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Topic says it all, basically planning to go in that order
At 20 will be
Cost: One feat, 6 skill points, one exploit
---KS religion 3, KS Arcane 3, Deific Obedience, Divine Magic
BAB 10 (Suckage; 1/2 BAB standard; 3+3+0+4)
Exploits: 4 (5-1)
Revelations: 1
Arcane Casting: Spells per level 18, CL 20 (Arcane Knack)
Divine Casting: 10th level
What book is the Divine Magic exploit from?
Two books actually to get it:
Arcane Discovery is in Arcane Anthology
http://paizo.com/products/btpy9i8l?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Arcane-Antho logy
The actual discovery is in called Faith Magic and can be found in Player Companion: Magic Tactics Toolbox
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1601258380/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp= 1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1601258380&linkCode=as2&tag =httpwwwd20pfs-20&linkId=d8ffd00978bf9b7a561813f3ca10658b
That doesn't work for a few reasons.
1. The FAQ clarified that you need 2nd level class-granted spellcasting not just the ability to cast a single 2nd level spell through some technical means.
If you discount the FAQ, then:
2. You need to have 12 levels in Arcanist before you can take a 2nd level spell spell through Arcane Discovery (Faith Magic) because Arcane Discovery counts your Acanist levels as half a wizard level for the purpose of qualifying. Arcanists can't cast 3rd level spells ("must be one level lower than the highest level you can cast") until 6th (6 x 2 = 12).
It's a poor build regardless. Let's just assume you numbers (because you can't do it with the real numbers) and assume you focus on increasing your arcanist levels first.
A. You're a level in spell power behind a wizard for levels 1-6 (half a spell level). That's fine. All sorcerers and arcanists live this way.
B. You take evangelist and now you're two levels in spell power behind for levels 7-9 (a whole spell level). That is, you're casting 3rd levels spells for 2 levels (7-8) while the wizard and Cleric are casting 4th level spells. You finally cast 4th level spells at the same time the wizard and cleric get 5th level spells. And the encounters assume the power of a 5th level spell in the party's resources.
C. You take your level in Oracle and now you're three levels in power behind (a spell level and a half). Level 11 and you're still casting 4th level spells while the wizard and cleric are casting 6th level spells.
This is obviously for a home game, so your GM can adjust difficulty for your party composition and plans, but compared to single class casters, it is weaker in spell power.
At 20th you have 1 5th level divine spell and you're just reaching 8th level arcane spells upon level-up.
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Yeah, I knew Faith Magic, but I didn't know of a "Divine Magic," so I wanted to make sure I knew what we were discussing. Thanks, Jason
That doesn't work for a few reasons.
1. The FAQ clarified that you need 2nd level class-granted spellcasting not just the ability to cast a single 2nd level spell through some technical means.
First, the FAQ did not such thing. It just said the SLA do not meet the requirements of "able to cast x-level spells" or "able to cast arcane spells."
Secondly, this IS a class granted spellcasting ability. You are casting a 2nd level spell, that is specifically divine, using the spellcasting class feature of your class.
2. You need to have 12 levels in Arcanist before you can take a 2nd level spell spell through Arcane Discovery (Faith Magic) because Arcane Discovery counts your Acanist levels as half a wizard level for the purpose of qualifying. Arcanists can't cast 3rd level spells ("must be one level lower than the highest level you can cast") until 6th (6 x 2 = 12).
I don't think you have that right. It says "for the purpose of qualifying." So the 1/2 Arcanist level applies only to qualifying for the discovery. Like how Alchemical Affinity requires Wizard 5 to select it, so you would have to be Arcanist 10. Faith Magic doesn't have a pre-requisite to select it, so the 1/2 Arcanist level doesn't have any effect.
Aside from that, I agree that losing caster levels is ALWAYS bad, but especially bad when playing a class that already gets spells a little later. So I would recommend dropping the Evangelist.
Arcanist 9/Oracle 1/MT 10
The thing is, what do you want it to do? In your previous thread you presented a rather unfocused character which wouldn't be able to make much use of the mystic theurge and which seemed to be trying to melee a bit. Rather than looking at a class breakdown and asking if it 'works' how about thinking about some in-play goals and how it would match against them?
Thank you Samasboy1; I thought my reading of the rules were off for a minute, then I tried to post a response and it came out sounding like an attack, so did not post it.
The thing is, what do you want it to do? In your previous thread you presented a rather unfocused character which wouldn't be able to make much use of the mystic theurge and which seemed to be trying to melee a bit. Rather than looking at a class breakdown and asking if it 'works' how about thinking about some in-play goals and how it would match against them?
The problem I am running into is a bit of conflicting goals
"What the group needs" which is some front line fighters...
To my character's goal: trying to understand magic (and everything else)in all of its forms.
To my player goal of trying some new class features I have not got to play with yet
To expand on what I said about the character so far (Arcanist 2)
He is the unfavored son of an elvish merchant (his twin has all the love). He has spent many years in study, trying at first to impress his father, then to get lost in the tomes of history, magic, religion, etc...
As things have gone worse at home he has hit the road, to find out as much of the world that he can...
Okay, I know LOREMASTER...
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So, I didn't see the "other thread" so I'll just be able to give you an answer from a mechanical perspective (not an RP perspective).
Using the discovery path is highly technical but appears to be legal as far as I can see.
I'm not exactly sure what you are attempting to accomplish with the Evangelist levels. If it's roleplaying, fine. But four levels of Evangelist doesn't really get you much of anything mechanically that you couldn't get otherwise. There's a feat in Divine Anthology (Diverse Obedience) that lets you choose which set of boons - evangelist, exalted, or sentinel - you get even without taking levels in the prestige class. And you get each boon two HD earlier.
Delaying a class feature (like when you get spells) is usually a subpar choice.
I would probably go:
Arcanist 6
Oracle 1
Mystic Theurge 10
Whatever you want 3
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He can't go Arcanist 6.
Faith Magic requires the divine spell you choose be 2 levels lower than the maximum you can cast. So to get a 2nd level divine spell, you need 4th level spells (Arcanist 8).
But then he needs an Exploit to choose Arcane Discovery, which he gets at 9th.
actually there is a way at 9 HD (8 arcanist, 1 Oracle), by taking the extra exploit feat
To be a front-line fighter you need to be good at hitting, to do significant damage or debuffing, and to be able to survive return attacks. At 2nd level swinging a longsword with mage armor up may be enough to do that, but all three qualifications are going to become harder soon.
You might be able to use touch attack spells to handle the first two and the likes of mirror image to handle the third but that's pretty expensive in spell slots, which is an arcanist's Achilles heel. If you go that way anyway, the Rime Spell metamagic on the Frostbite spell may give enough of a debuff to be useful & with one touch/level it saves on those precious slots.
Summoning stuff to fight for you runs into the problem that you may not always have a spare round to do so before the fighting gets close; it may be your best option anyway from ~6-10th level.
If Loremaster fits it's probably going to work better for you than adding Oracle casting 8-10 levels behind your character level. (Edit: or even 6 levels behind if Belafon's point flies with your GM.)
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He can't go Arcanist 6.
Faith Magic requires the divine spell you choose be 2 levels lower than the maximum you can cast. So to get a 2nd level divine spell, you need 4th level spells (Arcanist 8).
But then he needs an Exploit to choose Arcane Discovery, which he gets at 9th.
Actually I asked an almost identical question about the alchemist Spell Knowledge discovery and got a developer response - it counts as the level you prepare it at, not the level it was originally. (So selecting a first level spell would make it count as a second level spell.)
When you first prepare your spells for the day, you can prepare this spell once, using a spell slot 1 level higher than the spell’s actual level. This is cast as a divine spell.
Also if I am an 8th level alchemist and pick a 1st level wizard spell, I have to use a second level alchemist slot to prepare it. Is it a first level spell or a second level spell?For you it's second - it's the same level as the extract slot needed to cast it. It's like break enchantment being a 4th level spell for a bard, and 5th level for a cleric.
You're right about needing the exploit. But you can take the Extra Arcanist Exploit feat at 7th level (the oracle level).
Actually I asked an almost identical question about the alchemist Spell Knowledge discovery and got a developer response - it counts as the level you prepare it at, not the level it was originally.
Well, that's pretty neat. I interpreted the "spell's actual level" part of Faith Magic to mean that the 2nd level spell would count as 2nd level, even though you cast if from a 3rd level slot.
When you first prepare your spells for the day, you can prepare this spell once, using a spell slot 1 level higher than the spell’s actual level. This is cast as a divine spell.
With Owen's response, you only need a 1st level divine spell (cast from a 2nd level slot) to count as your 2nd level divine spell.
Cool beans!
To be a front-line fighter you need to be good at hitting, to do significant damage or debuffing, and to be able to survive return attacks. At 2nd level swinging a longsword with mage armor up may be enough to do that, but all three qualifications are going to become harder soon.
You might be able to use touch attack spells to handle the first two and the likes of mirror image to handle the third but that's pretty expensive in spell slots, which is an arcanist's Achilles heel. If you go that way anyway, the Rime Spell metamagic on the Frostbite spell may give enough of a debuff to be useful & with one touch/level it saves on those precious slots.
Summoning stuff to fight for you runs into the problem that you may not always have a spare round to do so before the fighting gets close; it may be your best option anyway from ~6-10th level.
If Loremaster fits it's probably going to work better for you than adding Oracle casting 8-10 levels behind your character level.
I realize that I will probably not be able to do front line...the 3/4 BABs will have to make do :) I am leaning towards Loremaster right now...
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Actually I asked an almost identical question about the alchemist Spell Knowledge discovery and got a developer response - it counts as the level you prepare it at, not the level it was originally.Well, that's pretty neat. I interpreted the "spell's actual level" part of Faith Magic to mean that the 2nd level spell would count as 2nd level, even though you cast if from a 3rd level slot.
When you first prepare your spells for the day, you can prepare this spell once, using a spell slot 1 level higher than the spell’s actual level. This is cast as a divine spell.With Owen's response, you only need a 1st level divine spell (cast from a 2nd level slot) to count as your 2nd level divine spell.
Cool beans!
Yeah, it's neat.
By the way, I took a look at this from a "can I cheese it up?" perspective and its not particularly overpowering (with currently available classes, at least). Even with a 1st level divine spell counting as second level, the earliest you can do this is Wizard 5/(Divine class) 1. Which is the same character level as Wizard 3/Cleric 3. You just swap a spell level of cleric for a spell level of wizard. As far as I can tell there's no way to make it totally Single Attribute Dependent, either. Wizards and Arcanists use Int to set DCs and number of spells. Oracles and Clerics/Druids/Shamans use Charisma and Wisdom, respectively. There is an inquisitor archetype that uses Int for casting but MT really shines for two full 9-level casters.
(The real cheese during the "SLAs qualify for Prestige Classes" era was Oracle 1/Sorcerer 1/MT X. Totally made of Charisma with a ridiculous number of spells.)
The thing is, what do you want it to do? In your previous thread you presented a rather unfocused character which wouldn't be able to make much use of the mystic theurge and which seemed to be trying to melee a bit. Rather than looking at a class breakdown and asking if it 'works' how about thinking about some in-play goals and how it would match against them?The problem I am running into is a bit of conflicting goals
"What the group needs" which is some front line fighters...
To my character's goal: trying to understand magic (and everything else)in all of its forms.
To my player goal of trying some new class features I have not got to play with yet
go full cleric and stab people, being a bad touch cleric on the side(curse people).
I want to thank everyone, especially Avr for making me articulate my goals.
As a player I really want to try out Evangilist, so decided that I will concentrate on that.
Lvl 1-6 Arcanist
7-16 Evangilist
17-20 Not sure but leaning towards Loremaster
I realize that it is sub optimal, but that is what I want to do.
Thank you all again. Any advice on how best to make it work is still appreciated
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I want to thank everyone, especially Avr for making me articulate my goals.
As a player I really want to try out Evangilist, so decided that I will concentrate on that.
Lvl 1-6 Arcanist
7-16 Evangilist
17-20 Not sure but leaning towards LoremasterI realize that it is sub optimal, but that is what I want to do.
Thank you all again. Any advice on how best to make it work is still appreciated
Unless you have a real reason for not doing so I would go 1-5 Arcanist, 6-15 Evangelist, 16-20 not sure (even if 16 is another level of Arcanist.)
Everything would be exactly the same as your way for levels 7-15 except you would be getting your Evangelist powers a level earlier. That's pretty major when you are playing through a campaign.
I want to thank everyone, especially Avr for making me articulate my goals.
As a player I really want to try out Evangilist, so decided that I will concentrate on that.
Lvl 1-6 Arcanist
7-16 Evangilist
17-20 Not sure but leaning towards LoremasterI realize that it is sub optimal, but that is what I want to do.
Thank you all again. Any advice on how best to make it work is still appreciated
Unless you have a real reason for not doing so I would go 1-5 Arcanist, 6-15 Evangelist, 16-20 not sure (even if 16 is another level of Arcanist.)
Everything would be exactly the same as your way for levels 7-15 except you would be getting your Evangelist powers a level earlier. That's pretty major when you are playing through a campaign.
I admit to being on the fence on this one, what I get for level 6 is +1 to all saving throws, +1 BAB, access to lvl 3 spells, 1 pool point.
You might also look at diverse obedience from divine anthology. It won't get you boons quicker, but will allow you to pick boons from any of the 3 options (evangelist, exalted or sentinel).
Don't have that book yet, looking for the text on that one
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You might also look at diverse obedience from divine anthology. It won't get you boons quicker, but will allow you to pick boons from any of the 3 options (evangelist, exalted or sentinel).Don't have that book yet, looking for the text on that oneActually, after re-reading the feat, it may not be of any use to you:
Additionally, whenever you would gain a boon as a result
of your Deif ic Obedience feat (and not through a prestige
class), you can choose among the options available for
evangelist, exalted, or sentinel boons. Once you make
the selection, it is permanent, but you can choose from a
different category each time you gain a new boon as you
increase your Hit Dice.
Even so, it is tempting for me to not take the perestige class. Maybe going fighter/eldrick knight
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Have you taken a look at the divine obedience boons? Getting them early is a fair part of the point of the evangelist PrC, so you'd want to pick a deity which has some decent evangelist boons if you go into that PrC. Archives of Nethys lists them under the deities if you don't have the relevant books.
OTOH, Arcanist 6 / Fighter 1 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Whatever 3 is a perfectly reasonable way to combine fighting and magic. It does start off slow. Ideally you'd want the Blade Adept archetype which since you've started the game already might require retraining.