Clarification on Metamagic Rods

[Backpack]

So I have a party of all wizards and recently this came up and I have seen a handful of posts but they all go the same way. So first I'm going to clarify how I read the metamagic rod entry, the related FAQ, and how my issue relates.

PRD on MetaMagic wrote:

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.

FAQ wrote:

Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?

The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

PRD on Metamagic Rods wrote:

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.

So my issue is with how metamagic rods apply to metamagic spells. for example you have maximized burning snowball cast from someone who can change element type to fire. That is a 1+2+3=6th level spell slot, however it is not a 6th level spell.

Now we refer to the faq, can we cast the spell? Sure. Does our DC go up? No. If we have to make a concentration check though that is where we have an issue. So concentration is based of spell level, however this faq switches us to spell slot.
I've seen many claim that this would apply to metamagic rods as well but that is, at least not currently what it says.

So let us dissect what the faq says line by line.

Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

So we have a specific question and a specific answer.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

An examle.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

And then an explanation. But here is where wording and grammar matter. If the sentence is,A "In general,(when referring to the specific items above) use the slot level that is worse," then we can. But if it is,B "In general,(when referring with any spell where a modifier is affected) use the lower," then we have opened up a can of worms.

So finally I will explain my issue. So my wizard has a lot of spell slots and not many good spells. However some of these spells I am very very good at and I would like to use a lot of them. Thus I have charm person prepared in a higher level slot without it being heightened. However the issue is if interpretation B is true then I suffer all of the negatives of casting a lv 5 charm person and no benefits. My interpretation, as it is currently written, is that this FAQ refers to the things mentioned in this FAQ and not anything else.

[Framane]

Only relevant thing I could find is this:

Spell Slots

The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. a spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.

It doesn't specify if the spell is treated at original spell level or at the level of the slot you prepare it in, but I'm pretty sure the FAQ applies only to Metamagic.

In my play groups, we wouldn't increase the concentration check to cast a charm person prepared in a 5th level spell slot and wouldn't force you to use 5th level pearl of power or magus to recall it.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

The metamagic rule is not the same as the rule for simply casing a lower level spell in a higher level spell slot.

As you receive none of the benefits of casting a higher level spell nor metamagic, I believe the DC for the concentration check would be based on the original level of the spell. I know of no other way to read it.

[bbangerter]

Backpack wrote:

And then an explanation. But here is where wording and grammar matter. If the sentence is,A "In general,(when referring to the specific items above) use the slot level that is worse," then we can. But if it is,B "In general,(when referring with any spell where a modifier is affected) use the lower," then we have opened up a can of worms.

So finally I will explain my issue. So my wizard has a lot of spell slots and not many good spells. However some of these spells I am very very good at and I would like to use a lot of them. Thus I have charm person prepared in a higher level slot without it being heightened. However the issue is if interpretation B is true then I suffer all of the negatives of casting a lv 5 charm person and no benefits. My interpretation, as it is currently written, is that this FAQ refers to the things mentioned in this FAQ and not anything else.

The FAQ only applies to spells affected by metamagic feats.

You charm person in a 5th level slot is unmodified by metamagic feats. The FAQ does not apply.

[Backpack]

So then the faq is then," In general when regarding metamagic affected spells, always use the worst interpretation." The would a Dazing acid splash in a fifth level slot still count as a third "level spell" would it be a 0 or would it be fifth or third? Also weird idea if you could reduce the cost for a 0 level spell to no cost, could you use it infinitely?

[wraithstrike]

A dazing acid splash still counts as a 0 level spell for the DC and and a 5th level spell for concentration checks. The only metamagic feat that changes the base level of the spell which is what DC's go off of is the heighten metamagic feat.

You can also use a 0 level spell indefinitely. If you mean could you reduced a metamagic'd 0 level spell then there is spell perfection, but you have to choose a specific spell every time you take the feat. You might be able to use a 1st level spell, combine that with the Magical Lineage trait and get it down to 0 that way assuming there are no rules preventing it, but if it is a first level spell it is likely a poor use of a lot of feats and a trait.

[Framane]

I personally think that a Dazing Acid Splash prepared or cast using a 5ft level slot instead of a 3rd level slot would:

• Count as a 0 level spell for DC and other thing for which it would be worse than being 3rd level.
  
• Count as a 3rd level spell for recall, concentration and other situations in which it would be worse than being level 0.
  
• Count as a 5th level spell only for the actual spell slot it used in your daily spell per day limit.

But that would be my interpretation. Expect those rules at my table.

[James Risner]

Dazing is +3?
Acid Splash is 0th level spell?

A Dazing Acid Splash would therefore require a 3rd level slot, use the DC of 0th level spell if needed, concentration Check of a 3rd level slot, a 3rd level pearl of power to restore and this wouldn't change if you put one in a 4th or 5th or etc slot.

The FAQ covers schenagens like "it's a dazing quicken magic missile in an 8th level slot so I use a pearl of power 1st level right?" And "a ring of spell storing with 1 level left right?"

It's not going to care about you running out of low level slots and using a higher as a lower.

[Stephen Ede]

Umm I don't see a clear answer to one part of the question which most interests me, so I'll restate it.

I'm casting a 3rd lev spell (Fireball).
I'm applying 2 Metamagic feats which increase the required spell slot to 6th level.
Can I use a Lesser Rod of Empower (1st - 3rd level spells) to Empower the spell, or do I need a Standard Rod of Empower (4th - 6th level spells)?

Thanks

[James Risner]

You'd clearly need the standard rod (4-6)

[Orfamay Quest]

Yes. Which is worse for you, the lesser or standard rod? The standard, right? So you need that one.

[Rerednaw]

To backpack: while the intent was read as "what's worse for the player" use of meta rods was not explicitly stated so there is still table variation.

Pearl of Power <> Metamagic rod.

Save DC and spell slot. If you use a higher level spell slot for a lower level spell, you need the Heighten Spell feat for the DC mod, it's not free...even though the PC is already being penalized by burning a higher slot

[Azothath]

Using a metamagic rod does not increase the spell slot of the spell being cast (whether it is already metamagiced or not). Thus a Silent Lesser Metamagic rod just adds the Silent Metamagic feat to a 3rd or lower spell, such as a burning snowball(changed to fire type){1(spell level) +2(burning metamagic)=3} or a Dispel Magic {3}. A dazing burning snowball(changed to fire type) is 6th level and would thus need a more expensive metamagic rod.

When recalling a spell via a pearl of power, the rods added metamagic is not duplicated by the pearl. Why? That was not the spell cast. The spell cast (in the first example) was a burning snowball(changed to fire type) {3} as that was the slot expended. The user could however recall the 3rd level spell and cast it again and apply the power of the rod to it again with another daily usage. Some GMs might disagree and that's okay, allowing the rod's power to be duplicated and recalled. Just not how I read the rules.

If the user has Silent Spell Metamagic feat and uses a Rod of Lesser metamagic Silence it is still the same (3rd level spell cast, Silent metamagic feat from rod not duplicated by a Pearl of Power). Using the actual feat makes the spell in the first example a fourth level spell and a fourth level pearl of power would be needed to recall it with the metamagic applied. Recalling it without a metamagic feat is a GM call/allowance and not the usual implementation of the rules.

If you notice metamagic feats try to limit the added power from the feat. Metamagic rods just add the feat to a cast spell for that one instance and don't impact the spell slot thus don't incur other disadvantages.

Only one metamagic rod's power can be used per casting on a specific spell.

[Diego Rossi]

wraithstrike wrote:

A dazing acid splash still counts as a 0 level spell for the DC and and a 5th level spell for concentration checks. The only metamagic feat that changes the base level of the spell which is what DC's go off of is the heighten metamagic feat.

You can also use a 0 level spell indefinitely. If you mean could you reduced a metamagic'd 0 level spell then there is spell perfection, but you have to choose a specific spell every time you take the feat. You might be able to use a 1st level spell, combine that with the Magical Lineage trait and get it down to 0 that way assuming there are no rules preventing it, but if it is a first level spell it is likely a poor use of a lot of feats and a trait.

You can use a cantrip forever. Not a 0 level spell.

A metamagicked, even if it was originally a cantrip and is brought back to 0 level isn't a cantrip anymore and it can be cast only once.

That has been clarified by some of the Devs (SKR, probably) years ago, maybe there is even a FAQ about that.

[Diego Rossi]

Framane wrote:

I personally think that a Dazing Acid Splash prepared or cast using a 5ft level slot instead of a 3rd level slot would:

• Count as a 0 level spell for DC and other thing for which it would be worse than being 3rd level.
  
• Count as a 3rd level spell for recall, concentration and other situations in which it would be worse than being level 0.
  
• Count as a 5th level spell only for the actual spell slot it used in your daily spell per day limit.

But that would be my interpretation. Expect those rules at my table.

Pearls of power recall the spell and the slot you used. They aren't a way to get extra level 3 spell slots.

So if you are a wizard with 3 level 3 spell slots and 1 level 5 spell slot you can't memorize a level 3 spell in the level 5 spell slot, use it and then use a pear of power to become a wizard with 4 level 3 spell slots and 0 level 5 spell slots.

[Diego Rossi]

Stephen Ede wrote:

Umm I don't see a clear answer to one part of the question which most interests me, so I'll restate it.

I'm casting a 3rd lev spell (Fireball).
I'm applying 2 Metamagic feats which increase the required spell slot to 6th level.
Can I use a Lesser Rod of Empower (1st - 3rd level spells) to Empower the spell, or do I need a Standard Rod of Empower (4th - 6th level spells)?

Thanks

The phrase "The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it." should be applied to metamagiked spells, not to "DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power". So it is a 6th level spell for the rod.

[wraithstrike]

wraithstrike wrote:

A dazing acid splash still counts as a 0 level spell for the DC and and a 5th level spell for concentration checks. The only metamagic feat that changes the base level of the spell which is what DC's go off of is the heighten metamagic feat.

You can also use a 0 level spell indefinitely. If you mean could you reduced a metamagic'd 0 level spell then there is spell perfection, but you have to choose a specific spell every time you take the feat. You might be able to use a 1st level spell, combine that with the Magical Lineage trait and get it down to 0 that way assuming there are no rules preventing it, but if it is a first level spell it is likely a poor use of a lot of feats and a trait.

I have no idea why I wrote "5th level" spell. Change that to 3rd unless I missed something.

[Backpack]

wraithstrike wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

A dazing acid splash still counts as a 0 level spell for the DC and and a 5th level spell for concentration checks. The only metamagic feat that changes the base level of the spell which is what DC's go off of is the heighten metamagic feat.

You can also use a 0 level spell indefinitely. If you mean could you reduced a metamagic'd 0 level spell then there is spell perfection, but you have to choose a specific spell every time you take the feat. You might be able to use a 1st level spell, combine that with the Magical Lineage trait and get it down to 0 that way assuming there are no rules preventing it, but if it is a first level spell it is likely a poor use of a lot of feats and a trait.

I have no idea why I wrote "5th level" spell. Change that to 3rd unless I missed something.

I believe the confusion is that i originally said 5, combining the rules for metamagic and putting lower level spells in a higher slot. but yes it is a "3rd"

[Backpack]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Stephen Ede wrote:

Umm I don't see a clear answer to one part of the question which most interests me, so I'll restate it.

I'm casting a 3rd lev spell (Fireball).
I'm applying 2 Metamagic feats which increase the required spell slot to 6th level.
Can I use a Lesser Rod of Empower (1st - 3rd level spells) to Empower the spell, or do I need a Standard Rod of Empower (4th - 6th level spells)?

Thanks

The phrase "The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it." should be applied to metamagiked spells, not to "DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power". So it is a 6th level spell for the rod.

I think the point of contention, and the reason for table variation, is general vs specific. If they faq'd a question that said, "Do long bows use dex for attack rolls?" and they responded, "Yes,generally bows use dexterity." Where does generally stretch to? I think that clearly for scaling it makes sense to me that it should work one way. But, if paizo made a error and didnt edit the rule, say accidentally saying a weapon does 11d6 instead of 1d6, then it doesnt matter what i "think" it should be, only what it is. I personally read this as, "For the specific points listed above, you generally use the worst." not "generally, for all metamagic, use the worst."

To go back to the bow example it is the difference of saying," generally the longbow uses dex" and "generally bows use dex"
It also matters in how order of opperations work. With a metamagic spell is it (base+2+1)+metamagic rod(+0) or is it (base)+(2+1+0)
I mostly just want this faq'd because i think it it is pretty easy to clarify on the wording and then remove the table variation. If your a caster how this works is extremey important.

[James Risner]

Doesn't the FAQ set up a list of things, then tell you a general rule formula?

Doesn't the indicate the list is examples and the formula is how to test new things not on the list?