Hello guys!
I need your advice on how to go on with my character.
Right now he is a level 11 Zen Archer:
Race: Aasimar (Garuda)
Class: Zen Archer/ Quingong 11
Attributes (racials and items already included)
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 23
Cha: 7
Reflex: +11
Will: +15
Fortitude: +10
Armor Class: 10 base +2(bracers of armor) +2(dex) +1(dodge) +1(ring of protection) +10(monk AC bonus) +4(barkskin) = 30
Full Attack with Flurry, Deadly Aim, Point-Blank (+3 Adaptive Composite Longbow): +18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (1D8+15/19-20x3)
Equipment: Ring of Protection +1, Adaptive Composite Longbow +3, Monks Robe, Headband of Wisdom +2,
Cloak of Resistance +2, Belt of Giant Strength +2, Ioun Stone (+1 on Attack Rolls), Bracers of Armor +2
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Perfekt Strike, Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Point Blank Master,
Deadly Aim, Dodge, Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Specialisation, Angelic Blood, Angelic Wings, Clustered Shots, Reflexive Shot, Improved Crit
First off, I know some of my feats are not optimal but my group is not completely min-maxed and I can not change them anymore.
So I want to look ahead. Until the next session we can do a level up and I am not sure what to do.
The campaign will take a longer break at level 16 for at least 1 year, so consider this the end.
The DM will also award us one mythic level next session or the session after that, but not more.
Right now I am thinking of taking up 3 levels of Weapon Master and then buy Gloves of Dueling for
that +3 on attack and damage rolls. Also it will allow me some more feats.
I thought about getting Critical Focus on level 12 and then Mythic Critical Focus for auto-confirmed crits.
Do you think this would be viable or should I stick to Zen Archer only? What else should I take for my mythic level?
Thanks for your thoughts.
What are you hoping to gain from multiclassing or what do you feel is lacking in going more monk? These will help to get a good answer for you.
I feel that the low attacks hit almost nothing, so I thought that instead
of getting more attacks which do not hit I take less attacks which hit
better and deal more damage (via Weapon Training / Gloves of Dueling).
Or am I on the wrong way?
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Worship Erastil, take Deific obedience (Erastil), retrain 6 levels to Evangelist of Erastil. Take 3 more levels of Evangelist. Profit from Wisdom to damage with longbows at level 14 (within 30 feet), and Dex + Wisdom to hit within 30 feet. Then continue to pump wisdom and eventually you can make all the enemies cry with your 9 attacks around (including ki point and haste/haste boots). With capstone power you could spend the standard action to activate at the start of combat and then move (or fly) into position in order to lay down some serious damage in round two.
I read about that one, but sadly that is not possible. We play on our Game Masters own custom world
with his own pantheon. He would not allow me to do that. I do not believe that i am allowed to change
anything in reverse. But thank you for the idea!
If you want accuracy and fast then fighter is your best route being wis based for accuracy.
Also your gear seems really low, look for better headband and bow.
Look for ways to get heroism, a friendly caster, maybe buying a pearl for the friendly caster to use. It's a nice +2 to attacks.
I'd actually consider going with levels in Cleric or perhaps Inquisitor if you want to expand beyond your current abilities.
Your Wisdom will give you a decent number of low level spell slots, and you could cst something like Divine Favor (Cleric or Inquisitor -- and especially good if you took Fate's Favored via the Extra Traits feat) and/or Wrath (Inquisitor) for a healthy boost to attack and damage. Cleric would also get you a couple of second level spells, plus a domain power or two, while Inquisitor would get you some other goodies, including Judgment (providing at the least, an extra +1 to hit).
I mean, Fighter is an obvious option to increase BAB (and especially with gloves of dueling) and it would also allow you some additional feats, but Zen Archers tend to be fine for feats anyways. Fighter is kind of a "more of the same" option in my view, whereas Cleric or Inquisitor could widely expand your range of options by bringing spells into the picture (including the change to add utility spells, as well as any buffs).
Then again, your character could be an atheist for all I know, and those options might not appeal.
@Chess Pwn: I will talk to our cleric about the heroism, thank you :) The gear is indeed low, because WPL
is of no interest to our GM. We rarely get the chance to buy items and most of the time we have to work
with what we find.
@Skyler: My charakter does not believe in any god and I think my GM would not like seeing me change that
out of nothing. He values good roleplay. As with Mythic Guided Hand: It has Guided Hand as prerequesite, which has Channel Energy as prerequesite. So I would have to take a level of cleric or something.
I dont know if i would like that.
What do you think about the other mythic feats? Would the critical focus be alright?
What path should I choose? Champion?
Edit: Very interesting thoughts, Steel Refrain. But my character is indeed an atheist for roleplaying reasons.
But thank you for your thoughts anyways. :)
low gear hurts martials and makes their job harder, meaning you can't fight as appropriate enemies. Plus if money is all out of whack what makes you think you'll be able to get Gloves of Dueling?
Another option to look at is the tortured crusader paladin. They are wis based paladins. at lv 2 get +4 attack against their smited target.
Edit: Very interesting thoughts, Steel Refrain. But my character is indeed an atheist for roleplaying reasons.
But thank you for your thoughts anyways. :)
No worries! I agree that maintaining consistency in the character is much preferable to any mechnical benefits you might get from suddenly adopting a faith. Best of luck whatever you end up deciding!
I feel that the low attacks hit almost nothing, so I thought that instead
of getting more attacks which do not hit I take less attacks which hit
better and deal more damage (via Weapon Training / Gloves of Dueling).
Or am I on the wrong way?
The average CR11 encounter will have AC 25, which means your first 2 attacks will hit on a roll of 7 or more (the next 2 on a 12 or more and the last on a 17 or more). I can't see how this can be considered hitting almost nothing; you are virtually guaranteed a hit every round and it would actually be about 2-3. So you shouldn't have a need to boost attacks unless your GM is putting you against higher than normal AC creatures, but that's a failing of the GM, not a failing of the build.
needing a 12 or more is missing more often then hitting. Thus the lower 3 attacks being viewed as "hit almost nothing" especially if their AC is higher because of a higher leveled enemy. Heck a CR12 with 27 AC makes it 9/14/19 needed to hit, I don't like those odds. And getting 2 hits out of 5 isn't that great and only does 2d8 +30 ~ 40 damage a round. CR 11 has ~145 HP. That's 4 rounds for him to take out a relatively easy opponent. If this was an off-damage role then it'd be good. But if he's expected to be one of the primary damage dealers of the party he's not doing great.
Now a boss at cr+3 is 29AC and 200HP. now he needs an 11/16/20 to land his attacks, That's not great for a main damage dealer.
Are you allowed 3PP?
needing a 12 or more is missing more often then hitting. Thus the lower 3 attacks being viewed as "hit almost nothing" especially if their AC is higher because of a higher leveled enemy. Heck a CR12 with 27 AC makes it 9/14/19 needed to hit, I don't like those odds. And getting 2 hits out of 5 isn't that great and only does 2d8 +30 ~ 40 damage a round. CR 11 has ~145 HP. That's 4 rounds for him to take out a relatively easy opponent. If this was an off-damage role then it'd be good. But if he's expected to be one of the primary damage dealers of the party he's not doing great.
Now a boss at cr+3 is 29AC and 200HP. now he needs an 11/16/20 to land his attacks, That's not great for a main damage dealer.
You make it sound like you're playing Solo. What are the other players doing? Do you have a Bard? Inspire courage will add +3 at 11th level, Do you have a Cleric/Oracle/Warpriest/Inquisitor? Get them to cast bless (or prayer). What are the other martials doing? get them to flank. Haste grants you another attack (at your highest AB, no less). I'm sure there are others that would change this equation; it's the reason we adventure in parties. Do all this against the Boss, and now you need 5/10/15 and have 3 attacks requiring a 5; that's an average of about 3.8 hits/round against the Boss.
Also your analysis doesn't take into account criticals. Sure you do ~40 hp damage/round If you only hit twice and you never crit; the chances of that on a raw 5 attacks/round are quite small. Even if you only count the first 2 attacks (as the most likely to succeed their crit threat roll), you're still looking at 6 chances to crit in the first 3 rounds (9 if you have haste). That's a reasonable chance
and your base dice is wrong. 11th level Monk with Monks robe does damage as a 16th level Monk, which is 2d8 not 1d8. So average damage per round against average CR11 encounter if you only hit twice and never crit is 4d8+30 or about ~50hp, which will take out 145hp in 3 rounds with no support.
If your allies can't (or won't) cast spells, get them as potions or some other wondrous item. There are enough low-level spells that boost various stats that you can take when needed. a potion of Divine favor will add +1 to hit and +1 to damage; buying it at a higher level can give you +3 to hit and +3 to damage; use when facing the Boss.blessand prayer I've mentioned, there is also Aid (which also gives temporary hp, too). Chess pwn mentioned heroism, which is another good boost you can get as a potion if you have no spellcaster.
and we haven't even begun to look at damage boosters. They're out there; find them, get them and use them.
If you are missing everything stop using deadly aim. Just because you have a feat does not mean you always have to use it. Normally the extra damage is well worth the penalty to hit, but if you are fighting against things with a high AC it may be a better tactics to not use it.
Take mythic improved critical for your mythic feat. Combine this with perfect shot (rolling 3d20 and taking the best roll) with Ki Arrows to get 8d8 plus 4x your normal damage bonus. Now instead of firing a bunch of arrow that do ok damage you get one shot that does a lot of damage.
Most parties I've seen don't have bards, not all of them have buffing clerics, if you're in a 4 person party their might not be any full bab and the melee's are a 3/4 off-damage class that usually needs to buff themselves.
If you're spending ki every round then an arrow does 2d8, if you're not then it's only 1d8.
Spending a round to drink a potion needs to be a good potion or you weren't able to full attack anyways, since you're ranged, you should be able to full attack
A lv11 fighter can have 11bab -2rapid, -3deadly, +2 WFs, +2 WT, +3 bow, +2 gloves +6dex +1 PBS, +1 ioun = +23/+23/+18/+13
damage is +3str, +3bow, +2 WS, +2WT, +2 gloves, +6deadly, +1 PBS = +19
So for damage
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (1D8+15/19-20x3)
or
+23(hits for 2)/+23/+18/+13 (1D8+19/19-20x3)
My secondary attacks are as accurate as his primary. My attacks can go higher in class if I go mutation warrior for +4dex making my attack
+25(hits for 2)/+25/+20/+15 (1D8+19/19-20x3)
Now I hit on a 2 for my first 2 shots, then on a 5, then an 10. I'm likely to get 4 arrows to hit, each doing more damage per arrow. that's 4d8+76 ~ 94
Now adding prayer, bless, haste and a bard it's
+24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+14 (1D8+19/19-20x3)
to
+31(hits for 2)/+31/+31/+26/+21 (1D8+23/19-20x3)
The monk hits on 5/10/15, fighter on 2/3/8
Monk lands average of 3.8 arrows according to you
fighter lands 5+ arrows.
See to me the monk places in with solid off-damage role numbers. But a primary damage dealer for me places numbers where your first attack should be hitting on a 2 against a lot of enemies. This hold true with pregens, Crow a primary damage dealing class, hits CR7 AC on a 2, just using rage and no other buffs. Add in the bard, haste and prayer for +4 and he's hitting CR+3 on a 2.
It's true that a fighter finds it so much easier to hit, (in fact I doubt the fighter would invest in the 2nd WF or the ioun stone as its simply not needed) but that is true if you compare the fighter with any other Full-BAB class. Paladin would be getting about +18/+13/+8, so would ranger, and cavalier, etc. Each class adds something different; Monk gets extra attacks and ki powers, ranger has favoured enemy, paladin gets smite, cavalier gets challenge, fighter gets bonuses to hit. To single out the Monk as being unable to hit is to suggest that Paladin, Ranger, cavalier, etc. also have that problem, yet no one ever complains about that. The fact is, the OP complained that he hardly ever hits, which isn't true, not that he hits less often than the fighter. Any class suffers in comparison to the fighter; to compare yourself to a fighter and say "I don't hit as often or do as much damage as a fighter" is nonsense; it's what he does. You would expect him to be better at it.
You're right about the damage being 1d8 not 2d8; serves me right for trying to present a coherent argument at 1a.m. - I completely forgot we were looking at zen archer not vanilla monk.
And your party may not have a Bard, or a Divine, or an Arcane, but most classes can provide something to support you; the potion drinking is (as I suggested) only for when you don't have a supporter in the party. If you're facing the Boss, taking an action to drink a heightened potion of Divine Favor would be a smart move if you don't have a divine that is able or willing to provide; its a stupid move if you do.
Looking at the character presented, the Monk's Robe doesn't do very much for a zen archer except add some AC (+2AC). You could get the same effect by getting an amulet of Natural Armor +2 and save yourself 5000gp.
Sorry to keep you waiting.
So, my group is fairly big, but the participation varies. We have the following classes:
- Half Elf Summoner (about the only one who is really optimized)
- Half Giant Monk (specialized on grappling)
- Vishkanya Ninja/Red Mantis Assassin
- Human Cleric (very melee oriented, but rarely present)
- Catfolk Fighter
- Half Elf Wizard (blaster)
- Elf Druid (melee shapeshifter)
Aside from the occasional Haste there is not much buffing going on.
I think I did not use the right words before. My GM tends to use monsters with very high AC.
The last fight we had was against a vampire rogue with an AC of 32. The only ones with acceptable
chances to hit him were me and the Eidolon, but the Eidolon was bound by some other mobs and several
other characters were disabled (Net, Hold Person). So that was when I thought to myself that I would
like to hit better, because against the enemies where I really need it, the lower attacks dont really matter.
So my first thought was with the weapon master and mythic crit focus, so that I dont have to confirm crits anymore.
@TimD: No we are not allowed to use 3pp
@Gavmania: The monks robe was an item we found, so I kept it. Also it boosts my unarmed damage to 2d8.
Sometimes I use my Ki to deal 2d8 rather than buying another attack, so i thought it would be alright.
@everyone: Thank you for all the tips so far!
That was the only exception our GM allowed, I think because the character is quite weak
and the player is not present too often, because he lives about 150km away.
Other than that we are not allowed to use 3pp :(
Seems you're party is seriously lacking in support characters, which is likely the root of your problem. Also 32 AC. You're doing your job and it sounds like you're doing it well. Nobody else is performing critical party roles. You should be asking your party casters to lead with crowd control, and buffs before getting involved in the killing. It also sounds like most of the other party members aren't performing that well in these intense situations so convincing them to shift to take on more support roles should get more performance out of the group as a whole.
OK, so the main reason you're struggling is because you are up against high AC opponents and you're party are not very good at providing support. We have:
Summoner; good for buffs - a reasonable support character
Monk - no support there
Assassin - no support
Cleric - Melee oriented and rarely present; little or no support there
Catfolk Fighter - no support there
Wizard Blaster - little or no support
Druid Shapeshifter - little or no support.
In other words, you have one character who will consistently provide support; the rest not so much.
Your only recourse is to self-buff; one round to get +3 to hit and +3 to damage from a heightened Divine Favor (+ if you have the Fate's Favored trait) would make a huge difference. If you can get any of the other characters to provide something that will help.
it looks to me as though your party is unbalanced; once a fight begins the wizard takes out the Mooks with Fireball; the Monk, Cleric, Catfolk and Druid enter the fray, you start shooting arrows. The Assasin sneaks off to find easy targets. Only the summoner is left to try and buff everyone, and no one is providing battlefield control.
Personally, I'd be looking to make a buffer or battlefield controller (one that complements the Summoner); half your party wouldn't have been caught in nets/Hold person if you had decent battlefield control, and all those melees are going to have problems hitting except for the fighter. You have more than enough combat orientated characters, but they can't do their thing without support and assistance. Losing the archery capabilities would be bad, but not as bad as trying to get through an encounter without more control and/or buffs. That might not be to your taste; the best solution would be to persuade one of the other Melees (Cleric, I'm looking at you) to concentrate more on Buffs than on Melee to restore balance.
I still say your to-hit stats aren't bad; maybe they aren't good enough for what your GM likes to provide, but that's a different story.
Alternatively, you can concentrate on mopping up the Mooks and leave the BBEG to the Fighter and Eidolon; between you and the wizard (assuming he is fairly well optimised) and maybe one or two others you should be able to take most of them out fairly quickly, leaving the rest of the party to take on the BBEG.
@Hark: Yes, the performance in battle is really lacking. For example, in the last fight we were pretty
low on health, because the other enemies threw around some aoe spells. And instead of channeling our
cleric attacked one of the enemies. Things like that happen too often, but its like talking to the wall...
@Lady-J: The race itself is pretty awesome, I know. But the character he has is not too good outside of grappling.
I think he has Wis 12-14 or something and a ridiculously low AC, so he gets hit very often.
@Hark: Yes, the performance in battle is really lacking. For example, in the last fight we were pretty
low on health, because the other enemies threw around some aoe spells. And instead of channeling our
cleric attacked one of the enemies. Things like that happen too often, but its like talking to the wall...
Honestly, there are much better things a Cleric can do than healing. Though unless they are built for it and filling out that role attacking isn't usually one of them.
You might just want to see how things shake out once you get that Mythic tier. Mythic changes up things a lot, and your damage dealing potential should skyrocket if done right.
It's true that a fighter finds it so much easier to hit, (in fact I doubt the fighter would invest in the 2nd WF or the ioun stone as its simply not needed) but that is true if you compare the fighter with any other Full-BAB class. Paladin would be getting about +18/+13/+8, so would ranger, and cavalier, etc. Each class adds something different; Monk gets extra attacks and ki powers, ranger has favoured enemy, paladin gets smite, cavalier gets challenge, fighter gets bonuses to hit. To single out the Monk as being unable to hit is to suggest that Paladin, Ranger, cavalier, etc. also have that problem, yet no one ever complains about that. The fact is, the OP complained that he hardly ever hits, which isn't true, not that he hits less often than the fighter. Any class suffers in comparison to the fighter; to compare yourself to a fighter and say "I don't hit as often or do as much damage as a fighter" is nonsense; it's what he does. You would expect him to be better at it.
Paladin's can divine bond their bow for an extra +3 enhancement. That's 2 more accuracy and damage right there available. Paladin's have spells so can add +3 from divine favor himself. AND that's assuming smite isn't available, which it often is since the majority of things good guys fight are evil, which should be adding at least another 4 or 5. So having divine bond up beforehand gives you accuracy of 25/20/15. Wow, look at that, my martial class is matching the fighter. No wonder people don't complain about a paladin's accuracy.
Ranger has swift action instant enemy if his enemy isn't already a FE. That's +6 to attack and damage. that puts him at 24/19/14, look at that, 1 less than the fighter on a martial class, no wonder people don't complain about the ranger's accuracy.
Cavaliers are actually known for accuracy issues because of little to no in class attack booster. But still they are generally built as chargers for +4, But going ranged you take order of the land for a +3 to attack rolls against your challenged target. That puts you up to 21/16/11, not great, but still better, plus LOTS of damage per arrow.
Barbs have Primal Hunter which gives a +3 to ranged attack rolls while raging and reckless abandon for another +3 if you were wanting to make a ranged barb. So 24/19/14, no accuracy issues here.
This is why people wouldn't be complaining about accuracy issues on other martial classes, they are up there where the fighter is at. Then there are plenty of 3/4 bab classes that can get about as accurate as well, they just don't have as many arrows in the air.
This is why people don't complain about most classes and why they did/do complain about monk and rogue, because those classes do struggle more to hit.
This is also why people dis on the fighter, fighting IS all he does, and he's not the best at it, he's comparable to other martials, who do other stuff too.