camel not a horse...

Still a large animal.

And 2 persons riding a camel seem pretty comfortable in this image
Actually, it seem failry common


@Diego:
1. Would you add the squeeze penalty to the usual mounted combat modifiers?
2. I was unfortunately unaware that in D&D 3.5 and not Pathfinder the dex bonus is also lost when the target is grappling someone other than the attacker


No. There is no penalty in the game, so there is no need to add one. They are not considered squeezed as the game deals in abstractions and even when huddled together, they are considered to be in their own separate squares.


Reading the argument above, I think in the situation under debate the dex bonus should be applied.

Instead I would now apply the DC 10 + spell level concentration check for casting spells while mounted as per the casting while mounted rules for the cleric and the mage.

Casting Spells While Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).

I would even argue that clinging to the rider AND being 30 m in the air DC 15 + spell level concentration check is an option to consider.

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