I read just about every archetype question on here and I cannot find the answer I am looking for - so I was hoping I could get some feedback from the community - probably more like clarification.
I understand that you can have multiple Archetypes for a class, provided the abilities (seems like specific abilities) do not overlap. I.E. - if two archetypes both replace the channeling ability of a cleric, you couldn't take those two because of that ability overlaps with one another.
So the question is, what if the archetype requires a non-specific ability. Case and point, with regard to the arcanist - the two archetypes you are interested in both require a 1st level arcane exploit. Could you use your feat (for extra exploit) and the class exploit and meet the requirements for both archetypes?
Secondly, can you decide to archetype after you have a few levels in the core class?
If I am over complicating this, it's probably because I am still trying to understand the terminology and I think that is tripping me up. Thanks for your help/input!!!!
No and no.
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I'm also thinking no for the first question.
For the question about taking the archetype after some level, there is two things to consider:
1. Does the archetype replaced anything on previous levels? Like, would the character already have lost class feature because of the archetype.? If not, there is still time to take an archetype, can't find a quote on this now, but I'm pretty sure I read that in a book. For instance you take your 1st barbarian level with no archetype, when you get to level 2, you could take the Brutal Pugilist or the Invulnerable Rager archetype because they didn't replace any 1st level feature.
2. Was the book in which this archetype published a new thing? (to your playgroup or new released) Then it depends on how chill your DM is.
"Players with existing characters should talk with their GMs about whether or not these alternate class features are available in their games, and if so, whether players can retroactively modify their characters to adopt them."
For the Arcanist, it replaces the class feature. If you no longer gain an Exploit at 1st level from your class features, then you wouldn't be able to select the Extra Exploit feat, because you don't meet the pre-requisites (which is the Arcane Exploit class feature that you no longer have, at least at the time you want to take the feat). Even if you could take the feat, or don't believe you can't take that feat, this FAQ would specifically say you couldn't do it.
As for the adhoc archetype, that would be a GM FIAT call, per RAW. Relevant entry from the APG:
Players with existing characters should talk with their GM about whether on not these alternate class features are available in her game, and if so, whether they can recreate their characters to adopt them. As alternate class features are designed to be balanced when compared to those in the core class, players who revise their characters shouldn't be gaining any special advantage over other party members. As long as the GM is comfortable with retroactively adjusting character specifics, there should be no disruption to future adventures. Typically, the best time for a player to adopt alternate class features and significantly revise his character is when leveling up between adventures, though he should always check with the GM before doing so, as she may wish to work significant changes to a character into the campaign.
While the GM might want to make concessions for players who didn't have these alternate class features available to them when creating their characters, PCs should be one of the most constant elements of a campaign. Constantly changing and recreating characters can prove problematic to a campaign. While the GM should be willing to adapt and may allow players who grow bored with their characters to redefine them, alternate class abilities shouldn't feel like exploitable options allowing PCs to build and rebuild their characters in whatever ways seem most advantageous at a given moment. Allowing players to remake characters in light of newly adopted rules may be desirable on occasion, but GMs shouldn't feel like they're being unfair or breaking any rule by not allowing players to rebuild characters or by disallowing certain options. While the GM should always strive to help players run the characters they want, ultimately she knows what's best for the campaign.
In most cases, if you're starting a character, the GM would demand the knowledge of what archetype (if any) you're selecting when constructing the character, especially if it alters or changes features you gain for simply having levels in that class (such as Smite Evil for Paladins).
1) No because the "1st exploit" is the specific thing that is being removed or altered. If two archetypes replace or modify this then they overlap and cannot be used together
2) Yes I believe so, but it requires the "retraining" rules and your GM would have to allow it. Basically you would have to retrain to undo all of your class back to level one so that you can pick your archetype and then level back up to where you were at.
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Found what I was thinking in Horror Adventure p. 44
"When a character takes levels in a class, he must decide whether to take the standard class features or those presented by an archetype. Each archetype replaces specific class features from the parent class, and the choice to take an archetype does not need to be made until a character reaches the first level that includes a class feature that is altered or replaced."
And true, as I think Lady-J is referring, you could use retraining rules to pay for your new archetype.
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Also remember alter or replace includes things like adding new choices to a class feature, make a class feature only work with a certain thing, and giving new ways to use a class feature.
Plus the "this replaces or alters" text isn't required. So when it isn't present that doesn't mean it doesn't alter or replace.
Found what I was thinking in Horror Adventure p. 44
"When a character takes levels in a class, he must decide whether to take the standard class features or those presented by an archetype. Each archetype replaces specific class features from the parent class, and the choice to take an archetype does not need to be made until a character reaches the first level that includes a class feature that is altered or replaced."And true, as I think Lady-J is referring, you could use retraining rules to pay for your new archetype.
To illustrate a little better ... barbarians have Invulnerable Rager as an archetype. It doesn't change their first level features, only starting at second. A first-level barbarian without an archetype could then, at second, decide to pick it up there.
Thanks everyone - great feedback! Really! We seem to find the grey space in the rules semi-frequently, thus warranting some feedback from the community. We love the mechanics though!
And in all honesty, I wasn't sure about archetyping twice as an archaist because of the exploit/feat losses. That begins to sting quite a bit.
Cheers!
seriously, even if two archetypes are able to overlap, I'd counsel against doing it because you're losing too much in the way of your class' basic features, and taking notes of all the changes and whatnot can be a logistical/bookkeeping nightmare.