Is "use X instead of Y ability" a bonus?

[Jose Hernandez 622]

Hello,

According to the FAQ two ability bonuses on a particular skill/etc don't stack but, is it considered when a feat/trait/etc change the type of attribute for a particular skill a bonus and, therefore, it does not stack? For example:

Kitsune's guile (rogue archetype) let you add your int to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks (that is, a bonus). And the trait "student of philosophy" and "clever wordplay" let you use your INT instead of your CHA for some social interactions. Is that a bonus too or they stack? (I swear, I could not find if that change of attributes is considered a bonus).

Kind regards,

[andreww]

Unless one is typed then no they do not stack. There is a FAQ on ability stacking in the CRB section I believe.

[BigNorseWolf]

They do not stack.

Changing the type of check is important for things like the circlet of persuasion, which will add 3 to your charisma checks (like a lore oracles knowledge checks, a scion of war's initiative etc)

[Nefreet]

You are adding the same ability modifier to the same roll, so no, they would not stack.

I went ahead and flagged your post for the Rules Questions Forum, where it has a better chance of getting the attention it deserves.

[RealAlchemy]

As long as we're asking about "Use X instead of Y abilities," do they make items such as a circlet of persuasion no longer work with that skill? Thinking about empiricist investigator UMD, student of philosophy, bruising intellect, pragmatic activator, etc.

[Chess Pwn]

yes, if you move from charisma to int circlet doesn't work.

[James Risner]

If you are addin Int twice they don't stack.

If you change something from cha to int, the circle no longer applies.

[Jose Hernandez 622]

andreww wrote:

Unless one is typed then no they do not stack

Thanks,

I'm pretty new to PF. If I undersood what typed is, it would be something like enhancement or luck, right?

So, Kitsune's guile type would be an un-typed type that comes from INT, therefore it wouldn't stack with any bonus that comes from INT, right?

But here is why I asked the question; I thought that the value for the skills directly obtained from the abilities are not bonuses. Did I miss something or did I misinterpreted what a bonus is? And if it is a bonus, what would not be consider a bonus? (For example, the skill's ranks bought by leveling up are they also bonuses or not?)

PS: I'm not asking to abuse the "loophole", I just want to know so it makes more sense.

[James Risner]

If something says "add int to" it's type is int.
If it says "add int as an insight bonus" it's type is insight.

If it says add "1 to X" it's untyped.
If it says add "1 as an insight bonus" its insight.

There is no such thing as enchantment or enhancement bonus. That bonus is added to the base thing.

Also if you are looking for a pinned down definition of bonus, it's pretty liberal. Things like threat range changes can be considered a bonus and not stack with a crit multiplier when the ability says it doesn't stack with other abilities.

[Nefreet]

If your ability score is above 11, then your modifier is a bonus.

If your ability score is below 10, then your modifier is a penalty.

[FLite]

James Risner wrote:

There is no such thing as enchantment or enhancement bonus. That bonus is added to the base thing.

Not actually true, you could have a +2 enhancement bonus to stealth for example.

But yes, if you had an item that gave +2 enhancement bonus to Dex, and an item that gave +2 enhancement to stealth, they would "stack" because the first bonus gets added to Dex, and then is just part of your dex bonus.

[Jose Hernandez 622]

James Risner wrote:

If something says "add int to" it's type is int.

If it says "add int as an insight bonus" it's type is insight.

If it says add "1 to X" it's untyped.
If it says add "1 as an insight bonus" its insight.

Thanks, that makes it much more clear.

[andreww]

Wraith235 wrote:

Not gonna get into this one beyond saying that this isn't bonus stacking - I see this devolving into Stawmen Arguments and off topic Rablings

its an ability check and an untyped bonus ... which does work

and as far as I know ... Untyped bonus's Stack (tho if there is wording that says otherwise Regarding Untyped bonus's Id love to see it"

James Risner wrote:

If something says "add int to" it's type is int.

If it says "add int as an insight bonus" it's type is insight.

no ... if something Says REPLACE X with int - it becomes int based ... adding an ability does nothing but Add

Stat is a type of bonus, this was clarified in the ability stacking FAQ.

SEE HERE

So, for example, the Paladins divine grace charisma bonus to all saves will not stack with the lore oracle charisma bonus to reflex. However, the lore oracles charisma bonus to AC instead of Dex would stack with the charisma to AC effect of smite as that is a deflection bonus.

[Wraith235]

andreww wrote:

Stuff

I backed up on that after I read the entries

and digging deeper I Found the Relevant part on skill checks .. and I believe it is something we veteran players take for granted and simply look at and move on from

CRB wrote:

When you make a skill check, you roll 1d20 and then add your ranks and the appropriate ability score modifier to the result of this check.

the reason it doesn't work is the Simple "Progression of math"

d20 + ability + ranks + Bonus.... Rather than the

Skill = Ranks + ability (+ d20 + Bonus)

tho this thread has defintly brought up something else for me in a home game