Scorching Ray vs Snake Style


Rules Questions


Snake Style - (relevant section)
While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent targets you with a melee or ranged attack, you can spend an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check. You can use the result as your AC or touch AC against that attack.

Scorching Ray fires multiple beams but they hit simultaneously and for purposes of Sneak Attack have been ruled as a single attack despite you having to roll for each Ray.

So if you target someone with three Rays and they use the Snake Style ability to replace their Touch AC with their Sense Motive does the result apply to one ray or all three rays?

Scarab Sages

It should work against only one ray. While the three rays are part of the same action, they are separate attacks, with separate attack rolls, that can even target different creatures if the caster wants.


Except you only get Sneak Attack on 1 Ray, even if you have Greater Invisibility.
If they were really separate attacks you would get sneak attack on each ray.
And the spell specifies they are all simultaneous.

" Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously."

So each ray requires a separate roll to hit but they all hit simultaneously and can only do sneak attack once. Which means they mix the characteristics of a single attack and multiple attacks. :-(


Would you have one person's Snake Style work on all 3 rays if they were targeting 3 different people Steve? I wouldn't.


avr wrote:
Would you have one person's Snake Style work on all 3 rays if they were targeting 3 different people Steve? I wouldn't.

No because Snake Style only works on the creature using Snake Style.

In the same way that a tail sweep that attack all creature in an area would not allow sharing of AC. Even though it would be one attack.

Do I don't see the point as relevant


The point I meant to make is that once you see the scorching ray targeting multiple people, the bit about it being one attack breaks down entirely.

The anti-sneak attack on multiple targets comes from the fear of large numbers that rogues could occasionally generate. Rather than try to extend that (IMO, mistaken) ruling I'd seek to limit it.


I assume all three rays while occuring simultaneously can hit one person at three different locations, like, head, torso and arm.


Stephen Ede wrote:

If they were really separate attacks you would get sneak attack on each ray.

And the spell specifies they are all simultaneous.

The wording 'simultaneously' probably just means that you have to use all rays within the same round (opposed to a spell like Chill Touch) and have to decide about targeting first (opposed to a regular full-attack).


I too would run this as Snake Style deflecting only 1 ray, not multiple.

The rule for sneak attack was mostly because people were afraid of a rogue easily dealing a lot of sneak attack damage. Think of it more as the rogue can't concentrate enough to get multiple sneak attacks in such a short time frame.


Keep in mind though Scorching Ray only allows one AoO for the act of firing multiple rays not one for each ray putting it in the aiming and firing at the same time.

Scarab Sages

I would not conflate a ruling made to limit the power of sneak attack with anything else. The one sneak attack per spell ruling was made, in part, because people were trying to use the old version of the Weird Words ability for Soundstriker Bard to get many more than three sneak attacks from a standard action. I think it's safe to assume that ruling is specific to sneak attack only and shouldn't be applied elsewhere in the game.


Ferious Thune wrote:
I would not conflate a ruling made to limit the power of sneak attack with anything else. The one sneak attack per spell ruling was made, in part, because people were trying to use the old version of the Weird Words ability for Soundstriker Bard to get many more than three sneak attacks from a standard action. I think it's safe to assume that ruling is specific to sneak attack only and shouldn't be applied elsewhere in the game.

Except it already is. Look at every ability that lets you fire more than one missile. They all limit sneak attack to one attack.

Scarab Sages

That's not applying it elsewhere. That is what the FAQ is about. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I'm saying don't apply a rule about sneak attack to anything else. You're saying a rule about sneak attack is being applied to sneak attack?


Ferious Thune wrote:

That's not applying it elsewhere. That is what the FAQ is about. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I'm saying don't apply a rule about sneak attack to anything else. You're saying a rule about sneak attack is being applied to sneak attack?

Sorry I misunderstood you I thought you were meaning only looking a the FAQ in the context of spells.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The rules are not written with some kind of programmed based interpreter. They are designed to be read and interpreted by a person.

Having sneak attack work on each isn't allowed because sneak attack from invisibility isn't supposed to be exploited by "simultaneous" attacks.

Having snake style only work on one attack is because snake style isn't meant to be exploited by having "simultaneous" attacks.

Scarab Sages

Talonhawke wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:

That's not applying it elsewhere. That is what the FAQ is about. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I'm saying don't apply a rule about sneak attack to anything else. You're saying a rule about sneak attack is being applied to sneak attack?

Sorry I misunderstood you I thought you were meaning only looking a the FAQ in the context of spells.

No problem. That FAQ was brought up in an attempt to argue that because the spells are sinultaneous and can only grant one sneak attack, then Snake Style must apply to All of the Rays, because they're simultaneous. I don't agree with that. The FAQ was made to limit sneak attacks and not meant to be applied as a broad rule affecting other parts of the game. It affects sneak attacks anytime a simultaneous spell/effect is involved, but it does not affect how things other than sneak attack work against those spells/effects.


James Risner wrote:

The rules are not written with some kind of programmed based interpreter. They are designed to be read and interpreted by a person.

Having sneak attack work on each isn't allowed because sneak attack from invisibility isn't supposed to be exploited by "simultaneous" attacks.

Having snake style only work on one attack is because snake style isn't meant to be exploited by having "simultaneous" attacks.

Exactly though I can see reasoning from a standpoint of I'm making it harder to hit me against something coming at me all at once. But it kinda falls under the same issue as with sneak attack even if if they all come out at once and you attack multiple targets you still only get sneak once.

Mildy off-topic Thoughts:
Warning the following section is purely musings of Talonhawke and should not be considered as rules information. Consult your GM before assuming any of the following is functional for your game. Side effects may vary.

I could actually see this use both more sneak attack s and more dodging being good uses for the hero point or stamina sub-systems. Allowing limited expenditures to gain single round boost like this for these and other situations.

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