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Greetings, illustrious sages of the forums! I come to you for advice on building an illusionist. I've started a new campaign with some buddies, and since we're a little lacking in the subtlety and arcane departments(The other party members are running a barbarian, a fighter, and a paladin, so no stealth for us) I decided to go with a spellcaster, particularly an illusionist, to support. Of course, I know nothing about playing an illusionist. I've run spellcasters before, and I think I've read enough about the different types of figments and the like to say I know their limitations, but I'm still having trouble deciding what class to go with. I'm partial towards wizards, since they're the more classic illusionists and I have more experience woth them, but the Veiled illusionist sorcerer is quite cool, so I don't want to count it out yet. I've also heard good things about illusionist bards, and the Wayang race's Shadow puppeteer racial class appeals to me, so I'm a little torn. So, I come to you guys. Which would you suggest? Also, any advice you can provide on the spells and items to take for whatever class you suggest would be appreciated. Thanks in advice for any advice provided! Also, assume that, unless I take the shadow puppeteer, I'd be running a gnome for my race.
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The first thing I will say about illusionists is that they can be powerful in the hands of a player with the right imagination, and the second thing is that the effects illusions can leave more to the interpretation of the GM. This is to say that depending on how your GM feels about illusions, you could end up more powerful or less. Enchantments are similar in this way, and I suspect its part of the reason that many people go for spells with more defined effect such as hit point damage or specific conditions. I'm not trying to dissuade you from playing an illusionist, but giving you some information.
Based on the composition of your party (barbarian, fighter, and paladin) I think a bard would do very well. You and the paladin can both act as secondary healers, and that role is more enjoyable than being a primary healer. Since you will be the only spellcaster (I'm not counting the paladin), the bard spell list will have some spells that are from both the traditionally arcane and tradionally divine types of magic. Mostly though, you can get mileage from inspire courage in every battle you are in. You might never need to make an attack, but the bard will be more able to do than than a wizard. I think you will be able to thrive with either class though. The important thing is to focus on what you can be good at, and leave the damage dealing to your three thugs.
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in this thread i asked for advice on an illusion/enchantment sorcerer, maybe you can make use of some advice given there
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Step 1: You and your GM should go over the rules for Illusions in the Magic chapter of the Core Rulebook and the illusion advice from the "Spells of Intrigue" section in chapter 3 of Ultimate Intrigue. They are easily the two best sources for official rules and clarifications on illusions in Pathfinder.
Step 2: You and your GM should have a conversation about the expectations of illusions at your table. You should give a few examples of how you might utilize such a powerful tool in the game, and your GM should give you a better understanding of what to expect in terms of how he might rule various corner cases.
Step 3: Read the articles linked below. Though they were originally written for the D&D v3.5 game, the illusion rules remain the same, verbatim, so there is little reason to believe they won't provide plenty of insight into the inner workings of illusions.
Rules of the Game: All About Illusions, Part I
Rules of the Game: All About Illusions, Part II
Rules of the Game: All About Illusions, Part III
Rules of the Game: All About Illusions, Part IV
Step 4: Ask people on these forums for advice on how best to utilize illusions whilst adventuring. There's a thousand thousand ideas out there.
Step 5: Even with all of that, recognize that illusions are open-ended enough that issues will likely arise at some point. The best you do is make sure you and your group are as prepared as you can be, and to manage any grey areas like responsible, fun-loving adults.
Here's an example of some of the weird situations that might arise as a result of using illusions.
Three things about illusionists:
1) Talk with your GM about how illusions work, because he determines how enemies are likely to react to them, when they need to make saves, and that sort of thing. If the two of you aren't on the same wavelength, nothing else is going to matter. Read the rules carefully -- in particular, the distinction between figments and glamers. Don't try and make spells do things they can't; do be very aware of what they can do.
2) While you want your illusion DCs to be as high as possible (high casting stat, gnome, (Greater) Spell Focus (illusion), etc.), it's even more important to make your illusions so plausible that your targets don't even think to question them, but just react as if they were real. Know what's plausible in this area, what your enemies might be afraid of, and so on. Situational awareness is VERY important -- you want your enemies to react in a particular way, so you have to present something that will get them to react the way you want. Will they flee your illusions in fear, or charge them in rage, or do something else?
3) Be able to do some stuff that isn't illusions. If you conjure something real and the enemy bleeds from it, they're more likely to think the next thing is real. Some enemies can see through illusions (true seeing! or are very smart with high Spellcraft and will know when you're casting one. Illusions almost never kill the enemy directly: they baffle, delay, deceive, and mislead -- so you and your party will need some way to finally deal with foes.
As soon as you can, get shadow conjuration and shadow evocation. Those spells give you a fantastic level of versatility.
A fun trick at lower levels is to use silent image to mimic obscuring mist. Now you can see the monsters, but they can't see you--carry some form of ranged weapon and you'll be aiming at their flat-footed AC. Depending on how your GM adjudicates "interacted with", they likely won't get a save till they actually enter the mist. If you do this a couple times, your comrades will be wise to the trick which might grant a Will save bonus--and if they make their saves, the whole party benefits from concealment while suffering none of the penalties.
Study lots of stuff (i.e., get Knowledge skills). That will ensure that you won't be like me in this post. Also, knowing whether your enemies have resistances to mind-affecting effects and/or what kinds of things they like/hate helps fine-tune your illusions more appropriately.
If you want to focus on shadow illusions, it's possible to get 100% or more "real" with the right build.
Take my character, Ravendark, for example. He can cast greater shadow evocation spells that have 100% real effects thanks to his Shadowy Specialization class feature and Solid Shadows and Spell Perfection feats.
This gives your character a lot of extra versatility when it comes to having the right spell for a given job.
Yes, careful feat support is really important for illusionists, more so than some wizard builds.
Items like the phantasmal gem can be really useful too.
1. Max save dcs on your spells. Personally I like arcanist for illusionists but wizards are definitely solid. Spell focus + Greater are probably your first feats. Consider exploit wizard. Also focused spell > heighten spell always. Persistent spell is a great dc booster as well in mid levels
2. Wizard Discovery Resilient illusions FTW. Consider spell specialization + greater with your favorite illusion.
3. The trickery metamagic, still silent stylized, all can help tremendously. Consider mixing in a few actual summoning spells while your at it. Also Arcane Trickster is very well worth looking into. At high levels use the spell "Spellsword" to hide metamagic rods in gauntlets, cetus, thorn bracers, etc.
4. I would recommend choosing between shadow magic and everything else. You can obviously learn+use both but Shadow magic requires its own set of feats to be really effective. In short try to specialize
5. Only shadow evocation spells break invisibility and that only when used in the least effective manner. Ring of invisibility :)
6. Gnome feat "Effortless Trickery"
7. For school of magic I recommend creation or teleportation. There are all kinds of fun trickster conj spells and these school powers are definitely fun. More illusion slots would be nice but the school powers suck. You can buy pearls of power. School powers cannot be
8. Don't ban enchantment. Many enchantment spells complement illusion spells so well. Instead ban necromancy + evocation/abjuration. It hurts but not as badly as you would think
For 3p material check out Encyclopedia Arcane: Illusionism, Smoke and Mirrors. If your dm doesn't allow it see about getting some spells imported via spell creation rules. Story feat Eldritch reasearcher(ult campaign) actually gives you bonuses on spells you made yourself. Also some very fun items in there
The Cunning Caster or Conceal Spell feats can be incredibly useful for games that use the unwritten spell manifestations rules.
Three things about illusionists:
1) Talk with your GM about how illusions work, because he determines how enemies are likely to react to them, when they need to make saves, and that sort of thing. If the two of you aren't on the same wavelength, nothing else is going to matter. Read the rules carefully -- in particular, the distinction between figments and glamers. Don't try and make spells do things they can't; do be very aware of what they can do.
2) While you want your illusion DCs to be as high as possible (high casting stat, gnome, (Greater) Spell Focus (illusion), etc.), it's even more important to make your illusions so plausible that your targets don't even think to question them, but just react as if they were real. Know what's plausible in this area, what your enemies might be afraid of, and so on. Situational awareness is VERY important -- you want your enemies to react in a particular way, so you have to present something that will get them to react the way you want. Will they flee your illusions in fear, or charge them in rage, or do something else?
3) Be able to do some stuff that isn't illusions. If you conjure something real and the enemy bleeds from it, they're more likely to think the next thing is real. Some enemies can see through illusions (true seeing! or are very smart with high Spellcraft and will know when you're casting one. Illusions almost never kill the enemy directly: they baffle, delay, deceive, and mislead -- so you and your party will need some way to finally deal with foes.
Yeah, I was thinking about taking the true name feat once and maybe taking some summon spells, to make my other "Summons" seem more realistic. I plan on having a talk with my DM about the illusion rules, though we've hashed it out a couple times before during other campaigns with other spellcasting friends.
As soon as you can, get shadow conjuration and shadow evocation. Those spells give you a fantastic level of versatility.
A fun trick at lower levels is to use silent image to mimic obscuring mist. Now you can see the monsters, but they can't see you--carry some form of ranged weapon and you'll be aiming at their flat-footed AC. Depending on how your GM adjudicates "interacted with", they likely won't get a save till they actually enter the mist. If you do this a couple times, your comrades will be wise to the trick which might grant a Will save bonus--and if they make their saves, the whole party benefits from concealment while suffering none of the penalties.
Study lots of stuff (i.e., get Knowledge skills). That will ensure that you won't be like me in this post. Also, knowing whether your enemies have resistances to mind-affecting effects and/or what kinds of things they like/hate helps fine-tune your illusions more appropriately.
I quite like this idea with regards to the obscuring mists, so I think I may borrow it rather shamelessly. One of the only things I couldn't seem to properly figure out about silent image (And some other similar spells) was rather they were mobile after being cast. For example, could I make a wall of stone "Rise" out of the ground, or would it simply pop into existence? If it's the latter, then I could probably still work with it, but the former would be far more useful. Any other ideas like the obscuring mist would be appreciated. I have a few ideas myself, but additional suggestions would naturally be very useful.
The Cunning Caster or Conceal Spell feats can be incredibly useful for games that use the unwritten spell manifestations rules.
I could certainly see these coming in handy, but I might pass by virtue of the fact that a fair bit of the time I might pretend that I'm casting some other spell, when I'm casting an illusion instead, meaning that concealing the casting would be unnecessary. Thanks you for the suggestion though. I also wasn't aware of the phantasmal gem, though I think I'll definitely want to get my hands on one early on.
10 gp of silver alchemical reagant adds +1 DC to spells that are disbelieved, if you want an edge and have money to burn. You're paying an expected 200 gp for every spell that it makes a difference on.
The Cunning Caster or Conceal Spell feats can be incredibly useful for games that use the unwritten spell manifestations rules.I could certainly see these coming in handy, but I might pass by virtue of the fact that a fair bit of the time I might pretend that I'm casting some other spell, when I'm casting an illusion instead, meaning that concealing the casting would be unnecessary. Thanks you for the suggestion though. I also wasn't aware of the phantasmal gem, though I think I'll definitely want to get my hands on one early on.
If they have Spellcraft they'll know you're casting an Illusion if they can see what you're doing. I think Ultimate Intrigue had a feat to look like another spell to Spellcraft but it was (a) bad and (b) limited to making it look like another spell of the same school, so still Illusion.
I quite like this idea with regards to the obscuring mists, so I think I may borrow it rather shamelessly. One of the only things I couldn't seem to properly figure out about silent image (And some other similar spells) was rather they were mobile after being cast. For example, could I make a wall of stone "Rise" out of the ground, or would it simply pop into existence? If it's the latter, then I could probably still work with it, but the former would be far more useful. Any other ideas like the obscuring mist would be appreciated. I have a few ideas myself, but additional suggestions would naturally be very useful.
From the silent image spell description: "You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect." Of course check with your GM, but when I GM, I interpret that to mean you could make a swirling area of mist or have a wall of stone rise from the floor.
As far as other useful pre-existing spells to fake with illusions...
Wall of fire is great because you can shoot through it without disturbing the effect and yet it might make enemies think twice before charging you. Really, any of the wall spells are good to fake--being able to battlefield control at a low-level that way is quite nice.
As a GM I once had an illusionist fake summon a giant. You have to make it react, but it's a good way to summon really scary stuff, again to distract foes for a round or two.
If you can cast fly you can look totally metal by flying around on the back of a "dragon" :)
10 gp of silver alchemical reagant adds +1 DC to spells that are disbelieved, if you want an edge and have money to burn. You're paying an expected 200 gp for every spell that it makes a difference on.
If they have Spellcraft they'll know you're casting an Illusion if they can see what you're doing. I think Ultimate Intrigue had a feat to look like another spell to Spellcraft but it was (a) bad and (b) limited to making it look like another spell of the same school, so still Illusion.The Cunning Caster or Conceal Spell feats can be incredibly useful for games that use the unwritten spell manifestations rules.I could certainly see these coming in handy, but I might pass by virtue of the fact that a fair bit of the time I might pretend that I'm casting some other spell, when I'm casting an illusion instead, meaning that concealing the casting would be unnecessary. Thanks you for the suggestion though. I also wasn't aware of the phantasmal gem, though I think I'll definitely want to get my hands on one early on.
I wasn't aware of these reagents, though considering their relatively cheap price and the useful effect they provide, I might definitely have to acuire some of the silver. Also, while I agree that someone with spellcraft may recognize it, I would be doubtful that they would get a save every time I cast a spell to find out what I was casting. Besides, the number of enemies outside of spellcasters, whom are fairly rare, with spellcraft would be rather limited.
I quite like this idea with regards to the obscuring mists, so I think I may borrow it rather shamelessly. One of the only things I couldn't seem to properly figure out about silent image (And some other similar spells) was rather they were mobile after being cast. For example, could I make a wall of stone "Rise" out of the ground, or would it simply pop into existence? If it's the latter, then I could probably still work with it, but the former would be far more useful. Any other ideas like the obscuring mist would be appreciated. I have a few ideas myself, but additional suggestions would naturally be very useful.From the silent image spell description: "You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect." Of course check with your GM, but when I GM, I interpret that to mean you could make a swirling area of mist or have a wall of stone rise from the floor.
As far as other useful pre-existing spells to fake with illusions...
Wall of fire is great because you can shoot through it without disturbing the effect and yet it might make enemies think twice before charging you. Really, any of the wall spells are good to fake--being able to battlefield control at a low-level that way is quite nice.
As a GM I once had an illusionist fake summon a giant. You have to make it react, but it's a good way to summon really scary stuff, again to distract foes for a round or two.
If you can cast fly you can look totally metal by flying around on the back of a "dragon" :)
Ah, thank you very much for clearing that up. I had hoped that that would be the case. "Summoning" things will definitely seem more realistic if they move around a bit, I agree. With regards to the wall of fire, I had it in mind, though up until now I was worried that it would just be a motionless image rather then a relatively realistic wall of fire. Being able to ride around on a "Dragon" using fly would be quite badass, I agree. :)
Half the encounters you face are likely to include someone or something with Spellcraft, especially at the higher levels of play.
