
Stephen Ede |
Snake Style - (relevant section)
While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent targets you with a melee or ranged attack, you can spend an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check. You can use the result as your AC or touch AC against that attack.
Scorching Ray fires multiple beams but they hit simultaneously and for purposes of Sneak Attack have been ruled as a single attack despite you having to roll for each Ray.
So if you target someone with three Rays and they use the Snake Style ability to replace their Touch AC with their Sense Motive does the result apply to one ray or all three rays?

Stephen Ede |
Except you only get Sneak Attack on 1 Ray, even if you have Greater Invisibility.
If they were really separate attacks you would get sneak attack on each ray.
And the spell specifies they are all simultaneous.
" Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously."
So each ray requires a separate roll to hit but they all hit simultaneously and can only do sneak attack once. Which means they mix the characteristics of a single attack and multiple attacks. :-(

Stephen Ede |
Would you have one person's Snake Style work on all 3 rays if they were targeting 3 different people Steve? I wouldn't.
No because Snake Style only works on the creature using Snake Style.
In the same way that a tail sweep that attack all creature in an area would not allow sharing of AC. Even though it would be one attack.Do I don't see the point as relevant

avr |

The point I meant to make is that once you see the scorching ray targeting multiple people, the bit about it being one attack breaks down entirely.
The anti-sneak attack on multiple targets comes from the fear of large numbers that rogues could occasionally generate. Rather than try to extend that (IMO, mistaken) ruling I'd seek to limit it.

SheepishEidolon |

If they were really separate attacks you would get sneak attack on each ray.
And the spell specifies they are all simultaneous.
The wording 'simultaneously' probably just means that you have to use all rays within the same round (opposed to a spell like Chill Touch) and have to decide about targeting first (opposed to a regular full-attack).

Claxon |

I too would run this as Snake Style deflecting only 1 ray, not multiple.
The rule for sneak attack was mostly because people were afraid of a rogue easily dealing a lot of sneak attack damage. Think of it more as the rogue can't concentrate enough to get multiple sneak attacks in such a short time frame.

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I would not conflate a ruling made to limit the power of sneak attack with anything else. The one sneak attack per spell ruling was made, in part, because people were trying to use the old version of the Weird Words ability for Soundstriker Bard to get many more than three sneak attacks from a standard action. I think it's safe to assume that ruling is specific to sneak attack only and shouldn't be applied elsewhere in the game.

Talonhawke |

I would not conflate a ruling made to limit the power of sneak attack with anything else. The one sneak attack per spell ruling was made, in part, because people were trying to use the old version of the Weird Words ability for Soundstriker Bard to get many more than three sneak attacks from a standard action. I think it's safe to assume that ruling is specific to sneak attack only and shouldn't be applied elsewhere in the game.
Except it already is. Look at every ability that lets you fire more than one missile. They all limit sneak attack to one attack.

Talonhawke |

That's not applying it elsewhere. That is what the FAQ is about. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
I'm saying don't apply a rule about sneak attack to anything else. You're saying a rule about sneak attack is being applied to sneak attack?
Sorry I misunderstood you I thought you were meaning only looking a the FAQ in the context of spells.

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The rules are not written with some kind of programmed based interpreter. They are designed to be read and interpreted by a person.
Having sneak attack work on each isn't allowed because sneak attack from invisibility isn't supposed to be exploited by "simultaneous" attacks.
Having snake style only work on one attack is because snake style isn't meant to be exploited by having "simultaneous" attacks.

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Ferious Thune wrote:Sorry I misunderstood you I thought you were meaning only looking a the FAQ in the context of spells.That's not applying it elsewhere. That is what the FAQ is about. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
I'm saying don't apply a rule about sneak attack to anything else. You're saying a rule about sneak attack is being applied to sneak attack?
No problem. That FAQ was brought up in an attempt to argue that because the spells are sinultaneous and can only grant one sneak attack, then Snake Style must apply to All of the Rays, because they're simultaneous. I don't agree with that. The FAQ was made to limit sneak attacks and not meant to be applied as a broad rule affecting other parts of the game. It affects sneak attacks anytime a simultaneous spell/effect is involved, but it does not affect how things other than sneak attack work against those spells/effects.

Talonhawke |

The rules are not written with some kind of programmed based interpreter. They are designed to be read and interpreted by a person.
Having sneak attack work on each isn't allowed because sneak attack from invisibility isn't supposed to be exploited by "simultaneous" attacks.
Having snake style only work on one attack is because snake style isn't meant to be exploited by having "simultaneous" attacks.
Exactly though I can see reasoning from a standpoint of I'm making it harder to hit me against something coming at me all at once. But it kinda falls under the same issue as with sneak attack even if if they all come out at once and you attack multiple targets you still only get sneak once.
I could actually see this use both more sneak attack s and more dodging being good uses for the hero point or stamina sub-systems. Allowing limited expenditures to gain single round boost like this for these and other situations.