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If i'm a antipaladin with aura of evil and the rank 3 mask of virtue feat, do the two interact at all?
What are the ways people can figure out i'm evil?
Will my aura give me away regardless of the feat?
If I wasn't an antipaladin, would it be harder for people to discern my alignment?
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I will tell you my GM is letting it work because it's thematically awesome.
But technically if you have an aura of evil from being a cleric or antipaladin, it wont actually hide that.
If you did not have an aura, you would detect as your alignment. If you have mask of virtue without an aura, they would only ever detect what your alignment is according to MoV (inconclusive, or one step away, or whatever based on the number of damnation feats).
Part of the problem is that a LN neutral cleric of Asmodeus detects as evil because of the aura Asmodeus gives. It has nothing to do with the clerics own actual alignment.
My group considers this to be an oversight of the rules (maybe it's even intended but we don't like it). We instead have the aura only work on shared alignments between deity and cleric. And thus, we also allowed Mask of Virtue to work on the aura.
But technically, you're out of luck.
Hmmm, https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/400bz2/mask_of_virtue_and_ detect_evil/ Just found this thread in which people say it works with auras from aligned undead, and the only difference is the strength of aura, right? Unsure where I fall on this, but there seems to possibly be opinions on both sides... unless i'm missing something? I'm probably missing a few things...
Edit: finding lots of similar things in threads about hiding antipaladins, such as Ring of Mind Shielding + Mask, Plaguebringer's + Infiltrator (Inquisitor) Archetype dip, all of which are worded similarly to mask of virtue (not spelling out that it directly changes all auras) and people all seem pretty convinced they modify your aura because the antipaladin's alignment is the source of the aura.... are they wrong though? I'm open to the possibility of either side being right. (I don't know much about detecting evil)
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The Pathfinder subreddit says a lot of things, to be honest you shouldn't trust many of the answers as they are often incorrect on a wide variety of topics (when I have dropped in from time to time).
However, reading their thread I do actually agree with them, but my answer remains the same for you.
In this case being undead only increases the power of the "aura" generated as compared to being a normal human.
Clerics and antipaladins are granted an aura that is separate from their own alignment, remember the LN cleric of Asmodeus I mentioned who has a LE aura.
Technically Mask of Virtue will not help you because you have an aura source that is independent of the creature.
I agree that it may be intended to help creatures with the aura class feature, but if so it should be re-written a bit for clarity and inclusiveness.
Seems like an odd distinction to think the cleric and antipaladin evil auras work differently to other evil auras... under detect evil the "aligned creature" is on the same table as the cleric and antipaladin with the only difference being their rate of advancement... If the feat and all the items / archetypes work for evil creatures (assuming aligned creature = evil creature) i'd assumed it would work in the same way for clerics and antipaladins. But i'm not going to assume any of the people across the subreddit threads are correct. *shrugs*
So... bearing in mind detect evil only mentions auras, how exactly is mask of virtue changing anything when someone tries to detect your alignment with detect evil? Does mask of virtue not do anything to alignment detecting spells like detect evil?
A follow up question: what spells does mask of virtue protect against, if not detect evil/good/chaos/law & sense alignment? (they all work off of sensing auras to determine alignment)
Edit: worth noting the wording on Aura Alteration (spell) "You can change the target's apparent alignment to thwart spells that detect alignment, such as detect evil." <this says you can change the target's alignment, then specifically mentions it effecting detect evil as an example of what this would change. (detect evil can only detect the creature's aura, unless there's text ive misread or that isnt on the pfsrd)
After looking into it a lot more since this morning, I'm fast approaching the conclusion mask of virtue is either a feat that does nothing or a feat that changes auras, unless there's a series of spells that detect non-aura-based alignments. (Is there? I dont really know the spell lists very well...)
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All creatures are on the table with the cleric and antipaladin.
The difference is source. Antipaladins and clerics get an aura from their deity, separate from the aura they would have personally.
A LN cleric of a NN deity will detect as Lawful, since Neutral does not detect.
If you have a succubus (has evil and chaotic subtypes) that is redeemed into a paladin it will detect as Good, Lawful, Chaotic, and Evil.
The aura granted by class is sort of a separate thing altogether.
If it was possible for an antipaladin to worship a deity more than two steps away they would have the aura of their deity and whatever their aura was.
Mask of Virtue would only hide you own personal alignment, not that of the aura caused by the connection to your deity.
This is as I said, a strict interpretation.You should talk to your GM about it.
The problem boils down to that clerics and paladins have a two auras, one granted by class features (a bond to their deity) and one from their own alignment. Mask of Virtue should hide your own, but the way it's written doesn't cover the aura from class features. It probably should though.
I really dont see how this logic works...
A succubus that is redeemed into a paladin (as bizarre as that is) would no longer be an evil aligned creature, wouldnt it be a good aligned creature? (therefore having a good aura even if it wasnt a paladin, +detecting as good by detect alignment spells)
The antipaladin / cleric just have faster progression on their evil aura than other creatures, I doubt they have two auras. I mean, you keep saying "this is the strict interpretation" but where does it say clerics and (anti)paladins have multiple alignment auras? That's a pretty big leap, unless there's text specifically stating they gain multiple auras.
Yes, a neutral cleric of an evil deity would detect as evil, because worshipping an evil deity it would have an evil aura, that's fine, as far as every detect spell knows that character would show up as evil according to detect evil, because detect evil only looks at auras to determine alignment. "A creature's alignment aura reflects the true nature of its beliefs and inner soul." <this, says that the beliefs affect the actual creature's alignment aura, which encompasses the N cleric of an evil deity. As far as I know, there are no alignment detecting methods which work by looking at anything other than auras. The detect evil ability even details that: "If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two." Which I would think means if you have two things effecting your alignment aura, detect spells use the most powerful one.
You say "Mask of Virtue would only hide you own personal alignment, not that of the aura caused by the connection to your deity." but detect alignment spells function solely by checking auras, theres nothing anywhere that I can find that states a creature can have more than one aura, just that more than one thing can affect the creature's one aura. The "aura of evil" antipaladin class ability even says "The power of an antipaladin’s aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his antipaladin level.", it doesnt say the antipaladin gains another aura, just that his evil aura becomes equal to his antipaladin level. You say "The problem boils down to that clerics and paladins have a two auras, one granted by class features (a bond to their deity) and one from their own alignment." But the actual class doesn't say this at all, it doesnt say that it gains a second alignment aura, it only specifies that its alignment aura is evil and becomes equal to his antipaladin level.
Are there quotes you can make that support detecting alignments via anything other than the creatures aura? Anything that contradicts the text for detect evil about using only the strongest modifiers to a character's aura? Anything that specifically states the cleric or (anti)paladin gains a second alignment aura instead of just modifying their existing aura? Any rules where its specifically states a character can even have more than one alignment aura?
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A succubus has the alignment sub-types of chaotic and evil. It is embedded in her body. If she is redeemed into a paladin she is lawful good.
She will detect as Evil, Chaotic, Good, and Lawful.
This has actually happened by the way, in the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path.
As for my statements about essentially having two auras, it's because of the aura class feature that they get.
A neutral neutral cleric of a Lawful Neutral deity detects as lawful. The aura class feature makes you have an aura that matches your deity, but you can also have an aura that doesn't match your own alignment.
Another example, a LN cleric of neutral neutral deity doesn't have any aura until 5th level, when it's own lawfulness is finally enough to be detected by the detect spells.
That's what's happening. You have two separate auras.
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A succubus has the alignment sub-types of chaotic and evil. It is embedded in her body. If she is redeemed into a paladin she is lawful good.
She will detect as Evil, Chaotic, Good, and Lawful.
This has actually happened by the way, in the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path.
As for my statements about essentially having two auras, it's because of the aura class feature that they get.
A neutral neutral cleric of a Lawful Neutral deity detects as lawful. The aura class feature makes you have an aura that matches your deity, but you can also have an aura that doesn't match your own alignment.
Another example, a LN cleric of neutral neutral deity doesn't have any aura until 5th level, when it's own lawfulness is finally enough to be detected by the detect spells.
That's what's happening. You have two separate auras.
Ah right, so the evil subtype is a special case that specifically mentions "Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is." so I'll grant you, in this situation thats specifically called out by the subtype, its possible to have an alignment aura that detects as everything.
But the aura class feature doesnt give a cleric or antipaladin an extra alignment aura, it just changes their aura as per the detect evil text. Using the succubus paladin as an example, it has one alignment aura that is evil, chaotic, good and lawful. Creatures only have one alignment aura, otherwise the text under the evil subtype would be different, and the wording of the detect evil spell and the aura rules would also reflect that.
If the rules for detect evil state you use the higher progression if you fall into more than one category, then it lists such categories specifically (Aligned creature, cleric or paladin of aligned deity) then surely its saying that for your one alignment aura you use the higher progression. Why would it bother stating that you use the higher progression for the aura if they're actually two separate auras with separate progressions?...
But just to be clear, why do you think a creature with that class feature would gain an additional alignment aura?
"The antipaladin gains an additional evil alignment aura equal to..."
Wording I'd expect for changing the power of an existing aura of evil:
"The power of an antipaladin’s aura of evil..."
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The aura class feature says:
Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).
As I mentioned, this in no way says anything about replacing or changing your normal "normal aura". But because of the requirement that clerics and paladins be within 1 step of their deity you never see a difference (because you can't detect neutral).
But the example I provided, a LN cleric of a NN deity illustrates the problem. The aura granted by a NN deity is NN, and thus can't be detected.But a LN character worshiping them would still be detected based on their hit dice at the normal rate other characters are.
Basically, you have your actual alignment which is detectable using the detect spells (it effectively gives you an aura).
However, clerics and paladins get an aura class feature that matches the alignment of their deity, which is separate, but usually not noticeable.
Please note, the aura class feature DOES NOT CHANGE anything. It says you have an aura corresponding to your deity. It doesn't say it removes other auras or suppresses them.
I guess there could be some question about whether or not "have" means it changes or grants, but if it was meant to change it should say changes.
Also, the rules about using higher progression if you into more than one category is as follows, going back to the LN neutral cleric of a NN deity, your aura from your deity would normally be detectable as a cleric at level 1 (but you don't get a detectable aura because they're neutral). At 5HD you detect as lawful, just like anyone else. And your aura continues to strength as you level up. As well, if you are evil alignment and worship an evil deity you would have two evil auras effectively, but the one from the deity will always be stronger, so it tells you to ignore the weaker one because it doesn't matter.
Think of it like this, if it weren't for the restriction about being only 1 step away from a deity (for clerics) you could have a character that was a chaotic good cleric worship a lawful good deity. They would detect as lawful, good, and chaotic. The aura from lawful and good would be based on the cleric progression, and the aura of chaos would be based on regular character HD.
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Also, I feel like I'm not making any headway here in explaining things to you, and I'm not interested in debating this topic as (which is what this seems to have turned into):
1) I have explained how it works technically, but
2) I also don't think that's how it should be ran and do think it should actually work to change both auras.
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Let me give it one last shot...
A LN cleric of a NN deity...what does it detect as?
The deity provides no aura of any sort. At level 5 they will detect as lawful at a faint level, just as any normal human would (if they're alignment match).
A LN cleric of LN deity...detects strongly as lawful at level 5, but detects as faint at level 1.
A LG cleric of LN deity...detects faintly as lawful at 1, strongly as lawful at 5, and faintly as good at 5.
This is why I'm saying there are effectively two auras for cleric/paladins.
Mask of Virtue says:
Benefit(s): Those who try to learn your true alignment find it hidden or receive a false result. Depending on the number of damnation feats you possess, spells or special abilities that would normally reveal your alignment return a vague or incorrect result. If this feat disguises your alignment, you can use either your true alignment or the false one when using magic items with alignment prerequisites.
One Damnation Feat: The spell or special ability returns an inconclusive result.
Two Damnation Feats: Upon gaining this power, choose an alignment within one step of your actual alignment. Your alignment is always revealed as being that false alignment.
So Mask of Virtue talks about changing your alignment. Your alignment causes you to have an aura if you are high enough level. If you are a cleric or paladin you have an aura that is granted by your deity that is independent of your alignment. See my examples above.
So, while Mask of Virtue would hide that your alignment is evil, it wont hide the aura granted by the aura class feature which is separate.
A LG cleric of LN deity...detects faintly as lawful at 1, strongly as lawful at 5, and faintly as good at 5
Yes, its aura becomes good at level 5, that doesnt mean it gains a second aura, just like the succubus example that has an aura that detects as everything.
Anyway, you don't seem to get what I am saying, and you are insisting a character has two alignment auras despite not showing me rules evidence to support or even mention the possibility of having two alignment auras, when everything I can find is worded toward a character having a single alignment aura regardless of having levels in cleric/paladin. It even details in detect evil how having two sources of alignment aura altering effects modifies the characters overall alignment, and one of the examples it gives of such an altering effect is the cleric/(anti)paladin aura feature.
But seeing as you are saying you now dont wish to discuss it, I'll conclude that I dont believe the assumptions you are making are correct because I'm seeing no solid evidence for it and only stuff pointing toward the opposite. Across the majority of forums ive found discussing concealing antipaladin/paladin auras they seem to have the same understanding of 1 creature = 1 alignment aura, and I'm inclined to agree with them having researched it further. So lets put this discussion to rest and agree to disagree.
Alternatively, i'd appreciate being linked to an official post that overrules the other threads. That would mortal Kombat fatality this discussion quite nicely and I can get back to my life :)
I've already explained to you the rules that set up why you effectively have two auras.
I've given multiple examples of how and why this happens.
I get what you're saying, you're saying you don't think there are two auras.
What I'm explaining to you is that you have an aura based on your alignment. This exist for every character.
Paladins and clerics have the aura class feature. This grants them an aura that projects their deity's alignment (essentially). But IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT INVALIDATING/REPLACING/CHANGING THE AURA FROM THEIR ACTUAL ALIGNMENT.
This means they effectively have two auras. It just so happens that usually those auras are the same.
So, going back to my example of "what happens if you could have a cleric with 2 steps or more away alignment from their deity?". They would detect the same as their deity and their own alignment.
As far as official discussion, their is none because the feat is relatively new, and hasn't come up much.
Items that change what your alignment detects as arent new, and everyone seems pretty convinced they work for antipaladin alignments on the threads ive found. Im not disagreeing that your deities alignment affects your aura, just that it doesnt make you grow a second aura. You are only stating the fact that you gain your deities alignment, which isnt something im disputing, but you arent proving to me that you gain a second aura, only attempting to repeat it as fact without actual source to back it up. The wording of everything relating to auras assumes 1 alignment aura per creature, and even has rules for if you would have multiple auras (from personal alignment and deity) and what the resulting single aura would be (see detect evil).
"So, going back to my example of "what happens if you could have a cleric with 2 steps or more away alignment from their deity?". They would detect the same as their deity and their own alignment." <Because their single alignment aura would have both, presumably like the succubus you brought up.
If there hasnt been an official discussion, bearing in mind the selection of alignment hiding items, its likely because they expect people to use common sense.
(Anywho, heading to bed now, will likely not see replies until tomorrow, gnight!)
Before Claxon jumped in, I was going to make exactly the same argument that the aura was granted by the deity is different and separate from your own aura, and that Mask of Virtue only disguises your personal aura. Obviously making the feat not particularly useful to someone who has been granted an aura. I don't see anything that stated that the aura granted to you by your deity replaces your aura, it just states that your are "granted" an aura, and clearly the aura so granted will be stronger than your personal one. Typically this isn't going to cause any issue and only becomes one when someone is trying to hide ones alignment.
If the cleric/paladin auras were replacing your aura why wouldn't they use that language. But clearly you seem to see it as a replacement aura, and so the feat works by masking your deities alignment. Holy symbol not withstanding. :)
Uh, you guys know that a(n) (Anti)Paladin's power isn't tied to a Deity, right?
An Antipaladin's Aura of Evil comes from the Antipaladin, not from any outside source. You don't even need to worship a Deity. You could be an Atheistic character and still keep all of your mojo.
"Antipaladins worship dark deities in the same fashion that paladins worship deities of goodness, but this is no more a requirement of the antipaladin than of the paladin."
Uh, you guys know that a(n) (Anti)Paladin's power isn't tied to a Deity, right?
An Antipaladin's Aura of Evil comes from the Antipaladin, not from any outside source. You don't even need to worship a Deity. You could be an Atheistic character and still keep all of your mojo.
"Antipaladins worship dark deities in the same fashion that paladins worship deities of goodness, but this is no more a requirement of the antipaladin than of the paladin."
The rules are written that way to allow for non-Golarion settings.
In Golarion, Clerics and Paladins are required to have a deity.
Before Claxon jumped in, I was going to make exactly the same argument that the aura was granted by the deity is different and separate from your own aura, and that Mask of Virtue only disguises your personal aura. Obviously making the feat not particularly useful to someone who has been granted an aura. I don't see anything that stated that the aura granted to you by your deity replaces your aura, it just states that your are "granted" an aura, and clearly the aura so granted will be stronger than your personal one. Typically this isn't going to cause any issue and only becomes one when someone is trying to hide ones alignment.
If the cleric/paladin auras were replacing your aura why wouldn't they use that language.
Exactly.
There is nothing to indicate that the aura granted does anything to affect the aura your alignment would normally give off.
Also, I started a thread to discuss (separately) the issue of cleric's and their auras.
...
In Golarion, Clerics and Paladins are required to have a deity.
As a nitpick, IIRC JJ has clarified that Paladins do not *technically* need a sponsoring deity. It is just exceptionally rare for them not to.
Clerics OTOH require a deity. "Cleric of a cause" is not a thing in Golarion.
Yeah, in regard to that separate thread you started, of course you would detect as each of those things, it doesnt mean you have two auras, and in that thread you just started yesterday nobody has actually agreed with you that the character would be able to have more than the standard one alignment aura, theyve only agreed that you'd detect as both things (but one more strongly), so im not sure what you're trying to prove by linking it here.
Thanks to those that pointed out that antipaladins dont have to have a deity, it goes perfectly with the Auras text, detect evil text and each class feature text to hopefully support what im saying.
But if what you're saying is right, and we should disregard the detect evil text about the way auras work, that means being an evil undead antipaladin would have two evil auras, because by your reading, the aura class feature counts as a separate aura. Which seems odd to me because the table clearly states: " If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two." (Notice the use of singular "an aura") It then even lists the cleric/antipaladin as sources for a way that an aura can fall into more than one strength catagory, which it wouldnt do if the cleric/antipaladin's aura was separate from other auras. Surely if what you're saying is correct, the cleric and antipaladin wouldnt even be on that list, as nothing would be able to affect their classes's special second aura?
I was just going to agree with Claxon and say that Mask of Virtue doesn't conceal your Aura of Evil, but then I remembered this spell:
The wording is very similar to Mask of Virtue:
Would Undetectable Alignment conceal the Aura of Evil? If not, what is the point of having it in the Cleric/(Anti)paladin spell list? If yes, what is the difference with Mask of Virtue?
I was just going to agree with Claxon and say that Mask of Virtue doesn't conceal your Aura of Evil, but then I remembered this spell:
** spoiler omitted **
The wording is very similar to Mask of Virtue:
** spoiler omitted **
Would Undetectable Alignment conceal the Aura of Evil? If not, what is the point of having it in the Cleric/(Anti)paladin spell list? If yes, what is the difference with Mask of Virtue?
By my understanding of claxon's argument, it would not, as the "special" secondary alignment aura would be a reflection of (and sourced from) the deities alignment, not the character's. Which (as you might guess) I, and the hiding alignment threads ive found, don't agree with.
I just dont understand why the detect evil spell would list the cleric/antipaladin as something that could affect the power of a singular aura if claxon is right and its a special secondary alignment aura :\
I am starting to think that it is a RAW vs RAI issue.
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I am starting to think that it is a RAW vs RAI issue.
Well the only reason it could be a RAW towards claxon is if you assume the aura class feature grants a creature a secondary alignment aura (which is doesnt explicitly say it does, because it doesnt feature wording such as "additional" or "gains" etc. In fact both class features even refer you to detect evil to show you how they work). But if you assume that it does grant a special secondary alignment aura to the character then it runs afoul of the way detect evil mentions the class feature interacting with other factors in determining the strength of a single alignment aura.
But i'm not going to claim i'm 100% convinced either way, hence why i'm still here. I'm hoping that someone will provide something more definitive than what ive brought up regarding the wording of everything related to alignment, the fact these classes don't require a deity, the class features directing you to detect evil and the detect evil spell's inclusion of the cleric/antipaladin class feature as something that would otherwise cause a single aura to fall into more than one strength category on the table.
I'd quite like to be convinced though, are there any abilities or items that can be quoted that directly refer to the alignment aura of a divine character as being separate to the character's alignment aura?
I've been working with the same conception as Claxon.
In a Planescape game I'm currently in, I'm playing as a lawful evil erinyes antipaladin (tyrant archetype). That gives me three different sources for detecting as evil: An evil alignment, an evil antipaladin aura and having the [evil] outsider subtype.
However, rather than looking at the source of evil, I'd grab hold of te wording "spells or special abilities that would normally reveal your alignment return a vague or incorrect result". That makes the result more a consequence of the nature of the spell or special ability used than of the target's alignment.
Regardless, I think it's sensible to let both Undetectable Alignment and Mask of Virtue work for antipaladins, RAW be damned.
I think we're all in agreement that RAI mask of virtue and just about every other alignment altering feat, spell or item work for antipaladins. But in regard to RAW im also seeing that detect evil treats the class features as something that would otherwise cause a single aura to fall into more than one strength category, and that supports (but doesnt prove) the idea that the aura isnt separate anyway. Though you could try arguing the lack of wording regarding the possibility of a creature having multiple separate alignment auras in any spell, feat or item, and the inclusion of the cleric and the antipaladin on the table beneath the "An evil aura's power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you're detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level; see the table below. If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two." text is just a big oversight/error.
Always good to get more opinions though.
I am starting to think that it is a RAW vs RAI issue.
Exactly, I already stated that at the top of the thread.
I think it's poor wording, and agree it should work. I just don't think it does the way it's worded.
I am starting to think that it is a RAW vs RAI issue.Exactly, I already stated that at the top of the thread.
I think it's poor wording, and agree it should work. I just don't think it does the way it's worded.
Eh, given that the detect evil spell calls out the cleric and paladin as something that would otherwise affect the same alignment aura as evil creature's HD, i'm going to err on the side of using that spell text to say the cleric and paladin doesnt have multiple separate alignment auras, they just have one alignment aura like everything else that just advances faster in evil power and encompasses all the various aspects of the character, same for the succubus paladin with its faster good power progression.
If you accept that every evil creature eventually (@lvl 5+) has an aura of evil, then "The power of an antipaladin’s aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his antipaladin level." makes sense without the character needing to grow a new special secondary alignment aura. (regardless of whether or not the aura's alignment reflects the deity's alignment (as per the N cleric examples) the aura is still always going to be the creature's.)
I guess it depends on whether the GM is more likely to read into the detect evil spell or if theyre more likely to assume a class feature gives an additional alignment aura. As Dalindra pointed out; it does seem odd that antipaladins with the antipaladin spell "undetectable alignment" wouldnt gain any benefit from it if it had a secondary alignment aura that was separate and always present.
So in conclusion; I think its RAW and RAI, and as far as I can tell, claxon thinks its only RAI by his assumption that the paladin class feature creates an additional secondary alignment aura so the creature has two alignment auras and by believing the detect evil spell's text...
An evil aura's power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you're detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level; see the table below. If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two.
...above the table does not apply to all the entries on the table / by thinking the table's inclusion of the antipaladin and cleric entries are an oversight that should not be viewed as the same as the other entries.
If it weren't for how often the pathfinder rules turn into a hornets nest on certain subjects, I would be a lot more confident that it is both RAW and RAI, but as any of us could be proven wrong with something that directly overturns our understanding, i'm just saying there's some RAW support for my understanding, while also trying to stay open-minded.
SillyString, the part about "if the aura falls into more than one category" means that a lawful cleric of a lawful deity falls into both the base and cleric lines on the aura detection table. But the detect spell only returns the strongest level. It's basically to resolve the conflict of "Does it detect as both strong and faint at level 5 because it's a lawful cleric of a lawful deity".
That's all that line is referring to.
"An evil aura's power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you're detecting and" - "(in the case of a cleric) class level" -its still the creature's single alignment aura, the source of which is the creature regardless of it reflecting the creatures deity, its not a special secondary alignment aura that you grow from a class ability that doesnt say you gain an extra alignment aura. As it stands, one creature has one alignment aura, that shouldnt change just because your alignment aura progresses towards evil faster than other classes:
If you accept that every evil creature eventually (@lvl 5+) has an aura of evil, then "The power of an antipaladin’s aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his antipaladin level." makes sense without the character needing to grow a new special secondary alignment aura. (regardless of whether or not the aura's alignment reflects the deity's alignment (as per the N cleric examples) the aura is still always going to be the creature's.)
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Unless you can quote something that actually supports the idea that a single creature gets a special secondary alignment aura, or quote an item or spell that specifically references that clerics or paladins have two alignment auras, im not likely to be swayed as all the rules ive found reference a creature having only one alignment aura, regardless of class or which progression it uses.
I've already demonstrated to you, such as through the example of a LN cleric of a NN deity that you effectively have two auras.
The cleric will detect as nothing until level 5, when it start to detect faintly as lawful.
If we extend this concept to the rest of the alignment spectrum, it is clear the aura class feature is a separate entity from your own alignment, and the aura that causes.
Maybe that's the confusion. Everyone has an alignment. Not everyone has an aura. Clerics and paladins are granted an aura.
Detect spells can detect normal people without an aura, once they reach high enough HD.
The only places in the CRB where auras are mentioned are within the detect spells and within the cleric and paladin class entries.
Maybe that's the confusion. Everyone has an alignment. Not everyone has an aura. Clerics and paladins are granted an aura.
clerics and paladins just get their singular alignment aura sooner, it progresses faster and it has the possibility of having the features of another alignment (your deity's).
The only places in the CRB where auras are mentioned are within the detect spells and within the cleric and paladin class entries.
The crb isnt the only source of rules. For example one of the places that expands the aura info is the occult adventures book which further defines auras, & which i keep linking excerpts of.
"Radiations of thought and belief issuing from the creature's soul suffuse the health aura with patterns that can be interpreted as its alignment aura." <Note singular alignment aura, specifically listing faith as being a factor in its singular alignment aura.
"A creature's aura thus comprises many different auras intermixed with one another to form a singular whole." <Noticing a theme with factors combining to become singular here? it even goes on to list the different auras a character can have, one of which is an Alignment Aura.
"A creature's alignment aura reflects the true nature of its beliefs and inner soul. This aura resembles a churning mist that suffuses the health aura." <Again, singular alignment aura, not alignment auras.
Even if these specific quotes arent concrete confirmation, you can see why i'm getting the distinct impression a character has only one alignment aura, regardless of the progression and alignment of the aura.
If you insist on clerics and antipaladins having special secondary alignment auras granted by their class outside of the character's alignment aura then it means the spells like undetectable alignment which Dalindra pointed out and are specifically given to the antipaladin, cleric and paladin would have no effect on 99% of the characters with those classes and all the items which exist to serve the same purpose would also not work, which makes very little sense to me, and i'm assuming makes very little sense to all the threads that believe such items and spells do in fact work by RAW. (I think we can all agree that with the paladin's comparatively limited spell list they wouldn't have given him a spell like undetectable alignment for no reason.)
"A creature's aura thus comprises many different auras intermixed with one another to form a singular whole."
This is very interesting. It seems to imply that you only have one aura and that it is made up of three (or more) parts.
One part would be imprinted on you from the contact with your deity (the Aura of X you get from your class). Not directly created by you, but a part of you nonetheless.
Another one would be created by your own alignment.
Another one would be the one reflecting your alignment subtype.
It reminds me of the Ancient Egyptian concept of the soul
"A creature's aura thus comprises many different auras intermixed with one another to form a singular whole."This is very interesting. It seems to imply that you only have one aura and that it is made up of three (or more) parts.
One part would be imprinted on you from the contact with your deity (the Aura of X you get from your class). Not directly created by you, but a part of you nonetheless.
Another one would be created by your own alignment.
Another one would be the one reflecting your alignment subtype.
It reminds me of the Ancient Egyptian concept of the soul
Yes, thats the general gist of what they seem to be going for, but it also goes on to explain that its also comprised of other things, such as emotional elements. I quoted this because it very much reinforces the idea of every creature having just one aura that is comprised of multiple components - with the each alignment just being a factor that comes together as the creature's alignment aura (hence why there are 0 ways of detecting alignment through anything other than aura, and detect evil mentioning the cleric/paladin as the same as other sources of aura power increasing things. -oh, and claiming its separate because you say the alignment "comes from your deity" doesnt fit for (anti)paladins that have no deity, which as someone in the thread has kindly pointed out has been confirmed possible by JJ).
To expand on my previous reply now i'm a bit more awake (i dont feel i did your post justice), the auras section of occult adventures breaks down into subsections and explains them:
The general gist is that you have:
One Alignment Aura that encompasses everything alignment based. "A creature's alignment aura" (singular)
One Emotion Aura. "A creature's emotion aura..." (singular)
One Health Aura. "A creature's health aura..." (singular)
Multiple Magic auras. "Magic auras..." (the only case of auras being plural; accounting for the fact characters can gain all the supernatural abilities that dont interact with, and are unrelated to, a character's existing auras)
(Also note that magic auras directly references supernatural abilities, which in the case of the antipaladin are the "Aura of Cowardice (Su)" "Aura of Despair (Su)" "Aura of Vengeance (Su)" "Aura of Sin (Su)" and "Aura of Depravity (Su)" but NOT the "Aura of Evil (Ex) feature, so it doesnt fall into the magic auras section, and therefore is instead meant to modify the creature's singular alignment aura -given it contains no wording to suggest getting a special secondary alignment aura)
{. . .}
Spoiler:(heh, I guess if we wanted a comparison for my way of thinking, if a class ability said "the character has darkvision" would you expect to grow extra eyes to use darkvision, or would you expect darkvision to be incorporated into your existing eyes? <this is just an abstraction, dont take this as me saying its actual evidence that you cant gain a secondary alignment aura, ive just woken up and i found it to be a funny analogy.) (edit: in retrospect maybe growing extra fingers because an ability says "the character has claws", then arguing "it doesnt say the claws merge with your existing fingers!" would have been more of an apt comparison. Heh, still sleepy and easily amused.)
Uh, you guys know that a(n) (Anti)Paladin's power isn't tied to a Deity, right?
An Antipaladin's Aura of Evil comes from the Antipaladin, not from any outside source. You don't even need to worship a Deity. You could be an Atheistic character and still keep all of your mojo.
"Antipaladins worship dark deities in the same fashion that paladins worship deities of goodness, but this is no more a requirement of the antipaladin than of the paladin."
The rules are written that way to allow for non-Golarion settings.
In Golarion, Clerics and Paladins are required to have a deity.
Try again.
A paladin is more likely to not worship a given deity, but to simply abide by a personal code or organizational doctrine. Paladins who worship most commonly follow the ways of Iomedae, the goddess of justice. Like fighters, the paladin also may pay service to the deities of war or organization. Torag (command) is common, as are Abadar (nobility), Irori (self-perfection), Sarenrae (redemption), and even Shelyn (love).
Not only do Paladins NOT have to worship a Deity in Golarion, they straight-up usually don't.
While Antipaladins and Paladins do not have to have a deity they still have the class feature of Aura of good/evil. In both cases it t specifies what the alignment is so your aura does not match that of your deity it is defined by the class. So a paladin of a LN deity still has an aura of good. The aura for the cleric and warpriest do state that the aura matches that of the deity.
I think that Claxon is partially right. In the case of a cleric you would detect as both alignments. It is not so much of having two auras as having an aura with both components in it. In the case of a paladin or antipaladin I think he is mistaken. The paladins/anitpaldins aura is not coming from a deity but rather from the characters own alignment. His connection to the alignment is stronger than normal but it is still his own.