Rules: 20 point buy. all Paizo published including campaign rules. Start at first level and go to about 13th or so (so the build has to work throughout). Four other players. Please let me know if you need more information.
A buddy starts his campaign for us soon. For role playing purposes, I want Bard for all levels on one side. For practical purposes, this character has to be a front line fighter tank, be very god at it and be survivable in general.
With that in mind, I'm thinking of Paladin on the other side of Bard, but am open to suggestions. Cavalier is out, but Synthesist Summoner is a possibility since they benefit from Charisma. But their lack of BAB frightens me. The GM says this will be a tough run.
I'm also open to Bard archetype suggestions.
I'm looking for feats, traits, or even general suggestions and warnings in addition to the above.
Bard//Oradin? Bard//Paladininja?
Bard//Paladin/Swashbuckler? Dex build with Dex to damage?
The lack of BAB turns me off to Oracle. I'd have to look at Ninja, but I suspect the same drawback.
Swashbuckler sounds intriguing.
If things with less than full BAB are a little off-putting, one could always just have it so taking a level in Oracle or Summoner coincides with a level where the bard gets a bump to BAB.
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If things with less than full BAB are a little off-putting, one could always just have it so taking a level in Oracle or Summoner coincides with a level where the bard gets a bump to BAB.
This and the Wizard 20 // Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 19 type builds are why people tend to use fractional BAB/saves or 'each side totals their BAB/saves, then compare' with gestalt.
IMO full BAB isn't that much of a difference. It makes no difference to survivability and only a modest difference to being good on the front line - synthesist summoner will often be better. Or a champion medium, or a kineticist with kinetic blade - for that matter the elemental annihilator archetype of kineticist does get full BAB with their blast/kinetic blade.
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Bard/paladin is one of my favorite gestalt builds (and maybe one of the best all around). Full BAB, 6+ Int skills, all good saves plus divine grace, great Cha synergy, swift lay hands for crazy survivability, and 6 level arcane plus 4 level divine casting... what's not to like? The only real downside is they're kind of feat starved, but dawnflower dervish gives Dex to damage without the feat tax (though I think bigbeefie meant to use musetouched aasimar), or you can take and angelkin aasimar or pitborn tiefling and just grab power attack for a two-hammer build (and the tiefling racial FCB is pretty awesome for a tank).
Bard/paladin is one of my favorite gestalt builds (and maybe one of the best all around). Full BAB, 6+ Int skills, all good saves plus divine grace, great Cha synergy, swift lay hands for crazy survivability, and 6 level arcane plus 4 level divine casting... what's not to like? The only real downside is they're kind of feat starved
Perhaps I should have made explicit my assumptions about what Paladin offers. Thanks for making it so clear.
Regarding the "two-hammer" build: did you mean two-handed? or two weapon in two hands?
Thanks all for the input.
Rules: 20 point buy. all Paizo published including campaign rules. Start at first level and go to about 13th or so (so the build has to work throughout). Four other players. Please let me know if you need more information.
A buddy starts his campaign for us soon. For role playing purposes, I want Bard for all levels on one side. For practical purposes, this character has to be a front line fighter tank, be very god at it and be survivable in general.
With that in mind, I'm thinking of Paladin on the other side of Bard, but am open to suggestions. Cavalier is out, but Synthesist Summoner is a possibility since they benefit from Charisma. But their lack of BAB frightens me. The GM says this will be a tough run.
I'm also open to Bard archetype suggestions.
I'm looking for feats, traits, or even general suggestions and warnings in addition to the above.
Paladin is perfect. Gives you Full BAB, D10 Hit Dice, the good Fortitude Saves, Divine Grace, and other amazing stuff. The only downside is you can't really take advantage of their armor proficiencies because of Bard restrictions. Even so, a Bard 18/Paladin 2 in a regular game is pretty damn good when built right. The factor that it's Gestalt is just crazy-awesome. For Paladin Archetypes, could be anything, really.
I'd even consider a dip into Inspired Blade Swashbuckler (which maintains full BAB) for quick-and-easy Dex-to-Damage via Fencing Grace (and wielding a Buckler for AC), as well as other useful defensive goodies, but not truly necessary if you don't want to.
For Bards, considering you want to be a frontline tank, I'd work towards Arcane Duelist. They get Bonus Feats that can help them accomplish some very intriguing things (Combat Casting, Arcane Strike, and other Fighter-only stuff, just to name a few), as well as an Arcane Bonded Rapier, which means you can enhance the weapon at cost, and can wield it without worrying about any Somatic Components for all spells that you cast. There's the eventual ability to cast in medium and heavy armor, but since you'll be Dexterity-based, that won't really matter. You'll still get your juicy Inspire performances, but replace some of the weaker stuff with more combat-oriented benefits (like Bladethirst, which stacks and works in concert with Divine Bond and your Arcane Bond). The big downside is that you won't have all the knowledge stuff of a regular Bard, but since that's not part of your character requirements, I figure it's an acceptable tradeoff.
With that being considered, you should be Arcane Duelist Bard 20|Paladin 19/Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1. By 1st level (taking the Swashbuckler level first), you can have Dexterity to Damage, with Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Finesse, and Fencing Grace, which means from the get-go, you're a competent melee character, and you only scale up further from there. You can then sink your feats into things like Piranha Strike, Extra Lay On Hands, Lingering Performance, and so on.
For Race, go with Musetouched Aasimar. Dexterity and Charisma bonuses, with a Glitterdust SLA and more fitting skill bonuses will help you out a lot more than the standard benefits. Bonus points if you take the Scion of Humanity trait to qualify for the Human FCB of Bard, since it gives you extra spells known.
For Point Buy, consider this (pre-racials):
Strength 8
Dexterity 16
Constitution 12
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 16
You won't have any 20's unfortunately, though 2 18's with only a Strength penalty is okay (since you will be focusing on the lighter armors, being Dexterity-based and all).
You'll still have 6 Skill Points per level which you can still easily get by as being a tank-type, but you won't be the know-it-all skill junkie that everybody expects a Bard to be.
For Traits, consider the cookie cutter Reactionary and Indomitable Faith. Armor Expert won't do you much good, and there's no ability to specialize in Spellcraft via Charisma as a Trait. Initiative and Will Saves are good for any character, so I'd take them, especially if the GM says he's unbenching the big dogs.
I ask that you give me some idea as to what you expect to do with your character, being a tank-type and all. Do you just want to be up front and fighting, buffing, and dealing damage? Do you want some utility things like Dazzling Display? Do you want to be an Aid Another junkie with things like AC?
Also, what's the rest of the party going to be like? Do you know?
These are the types of things you need to find out for yourself, because you may end up making a character that doesn't really help the party out that much.
...Do you just want to be up front and fighting, buffing, and dealing damage?
Yes. Paladin allows some secondary healing as well. As for armor, I'll be proficient as Paladin. Therefore some mithral medium armor should do just fine. Still, the Dex based route with Swashbuckler dip looks great. The delay to all good things Paladin has me on the fence, though.
EDIT = Among the very cool things Arcane Duelist brings, there's medium armor casting with no casting interference at tenth level!
Paladin//Bard has all good saves AND Charisma to saves. Very cool.
Maybe Bard 13//Paladin 8/Swashbuckler 5?
For traits, Magical Lineage paladin will help with CL stuff.
Dex>Cha>Con>Str>Wis>Int
Fey Foundling is really great for paladins, obviously.
I know this would require either playing a dwarf or using the Racial Heritage feat, but have you considered the Stonelord paladin archetype? It's basically a version of the paladin that feels like a whole new class.
Also, it works great with a Dorn Dergar build.
You'd be based around STR, CHA and CON and you'd lose paladin spellcasting, but you get to be a super beefy frontliner that gets amazing DR and an earth elemental companion. Bonus points if you get a familiar with Improved Familiar and choose a Wyrd (earth-based) to bolster your earth elemental friend.
You could probably get away with a Mithral Breastplate and a base DEX of 12 (boosted up to 16 with spells?) so you can still cast bard spells in armor.
...Do you just want to be up front and fighting, buffing, and dealing damage?Yes. Paladin allows some secondary healing as well. As for armor, I'll be proficient as Paladin. Therefore some mithral medium armor should do just fine. Still, the Dex based route with Swashbuckler dip looks great. The delay to all good things Paladin has me on the fence, though.
EDIT = Among the very cool things Arcane Duelist brings, there's medium armor casting with no casting interference at tenth level!
Alrighty, that answers it. Pick up Piranha Strike at some point (i.e. 5th level), and just go to town, killing bad guys.
I know Paladins are proficient, and that Arcane Duelist does grant arcane spell failure immunity, but the problem with Armor is twofold; for starters, wearing armor incurs MDB. Being Dexterity-based means wearing heavier armors is very difficult, especially without Armor Training to supplement the reduced MDB. You'll be starting with +4 Dexterity, and that's only going to go up with either attribute points, magic items, and so on. This means the higher level you are, the less likely you will be using heavier armor. Second, the Arcane Duelist's armor stuff comes on way late. Honestly, too late for my tastes. I only suggest it because of the Bonus Feats, Bladethirst, and not requiring a free hand for Somatic Components (especially for Fencing Grace, which requires a free hand holding or doing nothing, including fulfilling Somatic Components).
Smilodan does give a solid option with Fey Foundling at 1st level to supplement your Paladin LoH goodies onto ridiculous levels. It requires delaying your Dex-to-Damage to 3rd level, but I'm sure you'll manage. Also, I forgot Paladins do have reduced CL; Magical Knack trait helps with that (giving +2 CL, though it'll still be equal to class level - 1, it's better than nothing). Since you'll have crazy-good Saves and lots of immunities in relation to Will Saves, I'd replace the Indomitable Will trait with Magical Knack. Keep in mind that Additional Traits feat is also very solid feat option.
Paladin Ifrit Bard Of Serenrae.
Paladin should cover your saves while hitting hard. Bard should focus on sonic/fire damage and effects while giving you amazing skills.
15 str +1 lvl 8
12 dex +2 race
14 con
11 int +1 lvl 12
8 wis -2 race
15 cha +1 lvl 4. +2 race
Strong and influencing, but short sighted or easily distracted.
Alternative traits:
Hypnotic: 1+DCs for fascinating, force a reroll.
Fire insight: summoned fire elementals serve you longer.
Fire in the blood: get a bit of fast healing by being inflicted by any fire damage (even if avoided with resist). Bonus 26 hp per day if you're clever with AoEs.
Check out the Ifrit feat tree, fireball yourself for a fun while picking up fast healing and swiftly laying hands. Wear armour (mithril) and reduce your arcane spell failure with feats.
Divine bond your weapon for FLAMING BRILLIANCE which you shout while smiting. Put everything else into intimidate.
Have fun!
Regarding the "two-hammer" build...
Lol, sorry- I post almost exclusively from my phone so occasionally I get some interesting autocorrects. I did indeed mean "two-handed". With bard gestalt a Dex build is generally preferred because of the limitations on armored casting but I think a Str build is viable too, you just have to think a little differently about your defense...
Thanks all for the advice.
Since one of the few drawbacks of a Bard/Paladin build is feat starvation, I think I'll go with two-handed fighter with a little Strength and power attack. Then I can go with Bard feats like lingering performance and (grand/)master performance.
As we start at first level, I'll check the thread if anyone has further insights.