If your movespeed is 30ft, and you're wanting to go around a corner, how far can you travel and make an overrun in 1 round?
If your movespeed is 30ft, and you're wanting to go around a corner, how far can you travel and make an overrun in 1 round?
Where is your starting location in relation to the corner? Where's the enemy in relation to said corner?
Need more information before we can give you an accurate answer.
Of course, even with that information, Overrun is broken per RAW.
When going around a 90 degree corner you can't use the diagonal, so in this situation to go from A to B costs 30' of movement.
####A
####
B
To overrun someone you need to move into their square, so in this situation someone at A could overrun someone at B with 30' of movement. If A or B were one square further back they couldn't.
Is this what you're asking?
When going around a 90 degree corner you can't use the diagonal, so in this situation to go from A to B costs 30' of movement.
####A
####
BTo overrun someone you need to move into their square, so in this situation someone at A could overrun someone at B with 30' of movement. If A or B were one square further back they couldn't.
Is this what you're asking?
And when you move into their square to Overrun, as a Standard Action, your movement immediately ends, and you're pushed back to the last legal space you occupied (which is the space in front of B).
so it sounds like traveling 60ft isn't possible in a round you overrun
Maybe you could work something out with the Wheeling Charge Feat?
The movement isn't the problem.
The problem is Overrun mechanics failing to interact with movement properly.
Overrun requires a Standard Action, flat out. This means you can't do so with a charge, which only grants you one attack, and is its own separate Full Round Action.
Based on how Standard Actions involving Attack Rolls interact with movement (that is, once you make an Attack, your movement immediately ends), Overrun can't even be used for its intended purpose (to move through a square), because spending that Standard Action to perform an Attack Roll with your CMB, which must be done while in the square of an enemy, causes your Movement to immediately end, which means even if you are successful, you're still pushed back because you don't have a follow-up Move Action.
It is as I've said; Overrun is broken, and needs to be rewritten.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
so it sounds like traveling 60ft isn't possible in a round you overrun
Not normally. However on a charge 60 ft should be possible with Overrun. Your table variance should be on whether or not the attack at the end of the charge must be the Overrun or if it's in addition to the melee.
Overrun requires a Standard Action, flat out. This means you can't do so with a charge,Dude, yeah you can.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
You sure about that?
That Standard Action is taken during your move, or as part of the charge.
Both cases require a Standard Action. Compared to Bull Rush's wording, which says:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
So, as written, Bull Rush says you can do so as a Standard Action, or in place of the Charge Attack when you Charge.
Overrun requires a Standard Action, flat out. This means you can't do so with a charge,Dude, yeah you can.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.You sure about that?
That Standard Action is taken during your move, or as part of the charge.
Both cases require a Standard Action. Compared to Bull Rush's wording, which says:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.So, as written, Bull Rush says you can do so as a Standard Action, or in place of the Charge Attack when you Charge.Sure as can be.
You see where the rules say you can Overrun as part of a charge.
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.What would make you more sure?
You said yourself: you can overrun as part of a Charge
That Standard Action is taken during your move, or as part of the charge.I don't even understand the confusion.
It's not confusion, you're just not seeing the point I'm making. Let's take the two sentences and break them down one by one. Starting with Bull Rush.
You can make a bull rush...
Now, the rules say that I can make a Bull Rush, right? How can I make that Bull Rush?
...as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
The rules say that it can be done one of two ways, as defined by the word "or". The first way is as a Standard Action, no supplementary activities required. The second is as part of a Charge action, replacing the melee attack you'd normally get.
In this case, it's quite clear when I can and cannot perform a Bull Rush, and what I have to do in order to perform a Bull Rush. Overrun doesn't have that clean language. Speaking of which, let's compare that right now.
...you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Okay, so the rules say that I can attempt to Overrun the target. How do I make that Overrun?
As a standard action...
Alright, so the only way I can make that check is a Standard Action. But are there any requirements I need to fulfill in order for me to take such a Standard Action, like draw out material components for a Spell?
...taken during your move or as part of a charge...
The line here denotes that the Standard Action to Overrun must be taken in one of two ways, once again defined by the word "or." The first is during my move (presumably, a Move Action). The second is as part of the Charge action.
Now, with those sentences analyzed, let's compare what each allows us to do:
Bull Rush can be done as its own Standard Action, or as part of the Charge Action, replacing the attack associated with that action.
Overrun can be done as a Standard Action, which has to be taken either during your move/movement, or as part of a charge. It doesn't matter which method you use, you must take a Standard Action to perform that maneuver, even if you've already used other actions (such as a Move Action, which gets cancelled, or a Full Round Action, which a Charge requires) prior to using that action.
In short, nothing in the Overrun entry states that the Standard Action required to perform the maneuver is subsumed (in the case of a charge) or allows the continuation of other activities (in the case of Movement). If the former was the case, it'd share wording identical to the Bull Rush entry, which actually does allow them to combine. (But it doesn't.) If the latter was the case, it'd specifically say so. (But again, it doesn't.) There's also the matter of the Normal effect regarding the Spring Attack feat, which says:
You cannot move before and after an attack.
And making an Overrun maneuver uses an Attack Roll. And Attack Rolls are synonymous with Attacks. Therefore, you can't continue your movement once you make an Overrun attempt, because you're considered attacking that enemy (and as such, the movement from your Move Action ends, and you're put in the last legal space you occupied, because standing in that creature's square is an illegal space).
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Yeah, grammatically that checks out. If they just moved the comma, it might make more sense and actually work like bullrush. So change this:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.to this:
As a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.Also, how do you take a standard action 'during your move'? Is this normally kosher, or is it a special exception for overrun?
Special I believe.
Also, bull rush and Overrun are so similar I can't imagine they are intended to work different on a charge.
Yeah, grammatically that checks out. If they just moved the comma, it might make more sense and actually work like bullrush. So change this:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.to this:
As a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.Also, how do you take a standard action 'during your move'? Is this normally kosher, or is it a special exception for overrun?
The comma placement helps, but there's the factor that you would get an attack in addition to the Overrun attempt based on the current wording when you used the Charge option, which is why you'd have to basically copypaste the Bull Rush wording to get it to actually work the way it was intended to work.
As for the Movement thing, there's nothing special that says you can continue movement even after attacking, as evidenced by the Spring Attack feat stating that, under normal circumstances, you can't make an attack before or after movement. (Hell, this could mean you can make an attack during movement, but most everybody I know doesn't let that happen.) And making an Overrun maneuver against a creature is considered an attack, since you have to make an Attack Roll to perform an Overrun (and not including the extra attack you get from making a Charge).
Even with that, you can't even perform Overrun with Spring Attack, since you can't substitute Overrun in place of an attack like most other Maneuvers could.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
The long and the short of Overrun is there is significant table variance in how it works, what it does, how it can be used, how it interacts with a number of other feats, and how it's intended to work.
I played 27 PFS sessions with an overrun character, and half way through I started noting the various interpretations of the feats I had and how the GM thought they worked. Most sessions were new combinations of interpretations. So it isn't even something where there are "two main ways". With Overrun there are 20* different combinations of interpretations. *exaggeration for effect.