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In going through the Monk and Zen Archer via the CRB and APG, I see where the APG states that the Zen Archer loses the Monk's normal bonus feats. They are replaced by specific Zen Archer bonus feats. The lost bonus feats would be Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist. They get replaced with an archery bonus feat and Perfect Strike.
I've got some players questioning this interpretation. The point of the Zen Archer in its introduction is to become one with another weapon entirely-the bow.
Any thoughts?
No. Unarmed Strike is a class feature. Stunning Fist is a class feature. Bonus Feats is a separate class feature.
Those are the ones you get at 1, 2, 6, 10, etc.
The last is what is replaced.
You'll notice that Stunning Fist is then replaced, separately, by Perfect Strike.
Unarmed Strike is untouched. They retain Improved Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Feat, as well as the increased damage progression.
The problem is that it states firmly in the Zen Archer on page 115 of the APG that the Zen Archer loses the monk's bonus feats. Plural.
I know everyone uses it. I just would like official ruling on this.
You literally just stated the official ruling.
Let me count them for you.
Bonus Feat at level 1. One.
Bonus Feat at level 2. Two.
Bonus Feat at level 6. Three.
Bonus Feat at level 10. Four.
Bonus Feat at level 14. Five.
bonus Feat at level 18. Six.
Six. Six Feats. Ah ah ah.
Six is plural.
Unfortunately, it's clear as mud.
Not really. There's a class feature called bonus feats and that gets changed. There's a class feature called Unarmed Strike that's not mentioned anywhere in the archetype.
It's actually really straight forward. If you want to try to contort that into something it isn't that's on you, not the rules.
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Unarmed strike isn't a bonus feat. It is a class feature.
Bonus Feats is a separate class feature that allows you to select a feat from a very limited list. Improved Unarmed Strike is not one of the feats on that list, because it is granted by a different class feature that is not traded by the archetype.
A zen archer also does not lose the bonus feat they'd get at level 1 for being human. The only thing regarding "bonus feats" that the ZAM alters is the list of feats that the monk gets to choose from when they get a bonus feat at levels 1,2,6,etc.
Yup. Zen Archer definitely retains the Class Feature "Unarmed Strike". Nothing in the Zen Archer archetype replaces "Unarmed Strike", it replaces the class feature "Bonus Feats". That means anything listed under the "Bonus Feats" section is no long available, that does not mean Zen Archers look access to every single feat the class provides, only the ones listed under "Bonus Feats".
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Yes, seems a lot of people misunderstand the Zen Archer. Zen Archers do retain the monk's improved unarmed strike.
This also includes the ability to attack with any (reasonable) part of their body. This would include hands, elbows, knees, feet, or even the rare headbutt.
This means a Zen archer taking advantage of point blank shot to stand in melee can not only offer flanks to their allies (by threatening melee attacks with their feet), but is also capable of taking AoO's with unarmed (and at higher levels bow shots) when they are provoked!
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If you want to try to contort that into something it isn't that's on you, not the rules.
In two threads no less.
That's an unusual commitment to the (incorrect) notion that Zen Archers lose Improved Unarmed Strike.
IIRC, the only chained monk archetypes that alter unarmed strike are Tetori and Sohei, and none replace it.
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The problem is that it is not clear. The wording in the text suggests that the feat is lost. Nowhere does it say what you want it to say. The wording of the introduction to the Zen Archer implies that it trades its training of the body as a weapon for the bow instead.
Now, I understand why the Zen Archer would retain IUS, but the description is not clear.
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Now, I understand why the Zen Archer would retain IUS, but the description is not clear.
The issue is that archetypes are always very clear about what they replace or change. When they replace or change a class feature (or more than one feature) they refer to it by its name (e.g. "flurry of blows", "still mind").
A monk has the following class features:
Bonus Feats at 1,2,6,10,14,18
Flurry of Blows
Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Evasion
Fast Movement
Maneuver Training
Still Mind
Ki Pool
Slow Fall
High Jump
Purity of Body
Wholeness of Body
Improved Evasion
Diamond Body
Abundant Step
Diamond Soul
Quivering Palm
Timeless Body
Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Perfect Self
The Zen Archer alters the Bonus Feats at 1,2,6,10,14,18 (by making you choose from a different list), replaces Stunning Fist with Perfect Strike, replaces Evasion with "Way of the Bow", replaces Maneuver Training with Zen Archery, replaces Still Mind with Point Blank Master, alters Ki Pool by adding a new option, replaces Purity of Body with Ki Arrows, replaces Improved Evasion with Reflexive Shot, replaces Diamond Body with Trick Shot, and replaces Tongue of the Sun and Moon with Ki Focus Bow. All the abilities that are not in the previous list are unchanged from the base monk, including Unarmed Strike, Fast Movement, Slow Fall, High Jump, Wholeness of Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, and Perfect Self. All of those abilities should be read exactly as they are in the monk entry in the CRB.
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The problem is that it is not clear. The wording in the text suggests that the feat is lost. Nowhere does it say what you want it to say. The wording of the introduction to the Zen Archer implies that it trades its training of the body as a weapon for the bow instead.
Now, I understand why the Zen Archer would retain IUS, but the description is not clear.
The secret to understanding these is to look at the Monk entry in the PF Core Rulebook under the heading Class Features. Each class feature starts with a title in bold typeface.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
AC Bonus
Flurry of Blows
Unarmed Strike
Bonus Feat
Stunning Fist
Evasion
...and so on.
Unarmed Strike is a separate class feature from Bonus Feat because it falls under a separate title. Since the Zen Archer archetype makes no reference to the class feature titled Unarmed Strike, no change is made to that class feature.
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The secret to understanding these is to look at the Monk entry in the PF Core Rulebook under the heading Class Features. Each class feature starts with a title in bold typeface.
Thanks. I see how this is set up now. The setup is odd, but once you apply the odd Paizo system to it, the stuff begins to make sense. They should have used different words.
They should have used different words.
You just found the solution to 90% of the arguments in the rules forums.
The other 10% are either genuine misunderstanding or people slicing semantics while using a microscope.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Seems perfectly clear, an archetype feature replaces the class feature it says it does (and Zen Archer doesn't replace the "Unarmed Strike" class feature).
+1 crystal clear.
To OP: you are not going to get an official answer to this as it's reinforced with countless other posts on how different class features are different.