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Hooray, an experiment! I'm pretty excited about the prospect of a 1-5 series of quests that's replayable by first-level characters. The quests themselves look like fun, too!
Note: despite whatever the PDF tells you, this quest arc isn't replayable by higher-level characters, only by level 1s. Don't trust the PDF! It lies!
I'm only partway through reading this for my game Saturday, so here are some partial observations, and I'll leave more as I find them.
First quest, Fragments
Page 7: it looks as though A2 and A3 have been misplaced on the map. A2 is obviously a hallway and not the big sitting room thing, but there are two options. It looks like A2 is the right hallway, and A3 shouldn't be in the bottom-left, it should be in the bottom-right corner.
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Second quest, Inkstains
I see how this is supposed to work, but am I missing a note about how many guards there are supposed to be in case combat does break out? Say, if the PCs sneak in, are caught, and don't allow themselves to be escorted off the premeses.
I see the note about one per student plus several others, but both the number of students and the exact number "several" means seem undefined.
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Can I just say how much I love having the stat blocks in the appendix broken out by quest? It's fantastic.
I also appreciate the note that PCs still get the wand on the chronicle sheet even if they speak Tien. (from Yue Xin, right column of page 17.)
Speaking of Yue Xin, I wonder how many fortune cookies I can manage to eat before Saturday morning. Maybe I'll dig some gems out of a fortune cookie database instead.
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Skipping ahead to make handouts--for the Teahouse, the Jade Ogre Style moves are available as "attack actions" and it doesn't say "standard actions". I believe this means if a participating PC has somehow managed to get themselves multiple melee attacks in a way that work with unarmed strikes (monk flurry? brawler's flurry? two-weapon fighting?) they could make multiple Jade Ogre moves in a round. Am I reading that right?
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Speaking of Yue Xin, I wonder how many fortune cookies I can manage to eat before Saturday morning. Maybe I'll dig some gems out of a fortune cookie database instead.
And now i feel the need for fortune cookies at my table for the game!
I would agree that the Jade Ogre Style is an attack usage so would give options for multi attacking. Also would be a good demonstration of the style for the judges.
For fragments there is a statue on the map so it does feel like the south east is the closest to the description given. Any thoughts on the alarm proximity distance - thinking in front of either of the North/South doors?
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Hmmm. I'm not finding much on the fall of Imperial Lung Wa. I don't suppose anyone happens to know off-hand if any details of what happened to it are floating around in books or scenarios?
I'm looking at the princess and realizing that she could probably write a book (and may yet, with Mai Chun's help) on what happened, but the most detailed I've ever been able to find was something to the effect of "Aroden died, corrupt and bureaucratic Lung Wa fell apart, the end."
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Hmmm. I'm not finding much on the fall of Imperial Lung Wa. I don't suppose anyone happens to know off-hand if any details of what happened to it are floating around in books or scenarios?
I'm looking at the princess and realizing that she could probably write a book (and may yet, with Mai Chun's help) on what happened, but the most detailed I've ever been able to find was something to the effect of "Aroden died, corrupt and bureaucratic Lung Wa fell apart, the end."
I think most of what's been published is in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer, particularly the timeline at pp. 15-17, the individual entries on the various Successor States in the Regions of the Dragon Empires chapter, and the material on Lung Wa and other lost empires on p. 46. There's not, I don't believe, a single source of details, but a pretty good picture can kind of be woven up by inference and gestalt from this and other material.
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I think most of what's been published is in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer, particularly the timeline at pp. 15-17, the individual entries on the various Successor States in the Regions of the Dragon Empires chapter, and the material on Lung Wa and other lost empires on p. 46. There's not, I don't believe, a single source of details, but a pretty good picture can kind of be woven up by inference and gestalt from this and other material.Hmmm. I'm not finding much on the fall of Imperial Lung Wa. I don't suppose anyone happens to know off-hand if any details of what happened to it are floating around in books or scenarios?
I'm looking at the princess and realizing that she could probably write a book (and may yet, with Mai Chun's help) on what happened, but the most detailed I've ever been able to find was something to the effect of "Aroden died, corrupt and bureaucratic Lung Wa fell apart, the end."
Yeah, there are hints of the larger structural problems, mostly peasants being abused and bureaucrats being corrupt, but having read through the entire Dragon Empires Primer there's no sign of how, exactly, Aroden's death precipitated Lung Wa's downfall, any named revolts, that sort of thing. No signs of the events that our princess might have lived through. It's fine, I can make stuff up that will be internally consistent, there's just no guarantee it will continue to be consistent with published adventures! Thank you for the advice, in any event.
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Speaking of Yue Xin, I wonder how many fortune cookies I can manage to eat before Saturday morning. Maybe I'll dig some gems out of a fortune cookie database instead.Any thoughts on the alarm proximity distance - thinking in front of either of the North/South doors?
That one's described in the room description, although not the trap stat block:
"When a creature touches the southern door, the statue seems to momentarily animate. It snarls, points its sword at the intruder, and releases a gout of fire from its mouth."
So whoever touches the door sets it off. Would include disable device attempts, although most people end up trying the doorknob first in my experience?
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All right, finished running it! My collected observations:
First quest, Fragments
Second quest, Inkstains
Third quest, Constellation
Fourth quest, Teahouse
Fifth quest, Prophecy
Overall Notes
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All right, I still need to read through this in detail, but I am very glad that all the flip-mats are in print!
Terminalmancer, how much longer does than five hours does this run?
Depends on how you roleplay I think.
Each quest seems to be structured in a way that it has at least one roleplay encounter and a combat-ish encounter. Exploration, particularly in quests 1 and 5, can add time on top of that, especially if your party actually spends time investigating the environment. I fast-narrated the exploration of part 5 and limited the roleplay in parts 3, 4, and 5 and still came in at 5.5 hours. If you really want to give it room to breathe, I'd say aim for 6 hours or so (including mustering).
Keeping it quick: if you think you can be disciplined, time it and give yourself 15 or 20 minutes per roleplay encounter. You probably also want to limit exploration... it'd be difficult to limit the exploration in part 1 while still including the trap, but you could plan in advance to narrate the exploration of part 5. That might bring it down to 4 1/2 or 5 hours.
I'm not usually a speed-run GM so perhaps there may be other tricks you can make use of!
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Fourth quest, Teahouse
Another very awesome idea! I love the school-vs.-school battle.
The required number of successes seems way too high. My party in high tier did not succeed despite using Jade Ogre style moves exclusively, with one exception. And I was giving them extra points for crits, too.
There really absolutely should have been a jade ogre style handout. I made one, it's fine, but the quest just doesn't work if you don't have handouts.
I am prepping this and agree, the number seems way too high. Even in low tier, a level 1 Amari could one shot each monk for a total of 4 points by power attacking with "Ogre Swings his Club." The numbers needs to be, like, halved.
Doesn't even make sense. "Wow, that foreigner just decimated those guys with that new combat style demonstrating it's power and ability. It sucks and we'll never go there!"
Any ideas on how to make this work?
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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That wouldn't be a very good demonstration of the style. Amiri just used her own strength to win, not necessarily the style.
You should probably have Jiang Fei suggest the PCs demonstrate each of the principal motions at least once, and emphasize it is as much a demonstration as a combat. That'll get your players closer to the right track and make it more likely they succeed.
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In hindsight, I might have had Jiang Fei talk up the need to drag out the fight to give a good demonstration. I probably also would have had her talk up the rules, explaining them as unwritten rules and so on and so forth. We were in a rush at that point and I just went with the box text for the most part.
But I'm not sure how much that's metagaming to make the PCs succeed; the penalties for failure are incredibly mild. I'm not too too worried if they fail, either. And dragging out the fight more also makes it more likely that you run over time, so it's not exactly a clear win for the quest arc overall.
Decisions, decisions...
I'll be interested to hear how this goes for other GMs.
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That wouldn't be a very good demonstration of the style. Amiri just used her own strength to win, not necessarily the style.
[..]
In the defense of the brute force approach, Jade Ogre style does seem to be nothing more than the tactical application of brute force. If you smash someone's platform, they don't have a platform from which to strike you. If you smash the part that makes them move, they can't move. And now you're really good at smashing, so you can just smash them up high where it hurts!
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@Termanal Mancer: You requested a handout for the Jade Ogre style? I wrote this one up in like, five minutes. Hope it helps you and anyone else. I added a few lines outside of what is in the scenario as to why the PCs have this ability for 1 encounter then promptly lose it.
Thanks! I actually made one myself for this quest arc, and uploaded it to the PFSPrep site:
http://www.pfsprep.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewforum.php?352
(So that was more a note for the authors/developers... there will be people running this cold, and it's not going to go well without a handout.)
But more options is always good! Why don't you add a link to yours there, as well?
Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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I'm a little late to the party largely because I was sick all last week. Still, Terminalmancer, your prep helped me run 15 quests of House of Harmonious Wisdom last weekend. The printouts that I made also helped three other GMs who ran it at different times than me at Anime Detour. We ran it continuously through all the slots this weekend.
Keeping in mind reports of the quests running long in the first two parts, I looked for ways to streamline the runs while keeping fun high. I ran the first five quests I did in five hours -- and that includes me having to stop after every quest to integrate a few brand new players as people left for an hour to go grab food or tour the dealers room and then come back. If I was running this at a game store with a single set of players who knew what they were doing, I'm pretty sure that this whole thing would run in 4.5 hours or less at low tier.
Here are my tips for streamlining:
OVERALL
Practice saying the names. Look up modern Chinese pronunciations, and just say them several times.
Read through everything in advance a couple times. Figure out personalities, voices, everything. If you KNOW this, your confidence will lead to a faster run.
Fragments
1) Sum up multiple rooms at once as they are exploring the ruined noble estate in 'Fragments.' "You pass through the remains of what once was the kitchen, pantry and servants quarters. Everywhere you see evidence of a bear having been in here. The pantry door is ripped off its hinges, and tapestries and curtains have been clawed..."
2) Have your party members establish a door opening procedure in advance. If they are detecting for traps and magic everywhere, tell them, "Okay, I will keep this in mind as we move forward." This way, you're not stopping every 5 seconds for "I look for traps and detect magic!"
3) Speaking of this, a complaint. I have to assume that they did not want Tier 1-2 groups to detect the Burning Hands trap at all. I did actually have a rogue with trapspotting roll a nat 20 and manage to detect it this weekend, but otherwise just expect every low tier group to get caught by it. Why set a trap with a DC that high in a tier 1-2?
Inkstains
1) Exploration & Tour
Label your map with names of all the locations. I have the Village Square flipmap, and I labeled every building and the fountain with offical looking names right on the map. I figure that a school this prestigious would have plaques on the buildings. There are three classrooms, so I gave each one a focus of a different subject. Having a prelabeled map means that you are not flipping back and forth to figure out what each location is, and it helps your players orientate themselves faster.
For Jianghong, I summoned up the playboy prankster character I've seen in so many Wuxia films. I had him ask the party, "Hello, are you prospective students?" When they inevitably lie to him, I have him grin. "Sure, you are. But I'm stuck here on door duty so I might as well give you the tour anyway, right?"
My Jianghong peppered his tour with tips like, "The School of the Affinities teaches upstanding youth such as myself classes in Poetry, Calligraphy and Politics -- all the things that young nobles need to claim their proper place in society. Things like sneaking donkeys into the Dean's office or putting fire crackers in the fountain," he pauses to grin at the party, waggling his eyebrows at any cute females, "that we learn on our own."
Because he's not exactly the most reliable of tour guides, he breezes the party through the tour as I point to each building, explaining its purpose through Jianghong's eyes.
2) Chase Scene
I have to agree with Terminalmancer that the chase mechanic is a little awkward, but it led to hilarious moments. My favorite was when Jirielle the swashbuckler rolled a nat 1 on her acrobatics as she was leaping out of an office window to catch him.
Swashbuckler: "Ouch! I add my Derring-Do and..." She rolls a six.
Me: "That's a six. Roll again."
Swashbuckler: "Okay." She rolls another six. She then proceeded to roll two more, taking her horrible failure to a 30+ acro roll! The party is dying of laughter.
Me: "You leap out the window, catch the edge of Jianghong's rope, run up the side of the building to backflip, bounce off the hedge, and do a perfect landing in front of him."
____
Have to leave for work! I will add more feedback on the other quests in a bit.
Hmm
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Ran it yesterday, was able to get it done in 4 hours on the nose. I don't suggest it. It felt extremely pressured (on me) to try and keep the table on track and from doing almost anything distracting other than one short break (bathrooms and such are needed). I'd highly recommend at least 5 if not 6 hours as a more likely time to get them all done.
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All right, finished running it! My collected observations:
Great summary!
First quest, Fragments
Page 7: A2 and A3 have almost certainly been misplaced on the map.
I think the problems with directions in this quest are best resolved by having north be to the right of the map page, i.e turn the compass rose 90 degrees clockwise.
Third quest, Constellation
Also fails to include a number of guards in case the PCs fight them. Yeah, I get that it's not supposed to be a combat encounter, but you just have to know there are groups that will turn it into one.
It says the guards are posted in groups of six.
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Venture-Captain, Isles—Online
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Ran this last weekend at Low tier, came in just a shade over 4h -probably should have been a TPK in the last fight, but i was feeling nice (and they did have one parties favour) so just woke up sore & bruised. much hilarity at the scorpions fight, we hammed it up karate kid style, and the scorpions were presented as 'patched over' cobra kai..
The PathfinderWiki product page for House of Harmonious Wisdom has been updated to include all themes referenced in other Paizo publications, along with all the Flip-Mats used in it. Take a look!
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I think one of the wrinkles to this scenario is the fact that, apart from Mai Chun, Yue Xin, and perhaps Jianghong (no stat block for him), no one speaks Taldane. If you're running this for 1st level characters, and no one hails from the Dragon Empires, that can be a serious drawback. I'm assuming that all signs and notes NOT written by Mai Chun are in Tien.
Worth noting to your players before starting the adventure, at the least.
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I ran this one today! It went about 4.5 hours. I felt like I could have squeezed it into a 4 hour slot if needed, but it was nice not to be rushed.
The number of points for Teahouse is way too high for a 4-player, high tier party. Each player would need to earn 4 points, but the opponents can't take that many hits. The only way is for PCs to start making Acrobatics checks, but this is tricky to encourage them to do. Next time I run this (at PaizoCon, as it turns out!), I think I'll have the Scorpion school students start jumping on tables and tumbling around and describe the crowd as loving it. Hopefully, that will encourage the PCs to do likewise.
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Glad I'm not the only one who thought Teahouse was tricky. My group only got 8 (of the 10 needed). That 4th move, combined with sneak attack dice, was a one-shot KO for the low tier warriors.
I added in a few things to make it easier for the players. Basically I had her say "Please, try to show off my fighting style as much as possible. While ending real fights early is great, we need to give people a show or else they won't get excited about my dojo. Also, if you can tumble around a lot, that is always a crowed pleaser, and my school does teach that."
That way they know what is expected of them, and if they still go nothing but 'ogre swings club' with sneak attack, is their own fault for not listening.
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Follow up question - in Prophecy it says "If the PCs gave away the scroll case to a foreign agent, they receive the reward offered by the agent and nothing more." What does this mean for filling out chronicles? Do I cross out the gold earned during the 5th quest? If so, Yue Xin doesn't offer anything on the chronicle sheet, so how is this resolved?
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Question on the chronicle - are PCs really supposed to get gold based on what level they are? I can see a level 5 playing with a bunch of level 1s and players (the 1s) not being happy that they don't all get the same amount of gold...
Yes, that's what the chronicle sheet says:
The gold, XP, and Prestige Points you earn on this Chronicle sheet are based on your level and how many of the quests you complete.
Between that and the table, I think they've made it pretty clear that's how they want it done. Just base it on the individual PC's level. When you think about it, you could have multiple parties of people at different levels for each of these quests. I think this is a way to make that kind of variation work.
Follow up question - in Prophecy it says "If the PCs gave away the scroll case to a foreign agent, they receive the reward offered by the agent and nothing more." What does this mean for filling out chronicles? Do I cross out the gold earned during the 5th quest? If so, Yue Xin doesn't offer anything on the chronicle sheet, so how is this resolved?
This could have been a little clearer but I believe the clearest declaration of intent is in the paragraph above:
A local representative of the Sun Shogun provides a reward of 3,000 gp and access to a store of magical talismans in gratitude; if the PCs do not return the scroll case to Mai Chun, cross off the Sun Shogun Talismans reward from the PCs’ Chronicle sheets.
I don't think the gold awarded changes--there's no really reasonable way for different GMs to adjudicate missing gold across sessions run by multiple other GMs--but I do think the PCs would lose access to the Sun Shogun Talismans boon. So if they give the scrolls away to someone else, cross the boon off.
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I ran this today for a group of 3. We had two level 5s, one level 3, and a level 4 pregen, so we went high tier. Based on the group, I did not use the 4 player adjustment, as they didn't need it. (I would have added it back in or retconned it if they struggled.) Overall, they breezed through this, without much trouble. The one quest they did have problems with was Teahouse (see below). When they got to the final fight in Prophecy, the group was actually insulted at the offers they were given, considering them way too low for the significance of the artifact they were carrying. One of them said "I've got your scroll case right here" while flicking off the NPCs, which started combat. Overall, I believe they had fun, even if they did stomp pretty much everything, and blow the skill check DCs out of the water (they were skill heavy, 'cause rogues [and Lem]).
Teahouse: The number of points is definitely too high, or I guess you could argue the bullies are two weak. Part of the reason I didn't apply the 4 player adjustment is so they could have that extra combatant to fight. At first they were intimidated by the number of opponents, but after the first round, the ranger stopped using his favored enemy bonus, and the rogues stopped using sneak attack simply because the enemies were going down in one round (without using power attack or anything, but they were focusing fire). I played up the crowd being disappointed that there wasn't more of a fight in order to get the players to "take it easy" on the bullies, and had Jiang Fei tell them to put on more of a show, including using acrobatics for flair. They actually debated healing their opponents to last long enough as they realized how weak they were. One of the players wanted to use his own special trick (which would have hurt the group's point total), so I told him he could, but that he wouldn't be showing off Jade Ogre style, which is what they were specifically told to do. After talking to the others, he decided against it. They only got 15 points (they need 16 at high tier), but because there were 4 of them and I didn't apply any prior adjustment, I gave it to them, as they really held back to even get that many. I think this goal should be revisited, as it penalizes (physically) strong parties.
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Ran today at low tier. Full party of 6, five of them level 1 PCs.
I found the skill check targets and the teahouse points target just right. The party caught Jianghong, but only just. They succeeded with the very last skill check attempt. The teahouse fight was entertaining: the party gained their 10th point with the attack that dropped the last scorpion monk. Technically, it was their 11th point because the party psychic used a dark half mind thrust on one round and lost a point. Two of the party were dropped by the scorpion monks. I made the crowd responses obvious enough that the party got a good idea of what to go for, and they were quite enthusiastic in trying out the jade ogre moves.
Took about 4.5 hours to run the whole thing. I'll probably run this again sometime and should be a bit quicker with greater familiarity.
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I ran this for the fourth time on Thursday, making it tied for the scenario I've run the most with The Wounded Wisp.
A few more comments:
Well done on the characterization of the NPCs! So far, players haaaate Yue Xin, like Jiang Fei, and vary on Jianghong by group. I love having NPCs with personality.
This might be due to different authors writing the different quests, but the NPC names are a little too similar to each other. We have Jiang Fei, Jianghong, Chiang Zhen, and Zheng.
I tried running Inkstains without the map this time, and I think I'll run it that way in future. With the map out, players tend to look at it tactically. "Okay, I can shoot him from here." Without the map, I can run it more narratively. This also seems to make this section run a little faster, which helps make up for Teahouse, which runs long. I think I've run about 50-50 on groups making enough skill checks to get the Influence in this Quest, so the balance seems about right.
The points needed for Teahouse seem correct at low tier. I think all three low-tier groups just barely managed it before the last Scorpion School student went down, even with four players. I still think 16 is too many for high tier, certainly if you have only four players.
And no one ever wants to tell Yue Xin what's going on.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Kansas City
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Hi everyone - I will be running multiple slots of HoHW at an upcoming local con. In the past when I've seen quests run (mostly at GenCon, which may not be the best comparison) people can step in/out between individual quests. Is that still the intent here? That seems to be supported in the 'Receiving Credit' section of the scenario, but I still have doubts because of the quest structure (a clear first and last quest) and the ability for tier changes if players are added/removed between quests since HoHW allows for L1-5 characters instead of strictly L1 characters in previous quest series.
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Hi everyone - I will be running multiple slots of HoHW at an upcoming local con. In the past when I've seen quests run (mostly at GenCon, which may not be the best comparison) people can step in/out between individual quests. Is that still the intent here? That seems to be supported in the 'Receiving Credit' section of the scenario, but I still have doubts because of the quest structure (a clear first and last quest) and the ability for tier changes if players are added/removed between quests since HoHW allows for L1-5 characters instead of strictly L1 characters in previous quest series.
It's not ideal, but the scenario/quest arc completely supports it. Remember to hand out chronicle sheets to everyone leaving the table and mark down what quests they've completed and who they've gotten influence with. Because the rewards are based entirely on their level, not the subtier the table is being played at, there's no long-term impact if they come back later to finish up playing with a different group. If they wander off and play something else and level up the character that's halfway through the quest arc, they just can't complete the quest arc with that character. It's actually a pretty robust system--I wouldn't expect there are too many ways to break it. Don't worry about it too much, just make sure you hand out the chronicle sheets!
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One thing I'm kind of surprised no one has brought up yet is Teahouse's map. There is no D1 or D2 for the PCs or Scorpion School to sit at. Did you guys just randomly choose a table for them to sit at?
The flipmat has what looks like a reception area at one end. I put the Scorpion School at the other end.
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One thing I'm kind of surprised no one has brought up yet is Teahouse's map. There is no D1 or D2 for the PCs or Scorpion School to sit at. Did you guys just randomly choose a table for them to sit at?The flipmat has what looks like a reception area at one end. I put the Scorpion School at the other end.
Ended up doing the same thing.
I have a question about rewards for the 5th mini-quest "Prophesy" in 8-16 House of Harmonious Wisdom before I GM it.
"If the PCs return to Ashima with the bejeweled scroll case, Mai Chun is ecstatic. The entire town celebrates the PCs’ triumph in the temple square. If the PCs also persuaded Song Rui to return to Ashima with them, Mai Chun and the old princess get on famously, and the phantom flits awkwardly about the riotous village party to celebrate the PCs’ success. Mai Chun pledges to publish an entire book of interviews based on their conversations, and she delights in trading poetic couplets with the well-educated phantom. A local representative of the Sun Shogun provides a reward of 3,000 gp AND access to a store of magical talismans in gratitude;
if the PCs do not return the scroll case to Mai Chun, cross off the Sun Shogun Talismans reward from the PCs’ Chronicle sheets.If the PCs gave away the scroll case to a foreign agent, they receive the reward offered by the agent and nothing more."
Yet there is not actually anything on the Chronicle sheet to notate that, in fact the text seems contradictory because the Chronicle sheet says:
The gold, XP, and Prestige Points you earn on this Chronicle sheet are based on YOUR LEVEL and HOW MANY OF THE QUESTS YOU COMPLETE. [...] Calculate your rewards for this chronicle sheet based on the table below."
...but with no mention of the specifically variable monetary rewards in mini-quest 5 "Prophesy."
To me, I would take this literally, as in, these are the rewards based on who you give the scroll case to:
-> (Pigments & Headband listed below crossed OFF purchase options)
Jianghong -> "Marvelous Pigments" purchase option on Chronicle sheets
-> (No additional funds besides what's listed in table - & Headband listed below crossed OFF purchase options)
Jiang Fei -> "Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2" purchase option on Chronicle sheets
-> (No additional funds besides what's listed in table - & Pigments listed above crossed OFF purchase options)
Yue Xin -> a writ of exchange for the "Star of Changdo," a diamond worth 5,000 gp. The diamond can be claimed in Po Li with the signed writ. (Also NOT mentioned on chronicle sheet!)
-> (No additional funds besides what's listed in table - or maybe the 5000g value of the gem? not sure. & Pigments listed above crossed OFF purchase options)
I can find no other discussion of this anywhere online?