I'm an old time gamer. I know how we would have handled these in the way back with the old pink and blue books. Yet I'm also aware expectations have shifted in the intervening years.
1) Player has selected his alignment, personality, gear, outfit, appearance, and/or build. I have no problem with this. I actually like the character he has fabricated. The player's choice as long as it fits at least reasonably well with the campaign and the rest of the group.
However: the way he looks/acts makes him almost always the logical choice for enemies to attack. I think he is getting tired of always being nearly dead. I don't want him to feel like I am picking on him, punishing him for his role play, or pushing to play different. But like I said, for the personalities and/or intelligence levels of the opponents they should attack him.
In the old days we would have just let him have the headaches from being the focus of attacks since he made those character choices. What to do?!?
2) Group has 2 basic choices (with various modifications) on how to proceed, either X or Y. The module assumes they will choose X. Information in the module has told them Y will result in their death, essentially no chance to succeed. I as GM know this to be true. They just are not high enough level to have a realistic chance at Y. They would basically be skipping most of a whole module in the series (along with 2 levels of experience and magic items) when they encounter those opponents. However, I have listened to their discussions and reasoning. With the info the have received (and missed), their personalities, and (mis-)deductions on what is going on; they think it makes more sense to do Y. To them, X seems more like certain death.
In the old days we would have just let them do Y and die in the attempt. But that seems kinda railroad-ish. I could also re-write things so Y has a chance to succeed. I don't believe in the attitude 'players should only encounter level appropriate challenges' entitlement. But I also don't really want to run 3 sessions that I know will lead to a guaranteed TPK.
What would you do as GM or want done as a player?
3) How do you handle published encounters with just plain stupid tactics? For example:
Creature says to spread out attacks among all opponents to give the special attack a chance to soften them up. However, the save DC is so low that anyone likely to fail the save is likely to be killed by the attack anyway. Spreading out the attacks makes this supposedly intelligent creature accomplish almost nothing. However, if I focus all those attacks on single opponent, I am very likely to outright kill a PC each round. It will almost certainly get a surprise attack, then they will kill it in a 2-3 rounds. If run as written, this significant encounter will be a few click stick charges and nothing more. If I let it focus attacks, it will probably be at least 2 dead PC's maybe more. It is supposed to be a significant encounter, but it definitely isn't a final boss.
I'm considering upping the save DC by about 4 then following the listed tactics. Then I suppose I should make the CR at least 1 higher.
What would you do here? What do you do with other times the listed tactics are stupid.
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1) I'm not sure what battle tactic this player is using that makes him the target of all enemies. Surely the unintelligent ones would be more interested in the ones that look like softer targets?
I'm interested in hearing more about what this character is doing.
2) Sometimes players can't figure the idea out. If you value their survival over their freedom, perhaps let them know out of character that going to do Y is an extremely dangerous prospect, and you would greatly prefer if they did X. If they continue to persist, then you did your best to warn them, and should follow the course of action planned out for option Y.
3) Sometimes enemies are given stupid battle tactics for just this reason. If the enemy acted intelligently, the party wouldn't have a chance. Boosting the DC and CR seems a reasonable alternative.
I'm an old time gamer. I know how we would have handled these in the way back with the old pink and blue books. Yet I'm also aware expectations have shifted in the intervening years.
1)
However: the way he looks/acts makes him almost always the logical choice for enemies to attack.2) Group has 2 basic choices (with various modifications) on how to proceed, either X or Y. The module assumes they will choose X. Information in the module has told them Y will result in their death, essentially no chance to succeed.
3) How do you handle published encounters with just plain stupid tactics?
1. You're the DM. Just don't.
2. Have then roll a bare Int check, DC10, then tell them they remember choice Y will result in certain death. or if any are divine casters, have it come to them while playing.
3. They sometimes do that to nerf down a killer encounter.
1/ Why does the enemy think that this PC is their main target ?? If he survived all the previous fights, they should know that he is a tough guy and use an indirect tactic , y dealing with the rest of the party first, no ?
2/If your scenario is to give a choice between : a) do the adventure or b) everyone dies, then in fact you are not giving your players a choice. The 1st lesson learnt by any DM is "No module survives the contact to a PC group, always be prepared for the unexpected ..."
3/Saethori is right : some encounters are done so that if you play the monsters with a smart tactic, the PCs don't stand a chance to win, or can only get a pyrrhic victory that ruins any chance to finish the adventure.
1) I'm not sure what battle tactic this player is using that makes him the target of all enemies. Surely the unintelligent ones would be more interested in the ones that look like softer targets?
I'm interested in hearing more about what this character is doing. ...
It is not the battle tactics. Hmm... Trying to think how to say this without giving things away in case they read this. Ok, I will describe a situation that is fairly similar.
Most of the enemy are religiously devoted to wiping out arcane spell casters. The PC is obviously and publicly a magus. The only known arcane caster in the group.Some encounters specifically state something like "the bandit leader will challenge the most obvious threat while his allies hold off the others." The PC is the only big tough looking character with armor and heavy weapons.
Or "the archers will all fire their 2 poisoned arrows at the one that seems to be in charge or is giving orders." The PC is always the one shouting out what to do.
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2) Sometimes players can't figure the idea out. If you value their survival over their freedom, perhaps let them know out of character that going to do Y is an extremely dangerous prospect, and you would greatly prefer if they did X. If they continue to persist, then you did your best to warn them, and should follow the course of action planned out for option Y. ...
I don't like breaking the wall like that, but maybe in this case I should anyway.
...
3) Sometimes enemies are given stupid battle tactics for just this reason. If the enemy acted intelligently, the party wouldn't have a chance. Boosting the DC and CR seems a reasonable alternative.
I don't know about you, but I hate it when the only reason I win is that someone let me win. Doesn't feel like victory, just condescension. If the writer thinks an opponent is too powerful, he should dang well just use a different opponent. Maybe that is just me.
I will probably either boost the save DC to make the listed tactic reasonable or sub in a different creature....
2/If your scenario is to give a choice between : a) do the adventure or b) everyone dies, then in fact you are not giving your players a choice.
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They have lots of choices. Some good choices have got them to this point faster than expected by the writer. Some poor choices have let them miss some info and allies that they could have had.
...
The 1st lesson learnt by any DM is "No module survives the contact to a PC group, always be prepared for the unexpected ..."
...
That's kinda the whole point of this thread. I'm trying to figure out how best to adapt to what the party has done.
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1. Talk with the player about why this is occurring. Heck, have him (or anyone else in the party) make a Knowledge check as appropriate to the creature to realize this. If he keeps the look and behavior, well, he knows the cost of that.
Actually, even if he doesn't change his behavior, this is useful information, and the sort of thing the character should be able to figure out more easily than the player. If you know it's true you can plan for it, which can result in very good things tactically (invisible friends positioned to take AoO at people coming for him being the first obvious option that leaps to mind).
2. I wouldn't re-write any encounters or outright say OOC that it's a bad idea. But I would suggest ways they could get a better idea of which option to pick, possibly OOC. For example 'There are spells to see whether something is a good idea, maybe you guys should try one of those just to make sure, since this is a pretty big decision.'
I mean, do they have a Cleric? Augury is a 2nd level spell and will warn them of their doom pretty reliably if it'll happen quickly, and Commune can definitely get you a 'this is a bad idea' answer. Hell, throw out a scroll of augury or commune to give them the hint. Or, as another option, give them the opportunity to find the missed information that says this is a bad choice.
3. I'd need more information, but PCs seldom die outright in my experience, and while them going down makes encounters harder, it doesn't really make them much more resource-intensive on the whole.
Still, how intelligent are these foes? And how much of you knowing this is a bad strategy is the fact that you know the PCs stats?
I mean, if their Save DC is, say, 20 most things will fail that pretty reliably, so spreading out makes sense if they're underestimating the PCs. How overt is it that the PCs are super badass?
...
Still, how intelligent are these foes? And how much of you knowing this is a bad strategy is the fact that you know the PCs stats?I mean, if their Save DC is, say, 20 most things will fail that pretty reliably, so spreading out makes sense if they're underestimating the PCs. How overt is it that the PCs are super badass?
Creature's Int=21 Wis=15
Save DC is only 13, for 2-4 points str drain at 1 per rnd4+ attacks that each do 18-20 points damage
I'm reading the whole thread with interest, although I only have something to say on pt 2. I'm running Jade Regent, you see, which calls for taking the party across the tundra in winter. I can imagine a lot of intelligent players wanting to come up with a "better" plan! You could have a wizened NPC in a bar tell the PCs about having successfully maneuvered through route X in their youth, just to reassure them that it's survivable.
If that doesn't work, I'm with the people voting for voices from the gods or, if necessary, from the GM. As player, I get really invested in my character, and I'd hate to think that I'd made what looked like a reasonable choice only to find out that a TPK was inevitable.
I don't read comic-books, but I've come to love superhero games, and I've picked up on some of the concepts. Worst come to worst, as GM, I'd put in an explicit dream scene, then play out the TPK. Then their PCs wake up, still back wherever, making their choice!
Actually, on pt 1: If it were the case of a magus getting the focus for being an arcane caster...
My husband is playing a magus in my game, and is the party's only front-line fighter. (I know, I know.) So I posed your question to him. He said that then a magus in that circ would have to learn to use his magic defensively as well as offensively. As an example, he could use Blur or Mirror Image to convince some of the foes to target another party member. Of course, your PC might not be a caster at all, since you produced the magus example as a parallel. In that case, they might have to get a Cloak of Displacement (minor or major).
The point is, faced with a creature they cannot target effectively and several they can, intelligent foes might well opt for the ones they can see clearly.
As long as you're not running some official game like PFS, then you're under no obligation to entirely adhere to the pre-published material. If you don't like the foe, change it. Either the abilities, the stats, or the whole creature.
1a) Create an in-game encounter that would give that character an excuse to behave differently. For example, you've mentioned that their intelligent enemies Should attack that one player first. In their next encounter, have a survivor, spy, or messenger announce (within player earshot) advise to their comrades on taking that particular character out first, and to ignore the rest. Or even just leave a message on their corpse. If the character is headstrong or reckless, but their teammates are wise, they might change up tactics to set up traps or position themselves differently in ambushes. If the targeted character is clever, a disguise could work. Without knowing the situation, it's hard to advise a specific strategy. A Positive reinforcement approach can also work; Rewarding with renown, the satisfying dying words of an enemy, or a surrendering opponent are some possibilities. Or simply do nothing at all; If the players are repeating their strategy, perhaps they're content doing so and enjoying the rough experience that goes with their roleplaying.
Perhaps, since you're asking, then the enemies are fairly inflexible. If that's the case, maybe your only option is to have a fairly intelligent minion interpret what happened by the scene of carnage that players leave behind.
2) Throw in a red herring that is more likely to catch your players' attention and have them reconsider, if you really dislike a more immediate intervention. Even something as stupidly simple as a "strange smell" coming from the next room, or the feeling that "somebody is watching you", is enough to send players into a fit of paranoia and attempt to scry/divine what's ahead. This is especially if it contradicts the information they have. For example, perhaps they discover an Infernal message scribbled in blood, which is suspicious if they were expecting an Abyssal-speaking Demon. If the players are more the type to charge straight into battle anyways, there's little you can do except have something charge right back. Temporarily separating the group is also an easy way to make players second-guess their choices, if they're usually in 'Blind-following-the-blind' mode.
3) Run the encounter as it is written, give players the satisfaction of an encounter they're well prepared for, even if it's the module's fault. Modify a later encounter, possibly with a similar situation twisted to counter their last strategy. As with #1, I find it more interesting if some intelligent enemy makes note of the encounter during or afterwards. For example, if a medusa failed to turn a single character into stone, perhaps some following bounty hunter can make note of the characters' access to either magic or great fortitude.
If -None- of all three recommendations work, consider prematurely ending and somehow sending the characters to a whole new module.
Lots of good suggestions in here.
#1: The character should be able to figure out why he's being targeted even if the player doesn't. We (the players) aren't seeing the world as vividly as our characters are. This is why the game has mechanics for skill checks like knowledge, perception, etc. Inspiration can come to the character. It's up to them to decide what to do with it. That being said, sometimes an innocent character choice causes these artificial resonances in the campaign. If the player can't easily modify their character concept to make themselves less of a target, and it's causing an issue in the group, then you as the GM have to keep the game fun for everyone even if it means altering the published tactics of the enemy.
#2: As with #1, you want the game to be fun. I have had our GM stop us in the middle of the game and say "Can I give you some advice? Run." We ran. There's nothing wrong with outright telling the PC's Y is going to TPK them. If you don't like it, the above suggestions to use a dream is good. Or have one of the servants of your cleric's deity speak with them during the morning spell dump, or whatever. Or bring in some foreboding omens that make it clear that Y is not the right choice.
#3. NPC and monster tactics are sometimes dumbed down to keep tough monsters from TPK'ing parties. It is actually a nice way of letting the players face off against something cool with a higher CR than they could normally muster. Also, sometimes NPC's have bad tactics for valid reasons (they lack good information, they are used to "winning" and are overconfident, and so on).
I have been GMing for a very long time, I started with Advanced D and D.
I know what you are saying about the logic of the situation and you are almost certainly right. But I still would not have all the worst attacks directed at one PC most of the time.
Whatever the scenario says or logic may dictate, you don't want to pound one PC continually. They will start to feel persecuted and likely drop out.
Telling them that that they are making a target of themselves by obviously being an arcane spellcaster seems reasonable.
If there is some reason one PC is a target in a fight or two fine. But don't do it nearly all the time.
#1: The character should be able to figure out why he's being targeted even if the player doesn't. We (the players) aren't seeing the world as vividly as our characters are. This is why the game has mechanics for skill checks like knowledge, perception, etc. Inspiration can come to the character. It's up to them to decide what to do with it. ...
I'm not sure why this never occured to me. I will definitely do this. Give the PC an increasingly easy DC check to figure out why they are targeting him. We'll see what happens after that.
For #2, I don't know the situation - is there any way they can back out after making the choice, or that you can enable? Understandable not nerfing the whole path of option Y for them to make it survivable. But bumping into Doomy McDoom and seeing one of the PCs get KOd in one effortless hit, with an opportunity to grab their buddy and run away, that still gives you either an alternative to just warning them, or a second chance if you warn them and they don't realize how serious you're being.
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Well,
1) You could simply point this out to him and see if he changes. You could also vary the enemies more; I infer from your description that this is a custom campaign?
2) Drop some hints towards the most intelligent character that they need an escape plan (e.g. a scroll of dimdoor, or potions of invis). Let them try Y and escape when it fails, then suggest them to go to X instead. There is a vast difference between "they cannot beat this" and "certain death".
3) That depends entirely on context. Some enemies are just dumb and are meant to have stupid tactics. If it's a home campaign and the monster isn't seriously overpowered compared to the PCs, you can adapt his tactics to the party.
Most of the enemy are religiously devoted to wiping out arcane spell casters. The PC is obviously and publicly a magus.
How is somebody "obviously"a magus? I mean Rincewind has the word "Wizzard" written on his pointy hat, but Maguses can wear armor, use swords, etc.
Not too many common soldiers have a lot of ranks in Spellcraft.
Creature's Int=21 Wis=15...
Still, how intelligent are these foes? And how much of you knowing this is a bad strategy is the fact that you know the PCs stats?I mean, if their Save DC is, say, 20 most things will fail that pretty reliably, so spreading out makes sense if they're underestimating the PCs. How overt is it that the PCs are super badass?
All their foes have a Int of 21?????
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All their foes have a Int of 21?????Creature's Int=21 Wis=15...
Still, how intelligent are these foes? And how much of you knowing this is a bad strategy is the fact that you know the PCs stats?I mean, if their Save DC is, say, 20 most things will fail that pretty reliably, so spreading out makes sense if they're underestimating the PCs. How overt is it that the PCs are super badass?
That particular bit is referring to a specific encounter. Apparently with multiple instances of one Bestiary monster. So in that encounter? Yep.
Though what in the heck has Int 21 and DC 13 Saves? I'm super curious.
How is somebody "obviously"a magus? I mean Rincewind has the word "Wizzard" written on his pointy hat, but Maguses can wear armor, use swords, etc.Once you're high enough level, enemies get to make Knowledge (Local) checks on you. This one actually makes sense.
I was trying to make similar example without giving away everything in the campaign.
The PC is 'something' that is visibly obvious that a large powerful group hates.
All their foes have a Int of 21?????Creature's Int=21 Wis=15...
Still, how intelligent are these foes? And how much of you knowing this is a bad strategy is the fact that you know the PCs stats?I mean, if their Save DC is, say, 20 most things will fail that pretty reliably, so spreading out makes sense if they're underestimating the PCs. How overt is it that the PCs are super badass?
That particular bit is referring to a specific encounter. Apparently with multiple instances of one Bestiary monster. So in that encounter? Yep.
Though what in the heck has Int 21 and DC 13 Saves? I'm super curious.
Thay refers to question 3 at the top. There is single encounter, with a single custom monster, in this published module. A super intelligent creature that I can think of almost no instance when its printed tactics make sense.
I was trying to make similar example without giving away everything in the campaign.
The PC is 'something' that is visibly obvious that a large powerful group hates.
I'm still hoping you drop a Cloak of Displacement into the next loot haul...
1) Player has selected his alignment, personality, gear, outfit, appearance, and/or build. I have no problem with this. I actually like the character he has fabricated. The player's choice as long as it fits at least reasonably well with the campaign and the rest of the group.
However: the way he looks/acts makes him almost always the logical choice for enemies to attack. I think he is getting tired of always being nearly dead. I don't want him to feel like I am picking on him, punishing him for his role play, or pushing to play different. But like I said, for the personalities and/or intelligence levels of the opponents they should attack him.
In the old days we would have just let him have the headaches from being the focus of attacks since he made those character choices. What to do?!?
This is a significant tactical advantage for the party. That character is a useful distraction against the enemy. I remember one campaign I ran when the foes would typically attack the gaudy paladin in the party, the obvious leader, and bounce off his armor, when they could have attacked the unarmored fellow who was a wizard and actual leader of the party. The party should improve the defenses of the targetted character and take advantage of the enemy's predictability.
I'm reading the whole thread with interest, although I only have something to say on pt 2. I'm running Jade Regent, you see, which calls for taking the party across the tundra in winter. I can imagine a lot of intelligent players wanting to come up with a "better" plan! You could have a wizened NPC in a bar tell the PCs about having successfully maneuvered through route X in their youth, just to reassure them that it's survivable.
I ran Jade Regent myself. They could always wait until summer, but they will cross not just the tundra, but also the ice cap, so it will be freezing cold no matter the time of year. However, the point you made became a major motivation in the second module.
For further details, I recorded the campaign at Amaya of Westcrown.
I'm reading the whole thread with interest, although I only have something to say on pt 2. I'm running Jade Regent, you see, which calls for taking the party across the tundra in winter.I ran Jade Regent myself. They could always wait until summer, but they will cross not just the tundra, but also the ice cap, so it will be freezing cold no matter the time of year. However, the point you made became a major motivation in the second module.
Night of Frozen Shadows:In Night of Frozen Shadows the Frozen Shadow ninjas are supposed to kidnapped Ameiko Kaijitsu to give the party a strong motivation to raid their stronghold Ravenscraeg. My party was too savvy--one party member was a ninja who kept critizing the Frozen Shadows as bumbling amateurs--and the kidnapping failed. Instead, they raided Ravenscraeg solely to rescue Ulf Gormundr and kill Kimandatsu. I had played up Ulf's reputation as the one man who could get them across the ice cap, guaranteed.For further details, I recorded the campaign at Amaya of Westcrown.
Thank you so much!
How is somebody "obviously"a magus? I mean Rincewind has the word "Wizzard" written on his pointy hat, but Maguses can wear armor, use swords, etc.Once you're high enough level, enemies get to make Knowledge (Local) checks on you. This one actually makes sense.I was trying to make similar example without giving away everything in the campaign.
The PC is 'something' that is visibly obvious that a large powerful group hates.
Well, I appreciate that, but your being coy here doesnt help us help you. If you cant answer our questions directly, why did you ask for our advice?
Well, I appreciate that, but your being coy here doesnt help us help you. If you cant answer our questions directly, why did you ask for our advice?How is somebody "obviously"a magus? I mean Rincewind has the word "Wizzard" written on his pointy hat, but Maguses can wear armor, use swords, etc.Once you're high enough level, enemies get to make Knowledge (Local) checks on you. This one actually makes sense.I was trying to make similar example without giving away everything in the campaign.
The PC is 'something' that is visibly obvious that a large powerful group hates.
Well I actually did get a lot of good advice. But since I have decided to give the PC a check to figure it out, I don't need to keep it secret.
The PC is a paladin of Sarenrae with her holy symbol emblazoned on his breastplate and shield. And he tells everyone that he is a paladin of Sarenrae. Much of what they have been fighting has been agents of an opposed deity (they aren't sure which one yet).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Creature's Int=21 Wis=15All their foes have a Int of 21?????That particular bit is referring to a specific encounter. Apparently with multiple instances of one Bestiary monster. So in that encounter? Yep.
Though what in the heck has Int 21 and DC 13 Saves? I'm super curious.
Something that casts based on Wisdom.
Well I actually did get a lot of good advice. But since I have decided to give the PC a check to figure it out, I don't need to keep it secret.
The PC is a paladin of Sarenrae with her holy symbol emblazoned on his breastplate and shield. And he tells everyone that he is a paladin of Sarenrae. Much of what they have been fighting has been agents of an opposed deity (they aren't sure which one yet).
You mean this group of enemies have not yelled "Kill the Sarenrae worshiper" or something similar? Sounds unlikely. Unless they are ambush attacking all the time and the fights only last one round, I am sure someone said such.
While the PC might not notice it the first time or two, when it happens nearly every fight, he should realize why he is targeted. What he chooses to do about it, however, depends on his style. As a paladin, he probably won't change anything, but he may start using strategies that require the enemy to target him and ignore the others, allowing them better shots.
/cevah
What deity in their right mind opposes Sarenrae? She's the goddess of being nice to people, even the bad guys. Going after a Paladin, however...
...{evil} deity ...right mind ...
Heh, funny. You're a funny guy.
...{evil} deity ...right mind ...Heh, funny. You're a funny guy.
Instead of killing me last, can you just not kill me at all?