I have a player in my group playing a ninja (not unchained) with around 16 in DEX and CHA and 14 in CON.
He's gone 2WF, at level 3 making 3 attacks at +11 and +6 I think.
He has 10 STR and 4d6 Sneak Attack. Problem is unless he's doing SA he does barely any damage, also 2WF lower his chances to hit a lot, and unless he's flanking making more attack have no benefits whatsoever.
I'm a Wizard and even if I could cast Heroism/Improved Invisibility, I'm always more inclined to do so on our 2WF+Shield Master Slayer with 20 STR, who already does 2d6 of Sneak Attack, has Studied Target, PA and ends up doing a lot more damage.
I know that strategically I should just ignore the Ninja, because it ends up being much more efficient to buff the Slayer, who for some reason refuses to be Enlarged, but is there some way I could help this Ninja?
Both of them have around 95 HP, and we're starting to notice that monsters are doing around 20-35 HP of damage, sometimes even more.
I'm an Evoker anyway, I usually load up utility spells and buffs as a Wizard and then start replacing them with Fireballs because that's what the team lacks, damage.
How can I help both in build and spells our ninja?
We have an Oracle of Life too, but doesn't flank and mostly casts Prayer and Cure X Wounds
Haste is great (and will help both melee characters), and so it would be summoning a flanking buddy to help him with sneak attacks.
When he reaches lvl 10 he should get Invisible Blade so he'd be getting his own sneak attacks.
Also, with my ninja I lowered enemies' dexterity each time I sneak attacked, therefore lowering the AC and helping me to hit enemies. It worked good.
He should get a belt of dexterity ASAP because he needs dexterity a lot. A pair of +1 agile weapons is also a must have for him to add more damage and be less sneak attack dependent.
If he can afford it, he should get an additional +1 ghost touch weapon to deal with incorporeals.
If he doesn't have Vanishing Trick he should. I hadn't noticed that. It's a must have for a ninja.
When I played my ninja I noticed the few levels before I could get Invisible Blade were the worse ones. Enemies with precision damage immunity or who could pierce my invisibility were more common and I lost some efficience. When I got my agile weapons and Invisible blade everything got better.
You have it backwards. The slayer is already a killing machine, and against all but the most powerful opponents he should be hitting with ease. If you buff the Slayer he's hitting on a 5 instead of a 7, not that helpful. But by buffing the Ninja you are multiplying your attacks. Getting 4 hits in a round to hit is better than +2 or 3 to only 2 attacks.
It does sound like your ninja is either 1) not built terribly well (as one who advocates against 100% optimization or nothing, even I agree he should have 18 to Dex by level 8), or 2) has gotten the short end of the stick on magic item selection.
From the stats you gave the Slayer is swinging a +10 (+8 ABA, +5 Str, -2 TWF, +2 ST, -3 PA). The Ninja is swinging a +7. Objiously, this is without weapons calculated (you said he's swinging +11, so a +2 weapon + weapon focus?). Assuming all other things being equal, the Slayer is getting a +3 per attack vs the Ninja. This is about right for a Full BAB vs 3/4 BAB class. 2 of the 3 is attributable to BAB alone, and since full BAB classes always have a class feature that gives bonus to hit, at extra +1 could actually be higher. Your job as a buffer is to help the party members who need it, not to make the awesome SUPER awesome.
Also remember, the Ninja isn't a front line fighter. They're a support class. It only has has 3/4 BAB, but a ton of skill points. His strong suit is out of combat not in. I would suggest that both your Slayer and Ninja take some of the flanking teamwork feats, which would make both more effective at flanking. Also, if he can swing it, TW Feint is a great feat for the Ninja.
TLDR: Strategically, it's better to buff the Ninja, since he needs the help.
I think the Ninja might be at 20 now, but I can't recall if he started 16 or less.
His first Ninja was 17 DEX/CHA but ended up dying really fast, so we *restarted* and changed some things.
We only have 2 frontlines, which are the Slayer and the Ninja. Oracle just heals, doesn't use weapons/shields, so he's basically an empty threat to most monsters, since he doesn't do any damage, and he can't do any damage directly because of an achievement feat.
Both Ninja and Slayer have the same HP and Ninja is at around 23 AC probably, and Slayer it's 23 as well.
Usually we have enough DPR to kill everything, but I face issues while not on bosses or big fights.
We're playing Rise of the Runelords and too many times we face 1 enemy in 1 room and then 2 others in another room. Since these are small fights I can't be using Spells to help the Ninja that much, so the Slayer is usually left alone to deal with the threats and the Ninja at most gets 1 Sneak Attack if using Vanishing Trick, otherwise he can't even flank that much.
If the Slayer can't flank he's losing an average of 6d6=21 damage, while the Ninja is losing 12d6=42, but the Ninja is a lot less likely to hit than the Slayer.
I'm gonna try start buffing the Ninja during big fights, but if I do so the Slayer CAN'T flank, because he won't have anyone to flank with since the Ninja is invisible.
Believe it or not, in dire situations I have to flank with my Wizard.
ah, this ninja is exhibiting all the problems the core rogue has because he's not using vanishing trick to get around the problem.
Yep, he's a squishy low damage dealing character, that's just what rogues are when not sneak attacking.
For starters, Unchained Ninjas don't exist. Maybe in a Pathfinder Unchained II installment, but as of right now? Nope.
Secondly, Ninjas need to use all of his tricks. Flanking, Invisibility Tricks, and so on, are useful for him. Attacking Flat-Footed AC is great against high-Dexterity foes.
Since he went Ninja, have him invest in Agile weaponry. A +1 Agile Weapon costs as much as a +2 Weapon, but adding your Dexterity (+5) instead of Strength (at best, +1) is a major damage boost, and is superior to the extra +1 to hit in this case.
Feats like Outflank (Slayer should take this as well, since he has Sneak Attack) are worthwhile for the Ninja, especially if he's running around with Wakizashis. Critically hitting an enemy provoking attacks for the Slayer for free is also nice; not to mention, buffing Flank bonuses to +4 is amazing-good for the Ninja, and a welcome boost to the Slayer (who also uses Sneak attack).
Also, Telepathic Bond is great so the party can comunicate with other party members while invisible without revealing their positions. Flanking should be possible even with an invisible ally.
Also, Telepathic Bond is great so the party can comunicate with other party members while invisible without revealing their positions. Flanking should be possible even with an invisible ally.
In our table it has been ruled that if you're invisible, you're not flanking. I'm gonna try changing that quoting the rules, but I don't think it's gonna help much, we'll see.
Rules wise you flank because you threaten, but common sense wise you're flanking because your enemy needs to defend from 2 opposite sides, but if you can't see the enemy and don't know it's there, what's the point?I know it's exhibiting all the flaws of a Rogue, but well, there's not much I can do about it.
In a party of 4 having only 2 people do damage kinda sucks, specially when I can't go around blowing fireballs every single fight, so most of the heavy lift is under Slayer's responsibility.
Also, Telepathic Bond is great so the party can comunicate with other party members while invisible without revealing their positions. Flanking should be possible even with an invisible ally.In our table it has been ruled that if you're invisible, you're not flanking. I'm gonna try changing that quoting the rules, but I don't think it's gonna help much, we'll see.
Rules wise you flank because you threaten, but common sense wise you're flanking because your enemy needs to defend from 2 opposite sides, but if you can't see the enemy and don't know it's there, what's the point?I know it's exhibiting all the flaws of a Rogue, but well, there's not much I can do about it.
In a party of 4 having only 2 people do damage kinda sucks, specially when I can't go around blowing fireballs every single fight, so most of the heavy lift is under Slayer's responsibility.
Flanking only requires that you have two people on opposite sides of a creature, and you can draw a line from the center of their square to the center of the target's square for confirmation. If you can do that, you're considered flanking.
Even if you're Invisible, at best you can argue that the person who isn't invisible wouldn't get flank, and that's because he can't see the creature opposite his position. But the Invisible person can, so he would get flank.
On top of that, if the target he's attacking isn't defending himself from attacks in that direction (because he isn't aware of an attacker adjacent to him, via Invisibility), he's flat-footed (which triggers Sneak Attack, and the target has no Dexterity/Dodge bonuses), plus the Invisible person receives a +2 Circumstance bonus (which effectively stacks with all of his other bonuses), as well as flanking (which is another +2, and also triggers Sneak Attack).
Saying Invisibility does nothing is just silly, because any interpretation where Invisibility does nothing when no counter measures are taken or apparent (Glitterdust, See Invisibility, and so on) defeats the entire purpose of Invisibility's design and mechanics.
The Ninja can be good, you just need more system mastery to be good compared to other classes. And if the Ninja player doesn't have the system mastery to make himself at least comparable to the Slayer, then that's a player issue, since we've given plenty of assistance in terms of making him competent.
**EDIT** Engrish is hard...
1) houserule changing how the game works to make a class better or worse. It's nice to say this earlier if possible.
so you go invisible get the free sneak attack cause your invis, pop invis, get flank bonuses on the rest of your attacks.
The oracle should be helping in combat, too. Can the oracle grab a long spear and flank and use Aid Another? Summon a flanker? Cast some Save or Suck spells? Do some battlefield control? Even a wand SM1 can help the ninja flank, and possibly Aid Another, for 1 round. A wand of SM2 would last 3 rounds...
3/4 BAB characters gotta stick together!
Is the oracle working on that healing achievement feat? That feat seems kind of annoying; it often prevents PCs from helping out the party.
the unseen flanker had been talked in thraeds before. the main thing was since it was in the rules the devs didnt seem to get on board and say, "yes we ment it in the rules when we said you flank if you flank, and it doesnt matter if ur seen or not". (it was finaly answred here give this link to your GM)
but anyway remmber that invisible itslef lets him make sneak attacks and add +2 to hit (for being invisible)
The oracle should be helping in combat, too. Can the oracle grab a long spear and flank and use Aid Another? Summon a flanker? Cast some Save or Suck spells? Do some battlefield control? Even a wand SM1 can help the ninja flank, and possibly Aid Another, for 1 round. A wand of SM2 would last 3 rounds...
3/4 BAB characters gotta stick together!
Is the oracle working on that healing achievement feat? That feat seems kind of annoying; it often prevents PCs from helping out the party.
Regarding houserule Invisibility I'm gonna speak to DM, maybe I can change his mind, otherwise they will never flank. I've noticed this is a major stepback for the Ninja and it shouldn't be.
The ninja is even considering taking the Animal Ally feat to get someone to flank, because sometimes it's just hard to flank with the Slayer.Oracle, no. He doesn't own a weapon, doesn't use them and does't flank. I'd say 80% of his action in combat are Channel, and Cure X Wounds.
In harder combats he's starting to cast Prayer, but that's about it. It's a player without much system mastery and not willing to learn that much. He's a great roleplayer, but in the system keeping side he sucks.
Last big fight where he died, two people where under Suggestion spell and attacked us and even though my character in game said "Don't forget to use Protection from Evil", he didn't use it.
He did use Clarifying Channel, but Protection from Evil was another roll with a +2.
These are issues related to the player itself, but I'm already playing a Wizard, and even though I've spoken several times about spells he can use, I'm not willing to play 2 characters and research spells. I already have enough book keeping as a Wizard.
EDIT= first thing I've said when he wanted to play pure healer: Healing in combat is inefficient. We're at that point, he can heal 4d8+8, for 26 average, when monsters are doing around 30 or more points on 1 attack.
If the Oracle is a lost cause,I aggree you'll have to focus in the other players. He isn't casting combat buffs either, or dispelling, is he?
If you can fix the flanking issue your ninja will improve a lot.
I insist that haste, being an area spell, will benefit a lot both of your martials, specially when they are getting to do ptecision damage. As it benefits the whole group you're not favoring the ninja or the slayer, and I've found that the +1 to attack can be useful too for a 3/4 BAB class.
I played my ninja in a group with a TWF fighter and 2 bards. I did most of the damage on most fights, then there were these fights were I wasn't that useful and I even decided to use UMD instead of attacking because it was my best contribution. The Fighter, as I guess your Slayer does, was the reliable one, who didn't deal so much damage but had a very stable damage input, which my ninja didn't (because of immunity to sneak attacks). The bards were buffing on the first rounds, and if anything survived the first rounds (not common) switched to help with damage and control.
If the Oracle is a lost cause,I aggree you'll have to focus in the other players. He isn't casting combat buffs either, or dispelling, is he?
Ninja has its days. Sometimes he does good damage, most of them not, because he's having a hard time flanking. Even though he maxed Acrobatics, we're fighting a lot in tight spaces and he can't move past enemies to flank without getting an AoO.
Slayer does reliable damage and he's usually the one doing the most damage. He's also a bit coward, so sometimes he ends up fighting defensively , good knows why.Oracle is using Prayer and heals. The achievement feat he has only works when he cast spells from HIS list. So it's not like he can burn spells to Buff/Save or Suck enemies. Since the feat only works with CXWounds, he's restricted a bit in that area, because if he's buffing us a lot he's not gaining points toward his feat.
He can't use Shield Other because heals on himself don't count for the feat. Since he's not an expert on mastery he's not using Summons either because that requires book keeping.
I'm trying to convince him to use other spells, and it might work overtime.
Haste is my go to buff along with Imp Invisibility. Issue is that my party complained I wasn't doing damage with my previous God Wizard, so after he died I came back as an Evoker with Preferred Spell.
Having only 2 characters doing damage and 1 depending on flanking is a huge drawback.
I completely aggree with you.
Invisibility should help the ninja to avoid AoO, but he should have Vanishing Trick to provide his own invisibility.
If the Oracle is a lost cause,I aggree you'll have to focus in the other players. He isn't casting combat buffs either, or dispelling, is he?Ninja has its days. Sometimes he does good damage, most of them not, because he's having a hard time flanking. Even though he maxed Acrobatics, we're fighting a lot in tight spaces and he can't move past enemies to flank without getting an AoO.
Slayer does reliable damage and he's usually the one doing the most damage. He's also a bit coward, so sometimes he ends up fighting defensively , good knows why.Oracle is using Prayer and heals. The achievement feat he has only works when he cast spells from HIS list. So it's not like he can burn spells to Buff/Save or Suck enemies. Since the feat only works with CXWounds, he's restricted a bit in that area, because if he's buffing us a lot he's not gaining points toward his feat.
He can't use Shield Other because heals on himself don't count for the feat. Since he's not an expert on mastery he's not using Summons either because that requires book keeping.
I'm trying to convince him to use other spells, and it might work overtime.Haste is my go to buff along with Imp Invisibility. Issue is that my party complained I wasn't doing damage with my previous God Wizard, so after he died I came back as an Evoker with Preferred Spell.
Having only 2 characters doing damage and 1 depending on flanking is a huge drawback.
The problem with Acrobatics compared to CMD is that it will get outscaled immensely, even with optimal investment.
By the endgame, most creatures have a CMD of 50+, since they have 10 base, 20 BAB, 40 Strength (so +20), 20 Dexterity (so +5), and usually even more bonuses due to Size (average size would be Huge, so another +2), and that's with minimal investment on the creature's part.
This means you, as a character, need to get at least +40 to your Acrobatics in order to just reasonably be able to tumble around them, and you'd need +45 to your Acrobatics in order to just reasonably be able to tumble through them.
At best, you can get [20 Ranks + 13 Dexterity + 6 Skill Focus + 4 Acrobatic Feat + 5 Competence] = +48 to your check. So, it is possible? Yes.
But, this requires having a 36 Dexterity (meaning 20 Dexterity, plus all level ups, +6 belt, and +5 Tome), spending 2 feats, and wasting a magic item slot for a +5 bonus, which at the level you'd have it, would be easily overshadowed by other, more valuable magic item abilities. We already know the Ninja can't get the former, which means he's already at a disadvantage. The +6 belt and +5 tome cost a lot of money (though with proper optimization, he'd want them), and I don't think he can spare 2 feats and a magic item slot for the other relevant bonuses, which means he'll be dead in the water.
Quite frankly, being able to go Invisible (or having other similar means to be undetected, such as Stealth checks via Hide in Plain Sight) is simply much better than trying to use Acrobatics around/through an enemy, because beating a Perception check (which monsters can be bad at) is a lot easier than beating an enemy's CMD, because CMD scales exponentially (with multiple modifiers adding to it that increase without specific investment, and with specific investment, becomes impossible to beat), whereas skills don't (and plus require significant investment to be competent at them, something which several creatures can't do), and with Invisibility, receives an insane boost akin to that of a True Strike spell cast on a given attack.
And I think ninja can spend ki for some Acrobatics checks.
What does the oracle do when no one is hurt?
Seriously, he has to step up and do more, even if it negatively impacts his poorly chosen feat.
Pathfinder is a teamwork-based game, and the ninja is a teamwork-based class (even if that technically violates the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu). The best way to help the ninja is to team up and help him flank. If the oracle is afraid of getting hurt, he can use a reach weapon, and even fight defensively or take the total defense action, or ideally, use Aid Another to help the ninja.
I played a 3.5 ninja, which is really different, but it had a swift-action invisibility ability and was able to use it with archery. I also was able to use Shot on the Run-like tactics, even if it meant I could only sneak attack once every other round. Terrain really helped.
I played in a game where a player insisted on playing a non-combatant healer in a combat heavy game, and he was invited to leave. His gaming style didn't match the style of the campaign. At least your friend heals during combat.
Does the oracle have Quicken Channel? That would let him heal as a move action, and then he can use his standard action to do something useful, or even double heal, and thus get that achievement feat over and done with so he can finally contribute more.
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The Ninja needs to boost accuracy. If they didn't use pick up Weapon Focus by a talent or a feat, theh should. Also, it miht be too late to buy new weapons, but taking the Deific Obedience feat and worshipping Pharasma gives a +2 to hit with Daggers.
As a Wizard, you can take over to a degree. Dazing Fireball will make fights easier, and you're close to the point where you can just do all the work yourself with some Planar Binding.
Thanks for the heads up on the Achievement feats. I'll be giving them a hard look and discouraging people from taking the ones that encourage bad habits when I run a home game.