I dont think Ranged Builds are generally viable because of how many penalties your have that require taking feats to "fix" unlike a melee build where its all positives(except two-weapon).
Any character I try to make it effectively useless without, at the minimum, Precise Shot and Improved Precise SHot to actually be able to hit as well as a basic club.
There are classes that can be Ranged built better like the Zen Archer Monk for plenty of free feats, such as shot-cutting at level 6 to have Improved precise Shot unlike most classes that take until 11. It also has no use for Rapid Shot and Manyshot saving 2 feats right there. if Only the Unchained Monk could combine with the Zen Archer.
The ONLY thing I know that can help is a certain Trait called Deadeye Bowman, and its not Pathfinder Society legal.
So is there any way to get past this or are ranged weapons just circumstantially useful like wide areas.
-----------------------
Feats I know of for the build
Must-haves: Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Master
Manyshot(not for guns)
Maybe: Clustered Shot
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus(required for some feats)
weapon specialization(required for Point blank master)
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Combat reflexes
Advanced: Martial Weapon proficiency(firearms)
Gunsmithing
Rapid reload
So can anyone but a Fighter, Avenger Vigilante, or Zen Archer work?
A Ranger can also get IPS early. Still, despite the problems you are mentioning Ranged is still one of the strongest fighting methods in the game. The feat support for them is awesome and they can get to-hit bonuses super easy.
^+1 to that.
Melee characters have to deal with Ranged characters and that is a harsh penalty to bear. Besides which if I recall most dungeons are ten feet wide so allow some mobility for Players and NPC's.
...and if all fails try talking with your teammates about their combat strategies.
Ranger is actually worse than the Zen Archer as the only way to get Point Blank Master is to pick it as your level 6 feat. Zen Archer gets it for free very early when most classes cant take Point Blank Master because of its Fighter class requirements.
The biggest issue I find is just how many feats need to be taken just to be equal to a simple melee weapon like a sword. Ranged weapons have so many drawbacks that feats are required to fix.
There are plenty of "waste feats" with minor effects that eat up your rare feat slots.
To make a Fighter with the same chance to hit as a basic Level 1 dagger would require level 11 and about a dozen feats.
Anyone with martial weapon training can use a Composite longbow, but making that your primary weapon is impractical by design. Mostly its just having any ranged weapon. It doesnt take any feats to be good with a Greatsword.
Only certain classes with bonus feats make a ranged fighting build viable so for example, I cannot make a Archer Magus.
Eldritch Archer Magus is in fact solid. They use buff spells with spell combat to make up for not having every feat.
The essential ranged feats are point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot & manyshot (for bow users), or rapid reload (for gun users). Any full BAB character can get these by level 7. Anything more than that is gravy. Sometimes tasty gravy, like clustered shots, but still not actually necessary. Point blank master is nice but more often than not a 5' step, or moving to a safe position early on will serve the same purpose.
By experience rather than theorycraft ranged is a stronger style than melee. Partly that's getting off full attacks more often, partly it's easier target selection, partly it's hurting the enemy before they hurt you. Generally DR's easier to beat by carrying a selection of cold iron/silver/etc. ammo, (even if you don't have clustered shots) than it would to be to lug around a golf bag of swords.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cant even make a no-weakness Archer? Sigh, well there's another permanent game flaw to put on my list.
Bolt Ace Gunslinger + Weapon master Fighter works great and it is pretty straigth foward.
Race: Human
Str 10 Dex 17+2 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 7
Class: Gunslinger (Bolt Ace) 5 / Fighter (Weapon Master) 15
1 - G1 - Crossbow Maven, Deeds (Sharp Shoot, Gunslinger Dodge, Vigilant Loading), Grit, Point-blank shot, Precise Shot
2 - G2 - Nimble +1
3 - G3 - Deeds (Shooter's Resolve, Gunslinger Initiative, Pistol-Whip), Rapid reload
4 - G4 - Deadly Aim, +1 Dex
5 - G5 - Crossbow Training, Rapid shot
6 - F1 - Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)
7 - F2 - Weapon Guard, Weapon Specialization (Light Crossbow), Point-Blank Master
8 - F3 - Weapon Training (Light Crossbow), +1 Dex
9 - F4 - Improved Critical, Burrowing Shot
10 - F5 - Reliable Strike
11 - F6 - Improved Precise Shot, Advanced Weapon Traing (Trained Initiative)
12 - F7 - Advanced Weapon Traing (Warrior Spirit) +1 Dex
13 - F8 - Clustered Shots, Critical Focus
14 - F9 - Mirror Move
15 - F10 - Blinding Critical, Iron Will
16 - F11 - +1 Dex
17 - F12 - Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
18 - F13 - Deadly Critical
19 - F14 - Critical Mastery, Censoring Critical
20 - F15 - +1 Dex
By 5th level you are a perfectly operational ranged combatant who also gets Dex to damage and a crit increment. By 7th, you can shot in melee no problem. By 9th, you have a 17-20 x3 critical and once per round your shot imposes a -2 to attack, skills and saves.
By 12th you have almost anything you should want and the option to grant an extra +4 magic upgrade to your weapon (provided you get some Gloves of Dueling) several times a day.
Past that, I just put the rest of the levels as an example with a critical build to take advantage of your nice crit range. But realisticaly, you don't really need it as you pack tremendous damage and can end a lot of opponents with a critical shot.
I dont think that us a legal build. To get Weapon Specialization you have to have 4 Fighter levels, and you cannot have Advanced Weapon Training until 9 Fighter levels. Gunslinger levels dont stack for that.
I thought of two similar builds using a Fighter/Gunslinger and a Vigilante/Gunslinger Multiclass. They have the Gunslinger firearm training bonus later but many more overall stats, feats, and in the Vigilante/Gun's case more skills.
Bows and crossbows are a temporary measure until Advanced Firearms can be purchased. Once they are then having 3-6 shots per turn with Touch AC and high BAB make it the closest thing to a marksmen character.
Can you put a bayonet on your crossbow for a melee weapon? GM fiat I think, but it makes sense if that is our sharphooter's only weapon.
"Bayonets are close combat weapons designed to fit into the grooves or muzzles of CROSSBOWS and firearms."
So the answer is yes. There are some problems with that. It counts as a separate weapon for enhancing, its only a d6 weapon using strength and it cannot use dexterity for To-Hit rolls with Weapon Finesse as its a two-handed weapon.
Early on a Bayonet is a pretty good choice for balanced strength/dexterity character so you dont have to drop your crossbow and draw a melee weapon. Its a 1d8 weapon that becomes a 1d6+strength. Just stab.
Point Blank Master is just really a must-have feat after a point as soon as enemies have Combat Reflexes, reach weapons, readied actions, or any combination to keep ranged characters pinned down.
Any alternatives like the spell Bowstaff have their own problems.
Not sure how helpful but I personally like Ranged Vital Strike builds since some feats reward single attacks. High Acrobatics to help run when pinned down helps out.
I like dips into Zen Archer for access to flurry. I think you end up with one more attack than rapid shot and many shot. May have to check me on that though. Then if you want to use Improved Precise Shot or need to move Vital Strike, and if you need to make it rain full attack.
Zen Archer is one of the best, if not THE best classes for Archery, though not Firearms compatible with GM approval for a specific combination I know of.
It largely skips many of the feat problems by having them as class features. Flurry is effectively Rapid Shot and Manyshot combined. Its better eventually as you have more ranged attacks(seven) than anyone else and have higher BAB with a full-attack than single. Not good with dipping though as Pre-unchained Flurry stacks with no other abilities that grant extra attacks. Rapid Shot and manyshot would be redundant feats.
Rapid Shot(free), Manyshot(free), Weapon Focus(free), Weapon Specialization(free), Point Blank Master(free), Snap Shot(free)
Then you have up to 6 other bonus feats and you can choose from Combat Reflexes, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot.
If You could Flurry with Advanced Firearms like a Pepperbox Rifle then you would be a solo Action Hero.
------------
There are certain feats to make single attacks more relevant. Vital Strike multiples the weapon damage BUT does not do anything about modifiers, so its +1d8 and when you get to all the various damage bonuses a +1d8(or more with Improved and Greater version) is forgettable, especially when just shooting twice or more would do more damage. Clustered Shot actually rewards you for using many attacks by combining your hits into one single super-arrow that easily bypasses any damage reduction.
Big drawback of ranged weapons is you cannot increase damage in the same simple way as melee weapons, that is by stacking strength for hit and damage bonuses. Most archer/gunners focus on dexterity which doesnt increase damage. Zen Archer is more complicated as it also heavily uses Wisdom. Key detail about the Gunslinger is that it can pick weapons to add its dexterity bonus to damage rolls.
I dont think that is a legal build. To get Weapon Specialization you have to have 4 Fighter levels, and you cannot have Advanced Weapon Training until 9 Fighter levels. Gunslinger levels dont stack for that.
You are correct on the weapon specialization, was doing this on memory, my bad. However, you do get the Advanced Weapon Training on lv8, as the Weapon Master archetype gets it by 3rd level and improves it every four.
To correct the ilegality, 7th level could go like this:
7 - F2 - Weapon Guard, Overwatch Style, Overwatch Tactician
This style may come in handy to counter casters with two ready shots as a standar action while you keep on the move avoiding being locked in melee.