bracers of the merciful knight and anti paladin


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

would they be usable together? if not is there a version that would work with antipaladin?


An Antipaladin is not a Paladin. Even if they counted as a Paladin, they don't have the Lay on Hands class feature, so wouldn't benefit from the item anyway.

A GM might wish to create an equivalent item for Antipaladins and their Touch of Corruption for the sake of symmetry. To my knowledge, however, no such item has been published by Paizo.


Well Brew Bird, what do you make of...

Quote:

Touch of Corruption (Su)

Beginning at 2nd level, an antipaladin surrounds his hand with a fiendish flame, causing terrible wounds to open on those he touches. Each day he can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 his antipaladin level + his Charisma modifier. As a touch attack, an antipaladin can cause 1d6 points of damage for every two antipaladin levels he possesses. Using this ability is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Alternatively, an antipaladin can use this power to heal undead creatures, restoring 1d6 hit points for every two levels the antipaladin possesses. This ability is modified by any feat, spell, or effect that specifically works with the lay on hands paladin class feature. For example, the Extra Lay On Hands feat grants an antipaladin 2 additional uses of the touch of corruption class feature.

So, Bracers of the Merciful Knight should work with Touch of Corruption. The question is, how should it work? First part is obvious, the second part (the lesser restoration) is the part I am unsure of.


I'm also thinking they should work. As for the lesser restoration, I'm guessing not many creatures healed by negative energy would need it, but it's not totally impossible.


its for self healing so i would be fine with using lesser restoration on myself in case i get cha damage undead are only guarded against drain to all ability scores and damage to physical ones, but they are not immune to damage to mental ability scores so being able to use lesser restoration on myself would be really useful


An Antipaladin IS a Paladin. Alternate classes are big archetypes (hence why you can't multiclass between them and why Ninja can take a few Rogue archetypes)


deuxhero wrote:
An Antipaladin IS a Paladin. Alternate classes are big archetypes (hence why you can't multiclass between them and why Ninja can take a few Rogue archetypes)

There's also that matter of a slight alignment difference.


Claxon, it says feat, spell, or effect.

The bracers are an item, not a feat, spell, or effect, as the entry describes.

Therefore, the bracers would not be applicable for use with the Antipaladin's Touch of Corruption feature.

That being said, I think there should be an Antipaladin equivalent, so here's my take on the matter:

Bracers of the Merciless Knight wrote:
These cold iron and silver bracers are engraved with images of fiendish creatures. When worn by an antipaladin, he is considered four levels higher for the purposes of determining the uses per day and dice rolled for his touch of corruption class feature. Additionally, once per day, the wearer can infuse a use of touch of corruption with additional power, providing doom unto the target creature, as the spell, if the creature fails the saving throw of the touch of corruption.

Do with that as you may.


Is the effect of a magic item an effect?


It's the property of an item, not an effect of an item.


So how do I know when something is an effect or a property?


Java Man wrote:
So how do I know when something is an effect or a property?

It's a property because what is enhancing the feature in question is an item. Items aren't feats, spells, or effects (which I assume is what you're trying to get me to say, that items are effects, which is wrong).

Sure, items can create effects, or enhance existing ones (such as the description that the item in question allows). The only time an item is an effect is in the case of a spell such as Fabricate, and usually the ramifications for such are easily and clearly defined as simply creating an actual item.

That's not the case here. The bracers aren't an effect of a feat, spell, or other feature. They're an item, crafted through a feat or other ability. The item is improving the Lay On Hands feature. Touch of Corruption is treated as Lay On Hands for spells, feats, and effects, of which items aren't. Therefore, it stands to reason that items which improve Lay On Hands don't improve Touch of Corruption, since items don't fall into the listed ramifications.

You're more than welcome to make a FAQ about what all falls into the "other effects" portion of the Antipaladin Touch of Corruption ability (it certainly could use a touch up and clarification), but as it is currently written, and as I interpret the written rules, it doesn't look like the bracers, as written, function properly for Antipaladins (and quite frankly, it's more fitting that way).

**EDIT** Coding is hard...


It's an effect, it works.


Okay, I follow the idea that items are a separate thing from the listed stuff in the touch of corruption rules. My confusion now is trying to think of an "effect" that is not coming from a feat, spell or item. FCB? Trait? Prestige class feature? And is any of this defined anywhere?

Edit: realized I have been sounding a bit arguementative, side effect of being short spoken I guess. Honestly just tryimg to follow folks' reasoning, the mix of defined game terms, implications from scattered FAQs, standard english definitions, and commonly understood concepts gets convoluted at times.


I say it works, It works for Dhampirs, and I think there is a feat that lets you heal from negative energy, in one of the evil books, I remember one of my players found it, and all my players wanted to take it before starting Way of the wicked AP, because we had a Dhampir anti paladin in the group, but it was not in one of my allowed books. I remember one of the requirements being high con.

Properties still cause effects.


master_marshmallow wrote:

It's an effect, it works.

Items aren't effects. They create effects, or enhance existing or creatable effects, but they aren't in and of themselves effects. The only time an item is an effect is in the case of the Fabricate spell, and even then...

Unless you can prove that an item is an effect, which is doubtful, you're left with table variation, at best. At worst, you're left with the Touch of Corruption class feature requiring FAQ/Errata to function the way you're claiming it functions, to which I say "make a thread and wait for an answer."


What if it works, but it increases the positive energy of ToC from 0, thus being extremely counterproductive in most situations?


would we then be able to flag this for faq darksol?


Lady-J wrote:
would we then be able to flag this for faq darksol?

If you want this to be the FAQ thread, then sure.

But, I don't think it would be a good idea, since I doubt it would warrant a proper answer.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

It's an effect, it works.

Items aren't effects. They create effects, or enhance existing or creatable effects, but they aren't in and of themselves effects. The only time an item is an effect is in the case of the Fabricate spell, and even then...

Unless you can prove that an item is an effect, which is doubtful, you're left with table variation, at best. At worst, you're left with the Touch of Corruption class feature requiring FAQ/Errata to function the way you're claiming it functions, to which I say "make a thread and wait for an answer."

Prove it isn't an effect with game terms, cite sources.

On mobile. Will cite mine later.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
would we then be able to flag this for faq darksol?

If you want this to be the FAQ thread, then sure.

But, I don't think it would be a good idea, since I doubt it would warrant a proper answer.

so how would we go about faqing it? like how would a new thread be worded to get a proper answer


The first post should be a concise wording of the specific question.


ok so i posted a faq thread about it is it worded good enough or do i need to change some wording here


Claxon wrote:

Well Brew Bird, what do you make of...

[quote omitted]

Well, that's embarrassing. Show's what I know about antipaladins.

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