Respecting LGBTQ people: Is this character backstory disrespectful or flattering?


Advice

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I recently joined a new campaign, and made an Aasimar (Angelkin) paladin. After reading over my copy of "Blood of Angels", a passage on Aasimar origins and births struck my fancy. It basically boils down to same-sex couples praying for children and being blessed with an Aasimar child. So I thought: what if my Aasimar paladin was born to a lesbian couple who wanted a child?

After all things like height, weight and age were calculated, my Aasimar paladin Ragathon (named after the Empyreal Lord Ragathiel) is 76 years old from Vigil in Lastwall. He's buried his birth mother after she's died of old age, and his second mother disappeared during a campaign in the Hold of Belkzen decades ago.

I see Ragathon's parents as being a paladin and cleric of Iomedae. With his birth mother being the cleric. I like the concept, but I'm a bit leery of using gay characters as my parents in my backstory. Mainly because I'm a straight white man born to straight parents and I worry about being insensitive to other groups.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

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Hi Madokar, and thanks for both seeking to bring some diversity to your character background and also being aware it's potentially thorny, and asking for opinions!

I'm happy to tell you what I think but with the caveat that LGBTQ+ people aren't a monolith (just like all other minorities); one person may tell you 'this is fine' and another person may feel differently, etc. It's sometimes impossible to please Everyone, but the best you can do is listen and be respectful to anything that is said, etc.

My personal take is that this is a sweet portrayal of inclusivity and I'd see nothing wrong with it (though I'd issue a mild caution against referring to either parent as 'the father' - they're both the mothers, unless one of them identifies as male, which doesn't seem to be what you're going for. A lot of lesbian couples deal with the notion of 'well, who's the 'man' in your relationship, then?' - which may or may not match how they feel about themselves, one of them may be butch, or both, or neither-- but the assumption that someone needs to be 'the father', however mild an assumption, reinforces some gender roles that a queer couple may be uncomfortable with. This is pretty nitpicky, I'm just trying to advise you on all possibilities since you have sincerely asked for opinions on it.)

Your intentions seem good and I'd be happy to play at the table with the character you have described. Cheers for making a good faith attempt.


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I would treat them like you would any other character's parents. As people. There is no reason to make a big deal about their sexuality, it might not ever come up unless someone notices that Ragathon mentions two mothers when speaking of his childhood, or questions him on his strong, negative, reaction to the homophobic comment made in his presence.


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dien wrote:

Hi Madokar, and thanks for both seeking to bring some diversity to your character background and also being aware it's potentially thorny, and asking for opinions!

I'm happy to tell you what I think but with the caveat that LGBTQ+ people aren't a monolith (just like all other minorities); one person may tell you 'this is fine' and another person may feel differently, etc. It's sometimes impossible to please Everyone, but the best you can do is listen and be respectful to anything that is said, etc.

My personal take is that this is a sweet portrayal of inclusivity and I'd see nothing wrong with it (though I'd issue a mild caution against referring to either parent as 'the father' - they're both the mothers, unless one of them identifies as male, which doesn't seem to be what you're going for. A lot of lesbian couples deal with the notion of 'well, who's the 'man' in your relationship, then?' - which may or may not match how they feel about themselves, one of them may be butch, or both, or neither-- but the assumption that someone needs to be 'the father', however mild an assumption, reinforces some gender roles that a queer couple may be uncomfortable with. This is pretty nitpicky, I'm just trying to advise you on all possibilities since you have sincerely asked for opinions on it.)

Your intentions seem good and I'd be happy to play at the table with the character you have described. Cheers for making a good faith attempt.

Part of why I ask these questions. The paladin mother was a bit more masculine but still identified as female. I suppose I identified the paladin parent as the father figure because she acted in that capacity. So I learned something today. Don't categorize same-sex parents with traditional parental roles unless they identify with the roles.


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More then anything else, the core issue I could see here is: how confortable will the other people around the table (players and GM) be with your concept?

If they are comfortable with it, I don't forsee any issues as it is a background element that probably won't have any repercussion on the campaign itself.


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Starfinder Superscriber

As a HUGE ally for the LGBTQ+ folks, and as dien said, the only issue is the "father". You could make it the more martially inclined parent and be just as good.

Aside from that, I think it's a great back story.


Andre Roy wrote:

More then anything else, the core issue I could see here is: how confortable will the other people around the table (players and GM) be with your concept?

If they are comfortable with it, I don't forsee any issues as it is a background element that probably won't have any repercussion on the campaign itself.

I asked some questions before I signed up with the group. They are pretty liberal. They also have a few LGBTQ relatives. Which is why I posted the concept here before going forward with the character in the campaign.


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I concur with Dien, on his/her entire post. Definitely don't call one of the mothers the father, that is wildly inappropriate. Just accept that your paladin has two mommies.

Above all, one core principle to treating LGBTQ+ topics with respect is to treat it naturally. Nobody's going to be comfortable if you constantly point out how "unusual" or "strange" something about them is. The easiest way to respect your paladin's parentage is treating it as if it were the most natural thing in the world, that there's nothing different or 'lesser' about them than there would be for a heterosexual couple in the same circumstances.


Got the hint on the whole "father" angle. Won't happen again.


Saethori wrote:
I concur with Dien, on his/her entire post. Definitely don't call one of the mothers the father, that is wildly inappropriate.

Well if one of the parental figures takes on a more patronly role and is inclined to be referred to as such they should be. Given that a big part of the movement is letting people self identify as whatever they find most appropriate the idea of it being 'wildly inappropriate' seems against the spirit of the movement.


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And here we see a prime example of the non-monolithic nature mentioned upthread.


It's worth considering how your character's parents wanted their child to refer to them, as it's worthwhile to be able to differentiate between the two in case you want to get the attention of one and not the other. It's unlikely you want to have one be "dad" (unless you wanted one of your parents to be a trans man, but then it's not a lesbian couple.) I mean, if one of your parents is helping you with your schoolwork and the other was making dinner, you might have a question for one and not the other.

So just like every same sex couple who's going to have a kid, consider how the child would tell them apart with different references. Is it Mommy and Mama? Perhaps "Mom" appended with an initial? Mom and some other word (a couple I know goes with "Mom" and "Ima," which is the Hebrew word for mom).


Totally awesome backstory! :D

I don't think it's disrespectful at all. ^_^

I can totally see a good-aligned deity granting a wish like that. ;)


PossibleCabbage wrote:

It's worth considering how your character's parents wanted their child to refer to them, as it's worthwhile to be able to differentiate between the two in case you want to get the attention of one and not the other. It's unlikely you want to have one be "dad" (unless you wanted one of your parents to be a trans man, but then it's not a lesbian couple.) I mean, if one of your parents is helping you with your schoolwork and the other was making dinner, you might have a question for one and not the other.

So just like every same sex couple who's going to have a kid, consider how the child would tell them apart with different references. Is it Mommy and Mama? Perhaps "Mom" appended with an initial? Mom and some other word (a couple I know goes with "Mom" and "Ima," which is the Hebrew word for mom).

I'm reminded of late Sailor Moon, where Hotaru would refer to her guardians as Michiru-mama, Setsuna-mama, and Haruka-papa. Though given her young age when she called her guardians those names, she probably couldn't tell that Haruka was a woman.

The Exchange

Would like to see a male parent couple with this blessing!
But a nice idea for a strange adventure!

And it's a little bit sad that both parents are gone....not so much impact on the story!
(Who said Necromancy?!?^^)


Bearserk wrote:

Would like to see a male parent couple with this blessing!

But a nice idea for a strange adventure!

And it's a little bit sad that both parents are gone....not so much impact on the story!
(Who said Necromancy?!?^^)

The Miracle spell might be involved with two gay men wanting a child.

Ragathon is an Aasimar born to human parents who is 76 years old. Unless some serious magic was used to offset the aging process, chances are both his moms are dead. That, and one of his moms never came back from the Hold of Belkzen...


Bearserk wrote:
(Who said Necromancy?!?^^)

I kinda doubt an Angel-Blooded Aasimar (Angelkin) Paladin would defile their own parents corpses by turning them into undead dude. Or where you refering to tolerable Necromancy (aka speak with dead and such)?


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swoosh wrote:
Saethori wrote:
I concur with Dien, on his/her entire post. Definitely don't call one of the mothers the father, that is wildly inappropriate.
Well if one of the parental figures takes on a more patronly role and is inclined to be referred to as such they should be. Given that a big part of the movement is letting people self identify as whatever they find most appropriate the idea of it being 'wildly inappropriate' seems against the spirit of the movement.

I do agree with this in regards to actual people, and when such people are involved one should definitely defer to the character's own identity.

However, in the context of fictional characters, as is the case of the paladin's parents, we do not have such luxury as asking them, as their backstory is in the agency of the player. So what's important is what gives the least impression of being offensive, and on this note is where I suggested calling both parents mothers.


Berselius wrote:
Bearserk wrote:
(Who said Necromancy?!?^^)
I kinda doubt an Angel-Blooded Aasimar (Angelkin) Paladin would defile their own parents corpses by turning them into undead dude. Or where you refering to tolerable Necromancy (aka speak with dead and such)?

Though if a necromancer specifically raised Ragathon's parents as a means to make Ragathon suffer, it might be a potent story hook.

The Exchange

Madokar Valortouched wrote:


Though if a necromancer specifically raised Ragathon's parents as a means to make Ragathon suffer, it might be a potent story hook.

*BINGO* ^^

I'm more the dark fantasy guy...


So, as a complete aside, are you intending your aasimar to be venerable or are you using the older age rules from Advanced Race Guide? With the second printing of the ARG, aasimars age exactly as humans do.


Ashram wrote:
So, as a complete aside, are you intending your aasimar to be venerable or are you using the older age rules from Advanced Race Guide? With the second printing of the ARG, aasimars age exactly as humans do.

I did not know that. I guess I'll have to roll his age again.

So Ragathon is either 17 or 76, depending on which version of Aasimar aging rules is used in the group. Which changes whether his parents are alive or not.


Madokar Valortouched wrote:
Ashram wrote:
So, as a complete aside, are you intending your aasimar to be venerable or are you using the older age rules from Advanced Race Guide? With the second printing of the ARG, aasimars age exactly as humans do.

I did not know that. I guess I'll have to roll his age again.

So Ragathon is either 17 or 76, depending on which version of Aasimar aging rules is used in the group. Which changes whether his parents are alive or not.

Which very likely played a serious factor in them deciding to speed up Aasimar aging! If the child of a human couple takes seventy years simply to stop being a child, it means a great many parents won't survive to see their Aasimar children reach adulthood.


Saethori wrote:
Madokar Valortouched wrote:
Ashram wrote:
So, as a complete aside, are you intending your aasimar to be venerable or are you using the older age rules from Advanced Race Guide? With the second printing of the ARG, aasimars age exactly as humans do.

I did not know that. I guess I'll have to roll his age again.

So Ragathon is either 17 or 76, depending on which version of Aasimar aging rules is used in the group. Which changes whether his parents are alive or not.

Which very likely played a serious factor in them deciding to speed up Aasimar aging! If the child of a human couple takes seventy years simply to stop being a child, it means a great many parents won't survive to see their Aasimar children reach adulthood.

Makes a lot of sense. I guess once they decided to flesh out the Aasimar, Tiefling and Dhampyr races, they realized the fridge logic in that if it took these races four times as long to mature, they would outlive most of their mortal progenitors.


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So, this character is:

1. Essentially fine from an LGBT sensitivity standpoint

and 2. Utterly intolerable from a RAW obsession standpoint.

;D


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Pretty sure it was actually introduced because the native outsiders' incredibly long lifespans didn't gel with how they wanted them to be portrayed in the Golarion setting, which they're basically humans with some otherworldly features.

Scarab Sages

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Saethori wrote:

Above all, one core principle to treating LGBTQ+ topics with respect is to treat it naturally. Nobody's going to be comfortable if you constantly point out how "unusual" or "strange" something about them is.

As a strange person, I am offended at the insinuation that being viewed as strange should have a negative connotation! Harrumph!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

OK. I have a similar issue in my campaign. I have a deity that grants children to single parents, and the resulting children are halflings. Is that offensive at all?

Scarab Sages

I don't see why it should be; in fact, I think that's a clever idea. It certainly has strong roots in folklore and mythology.

Maybe you should give all such characters more ability points than normal (since mortal children of deities tend to wind up becoming Heroes of one sort or another), or some other substantial divine perk.

If you're concerned about offending midgets and dwarfs somehow, bear in mind the difference between small humanoids as opposed to small humans (and note my spelling of 'dwarfs' to refer to humans with dwarfism as opposed to 'Dwarves,' an entirely different species of miners, artisans, and warriors).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

They get to be halflings! They don't need any more ability points! :-D

And they're not the mortal children of deities, just the mortal children of a single mortal parent.

Also, this is for a 5th Edition campaign.


...Guys, we know "midget" is a slur, right? We're aware? Why do I see it so often on the Paizo forums, of all places?

Scarab Sages

I didn't know that. I thought it was the proper term for someone who is ultra-short, like a dwarf, but for some specific medical condition apart from dwarfism (and they wind up being shorter than dwarfs and looking different in other ways, i.e. Verne Troyer vs Peter Dinkelage).


The backstory provided is pretty bare, I don't see anything which could be considered to be offensive to any reasonable person. There's no rule saying that one may only make characters that match his own race/sex/gender/color/alignment/religion/whatever. Playing things you are not yourself is a large part of what role playing is.


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Wanting to be respectful of people who are different from you are is something all decent people should do. Certainly, we are all fallible and will make mistakes, but "attempting to foresee what mistakes we will make, and consider how to circumvent them" is how we grow as people.

Rather than saying "I'm going to screw up, so I best not try" it's better to go through life trying not to upset people for no reason, but if you do then apologize (this costs precisely nothing) then try to understand the perspective of the upset person so you can not only avoid future instances of upsetting people for no reason, but you come to a better understanding of the world.

If you read up, you'll notice that the OP did actually receive useful advice from people who treated with his concern earnestly. Considering that this has already happened, showing up and saying "don't bother caring" is needlessly antagonistic towards not only the OP but also everybody who tried to help him.

Suffice to say, if you have nothing respectful or constructive to say, please don't hit "submit."

(As an aside I think people treat "there's always someone offended by anything" as an axiom when that really doesn't hold up under empirical scrutiny. I find that if you really consider what things upset people, you'll find they're fairly predictable and are far from the class of "all things." After all, I challenge anybody to find someone legitimately offended by the statement "Squids primarily eat crustaceans, fish, and other squid.")


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I added this to the agenda for the last meeting of the gay agenda. The ruling gay council has deliberated and has come to a decision.

The official gay decree is as follows:

It's fine. No worries.


TCG! I haven't seen you around these parts in a while. Did you have to deliver some coffee to an island or something?

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