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They should be ashamed for quoting the VC's snarky words by email in a public forum? Grow up. If you say something snarky by email, you should be prepared to have it forwarded on to other people.
I'm having trouble finding where the VC said anything snarky at all. In fact, I don't see any actual email quotes from the VC. The only email quote I see is from the RVC. Completely different person.
And the quote was not snarky. Curt, but not snarky.
Secondly, I'm not sure what you mean by "grow up?"
Do you mean, "The world is a mean place and people react out of anger and act meanly towards one another, especially authority figures, and if you can't handle it, you need to grow up?"
Are you trying to say that I need to either get more jaded and cynical or hardened that this sort of action doesn't impact me on an emotional and visceral level? Sorry, I don't think that's good for anyone to have a ton of cynical, jaded, and hardened folk interacting in a hobby to ensure fun happens for people.
And to be clear, I'm not particularly emotionally or viscerally affected by the OP. Being disgusted, ashamed, and disappointed can be a professional opinion without emotional ties. So my "toughness" should not be questioned simply because I disagree with the method of complaint.
Publicly shaming and posting email correspondence is never ok. Should one be prepared for correspondence to be publicized in certain circumstances? Possibly. But it doesn't change the fact that doing so is underhanded. Its reaching for the lowest hanging fruit instead of taking the high road and doing your best to handle the situation diplomatically.
Prime example of why Intimidate is not always useful in encounters in Pathfinder.
Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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Guys, I stand by my original post in here. The public arguments in this thread will do absolutely no good for either the charity, the players, or any of the other parties involved.
Let's not take sides, post, or make further comments since we do not have full information.
Let's allow this group to arbitrate this through proper channels with Tonya on Tuesday.
Please? I'm crossing my fingers for a happy resolution once all sides are able to communicate with each other in something other than a public forum.
Respectfully yours,
Hilary Moon Murphy
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Nothing will be accomplished here. Well, I suppose that isn't entirely true. A lot of bad blood will be raised and unfortunate, and more importantly, avoidable drama will be started.
Sadly, this appears to be the OPs standard style of communication. The response he received, at least as he stated, certainly is something to be discussed. But not in public like this.
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So,
We had a thread where a person went to PAC, and his wife played non PFS, had a bad time and everyone fell over themselves to apologize publicly instead of using PMs, but here we have a convention that wants to run Pathfinder, earn money for a charity and are for the most part legitimately pissed because it seems the ball was dropped on every level, and everyone is like. "Oh, Stop crying about this, and keep it to PM only."
God I love this community.
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How aren't they?
In this thread, we have a convention organizer complaining about the support they are not receiving from their RVC.
In that thread, we have a player who had a bad experience with a convention table and the organizers coordinating it.
In one case, the offended party knows who to go to for redress and is in a volunteer position. In the other, the offended party has no idea who to talk to and is not even the one making the post.
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I don't know if the OP is mischaracterizing the situation with his VOs perhaps even stretching the truth.
I also don't know if he's being 100% accurate. I don't see any reason to think the allegation that a RVC needs to be called to task is not true. When I see protestations that such allegations should have been handled privately (especially when made by other VOs), it's hard to not see an unspoken statement of "That can't be the truth of the matter" or "he's One Of Us and I refuse to believe that's what happened!"
I'm sure that there'll be resolution thanks to the OP having made the post. It might not work out in his favor with respect to getting to play 8-00 at the charity event, but I also expect that if the VOs in question actually have been overdue for an attitude adjustment it will now finally happen.
So I don't see any problem at all with the OP having made the thread. The issue will be worked out and those of us chiming in to support or condemn that decision to make the thread made are what threaten to turn this thread ugly.
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HMM is wise... nothing good comes of this thread.
Limited information, fake accounts to say stuff by folks unwilling to stand behind their words, the only person actually involved only pops in and says, "I'm just going to say my piece but leave forever before you can ask any questions." The ONLY good post I've seen is the person who said, "yeah, hey... some of this was my fault, sorry." (And I think he's part of the "establishment" that is getting some of you down...)
I get enough of this type of propaganda tactic on the news, I don't need it in my Paizo.
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I am going to be GMing and playing in pathfinder games in this upcoming small charity convention.
I don't know about any of the details about what went on behind the scene to put together this convention.
I am not overly worried if games are official or not. I am looking forward to this small charity convention. It will be nice to see friends, and nice to meet other gamers.
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I've been looking at going to conventions next year. I've also been looking at PFS, since I plan on going to conventions.
I would never, ever, contribute to a charity who acts like the OP does. It's inflammatory, shaming, and otherwise acting, in my view, like the worst sort of bigots who try to shout others down. This is a complete, utter turn-off due to someone being rude.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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If they've run afoul of this new rule which has yet to actually be expressed publicly and officially where the whole community can be made aware of it and comment on it then they have a right to not only be confused but be righteously angry.
These scenarios may be run at conventions if there are 6 or more tables playing the RPG scenario simultaneously and in contact with each other. To make sure areas are not over-saturated, RVC approval must be received. To run the ACG component, an event must have at least 2 tables with 2 players each:
#8-00 The Cosmic Captive (Levels 1-11)
Source: OPC Log—20 Rova 4716
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HMM is wise... nothing good comes of this thread.
I dunno, I just found out there are charity boons and the like and now I'm trying to work out how I can get that up and running to support decent and upright organisations in my community.
I agree the rest is a bit of a trainwreck though.
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Organized Play Coordinator
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Since this issue was brought to our public forums, I'll be addressing it here.
The original post notes that Extra Life 3 is a small convention, and based on the Warhorn page currently has 30 tables scheduled, with 10 tables firing, and 17 GMs scheduled. The guidelines given to our volunteers (which includes Regional Venture-Coordinators, Venture-Captains, and Venture-Lieutenants) and posted on the Paizo blog on September 18, 2016 indicate that conventions must be able to run at least 6 tables of #8-00: The Cosmic Captive to qualify to have it at the convention. Reviewing the Warhorn information, The Cosmic Captive is scheduled for Saturday afternoon with 11 players and 4 GMs, which equates to two less than the required 6 tables. Because the event did not meet the 6 table requirement, it was denied permission to run #8-00: The Cosmic Captive. This is a guideline issued by myself to our campaign volunteers and wider Organized Play audience, which RVC Del Collins upheld. A request has been forwarded on to make those guidelines more visible on paizo.com as soon as possible.
Separately, I've received correspondence and requests for convention support for Extra Life 3. While the convention does not qualify under our guidelines for Specials for running The Cosmic Captive, it does qualify for our Charity Boons, which we allot to events benefitting various charities as is appropriate. Paizo has also separately supported the Extra Life charity through other events, as well as outside of the realm of Organized Play by our Community Team, and including proceeds from our Humble Bundle initiative earlier this year. Soon, we are working with Extra Life for a big event in Spokane, where I will be in attendance.
Issues like the ones put forth in the original post should, in the future, be sent to our team via email so that we can investigate appropriately and completely. When private messages are posted publicly, they can lack important context that could be crucial to resolving the issue at hand, be damaging to all parties involved, and exacerbate the issue further. Unfortunately, this was posted publicly over a long weekend where I was unavailable to address these issues. The reasoning behind denying the request to run this Special at Extra Life 3 would have been provided had this been brought forward through our general process for escalation (bringing it to my attention via email in this case).
Further, calling out individuals on our forums in this way can be considered "Harassment" or "Baiting" under our Community Guidelines. We do not endorse or encourage publicly reprimanding any member of our community, as it can be corrosive and damaging to the environment and goals that both myself and our Community Team work towards. However, we will listen, and again encourage folks to come forward with issues through our escalation process (you can find this outlined in our Community Standards Policy). If you do need to bring something to light, it is more helpful to provide as much detail available through those channels, rather than posting "I've heard"/"Folks say"/"People complain", which is not actionable on our side and can be seen as a personal affront or slander to a group or individual.
We are unlocking this thread, in recognition that our community can discuss issues rationally and without personal attacks. We are keeping an eye on it and should commentary violate our Community Standards, we will reevaluate our position.
As always, my email is open to comments/concerns. You can reach me at tonya.woldridge@paizo.com.
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It is too bad it was not phrased so eloquently in the initial rejection email or all this could have been avoided in the first place. However thank you for the clarification.
The OP was also not very eloquent.
See? This is why you should never dump Charisma! ;)
Seriously, though. It's far too easy to be terse, rude, etc via e-communications, and that can be amplified by the reader. Posting publicly while mad is never a good idea (one that I have still to learn 100%, admittedly). We can all try to do better.
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Jon Brazer Enterprises
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Thank you for your thorough and transparent response to this issue, as well as for your support via the charity boons.
I want to apologize again for my aggressive tone in responding to the original post—I should not have responded without having all of the facts, as well as my own self-composure, in order first.
While I still have concerns about the missteps which led to this altercation, I'm confident all parties involved can learn from this experience and use that knowledge to make next year's Extra Life event in the Triangle area even better.
It's my sincere hope that this event's attendance will continue to grow in coming years as a result of the stellar lineup of volunteer GMs this year, and hopefully in the future our local Extra Life event will have more than enough demand to satisfy the requirements for running PFS specials.
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October 13, 2016
I know a lot of folks have been waiting for my response and I want to thank everyone for their support and restraint regarding this matter. I think Tonya did a good job outlining the reasons why the event did not qualify to run the special, but let me summarize:
- The request was past the deadline for support.
- The request did not include the proper paperwork.
- The request stated in it, that the event did NOT have enough tables to qualify. (Which is why I felt no explanation was necessary - you already KNEW you didn't qualify for the special)
- The Warhorn site confirmed that the event did not have the tables to qualify for the special.
This past weekend my family and friends and the local community had hurricane Matthew bearing down on us. People are fighting for their lives and homes in some areas. Thousands of people today are still without power, thousands have lost everything they own and in some areas there are still evacuation and rescue efforts underway. I'm sorry I couldn't reply sooner as I was busy helping the Housing Solutions Task Force get its infrastructure up and running to begin relief efforts here in SC and didn't have time respond.
I would ask such compassionate and charitable people such as yourselves and your like-minded friends to consider reaching out with your time, energy and money and see if there is any assistance or relief you can provide to those facing the aftermath of Matthew.
While I think Extra Life is a wonderful charity and have personally donated to it several times, the rules must still apply for your event as they do for all others, including my own. There are many different events that deserve support. However, no event deserves special treatment just for supporting a good cause or because of who is involved with it. This is a great cause, and I encourage anyone reading this to donate to this charity and not let the behavior of this particular group of supporters detract from a good organization such as Extra Life. You can make your donations to Extra Life directly here.
Over my time with the campaign I have run almost 800 tables, coordinated or helped coordinate dozens of conventions, game days, charity events, library and school events. I have spent hundreds of hours giving presentations to a wide variety of groups about this hobby, including to the board of the Children's Miracle Network. I have traveled thousands of miles and logged over 5000 hours supporting this campaign over 8 years. I was a venture captain before there were actual venture captains. A few years ago they awarded me campaign service coin 722 alongside Bob and Todd. This cemented my enthusiasm for my continued support of this great company and the campaign it has provided to this wonderful hobby.
Each year, I and my company (SCARAB) give time and money to a variety of charitable events and through the support of Paizo and other great gaming companies have given away and arranged to be given away tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of products in support of those same efforts. It is my opinion that this community has not appropriately recognized Paizo for its generosity over the years. Companies with their generosity are genuinely hard to find.
If you ever believe my judgment to be in error, I am always available to discuss any decision I make. All my VO should have my cell phone number and email. In addition hundreds of players and GMs across the globe have that information and frequently call me for questions, answers, guidance and advice. I will gladly answer any questions, even during hurricanes.
I would humbly remind people of the old adage "Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes".
I am sorry for the distress this has caused. I would advise anyone with a problem to address your issues directly and privately with the source before posting your grievances in a public forum.
Sincerely,
DC
RVC of the SE
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I've gotta ask, why was this even opened back up?
I'm sure so that the RVC could make his statement, as his was the only viewpoint that hadn't yet been memorialized. Especially important because he had made an earlier post which was quickly deleted (right before the thread was locked) which had been rather...strident. (It wasn't *terrible*, but I did gasp a couple of times reading it. This one was much better.)
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I've gotta ask, why was this even opened back up?I'm sure so that the RVC could make his statement, as his was the only viewpoint that hadn't yet been memorialized. Especially important because he had made an earlier post which was quickly deleted (right before the thread was locked) which had been rather...strident. (It wasn't *terrible*, but I did gasp a couple of times reading it. This one was much better.)
This is the same post as his previous one. Despite the tone of his response, I will acknowledge that he deserved to have his say. Now that he's had his say, can we re-lock this thread and let it die?
Edit: My bad, his response has been slightly toned down to be less attack-y.
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This entire thread should never have even been started. As we now know, the OP didn't include all of the pertinent information, and in the process, specifically and personally attacked Del Collins. I'm not for escalating the situation, particularly in light of the fact that Tonya gave a satisfactory explanation, but Del was entitled, I think, to respond, to la out the rest of the pertinent facts which were deliberately omitted by the OP, and to let everyone know the entirety of the situation.
That having been done, I think it is now time to close this thread for good.
