I am starting a campaign with a level 5 shield champion and 10k gold to spend. I am thinking of doing a mithral heavy throwing shield with a master worked reinforcing boss an spikes. However, I was wondering if maybe spending 2k extra gold for adamantine is a better option and just give up my Necklace of natural armor. Or, should I just get two shields? This is my first shield character, so any advice I can get would be much appreciated.
I wouldn't go mithral. The value in a mithral weapon is that it inflicts damage as if it were Alchemal Silver. Why not just make an Alchemal Silver Shield? The -1 Damage? That's only for Piercing and Slashing Silver Weapons. A Throwing Shield is a Blunt Weapon. My advice is go Alchemal Silver unless you want a Sundering build.
I like the Bashing Enchantment. I like Quickdraw, Throwing Shields. I like the Quickdraw Feat. I like Blinkback Belts. Take a look at those.
I use the light quickdraw throwing shield (one each of different special materials) with the Quick Draw feat with my Shield Champion. Free action to unstrap (throwing shield), free action to draw it from stowed position (Quick Draw feat), free action to strap/don it (quickdraw shield + Quick Draw feat), free action to stow it (quickdraw shield + Quick Draw feat).
I list more reasons why the Shield Champion has action economy issues here and why I feel the need for the light quickdraw throwing shield.
The action economy is useful if the Shield Champion ever needs to throw the dang shield. You get it back at the END of your turn (whenever you declare your turn to be over) so no free action available to equip the shield again, so would need to equip it at the beginning of your NEXT turn, and it being a free action would be incredibly useful. Unequipping it and/or stowing it to have two free hands is also useful for climbing that needs two hands or other activities where don't want any armor check penalties like tumbling/jumping/swimming.
The Bashing enchant for a Shield champion is questionable choice, due to the disagreements on how it works with Close Weapon mastery. Talk to your GM before going that route.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: I wouldn't go mithral. The value in a mithral weapon is that it inflicts damage as if it were Alchemal Silver. Why not just make an Alchemal Silver Shield? The -1 Damage? That's only for Piercing and Slashing Silver Weapons. A Throwing Shield is a Blunt Weapon. My advice is go Alchemal Silver unless you want a Sundering build.
I like the Bashing Enchantment. I like Quickdraw, Throwing Shields. I like the Quickdraw Feat. I like Blinkback Belts. Take a look at those.
I think he is going Mithral to get rid of armor check penalty, Also if you add shields spikes to the shield the shield now has -1 to damage if you go Alchemal Silver. Mithral and Darkwood are the best materials shields out of. Also no rules confusion when making them out of these also. According the the current rules there is debate if you can even make one out of adamantine shield, as There is no shield cost listed under that material, and this is due to it having no defense ability, and legacy issue, unlike mithrial and darkwood.
but as BlackBlood Troll all ways say a shield is a weapon, and it is, So I would rule you can make them out of adamantine so you pay the weapon cost. Which is I think 3000gp. That is really pricey to only go through one type of dr. It is actually better to, just put that money toward magic enhancement defensively, 25K you have a +5 weapon and defense. Then you get to 11 or Ranger level 6 take shield master feat. Then the defense enhancement counts as weapon enhancement, And DR is non issue.
You can have adamantium shield spikes. But I would just work my way to a +4shield and once you get shield master at 10/11 you are set for life
Woodoodoo wrote: You can have adamantium shield spikes. But I would just work my way to a +4shield and once you get shield master at 10/11 you are set for life Per RAW, the material of the Shield Spikes don't change anything. So, you're paying extra money just to pay extra money.
KainPen wrote: I think he is going Mithral to get rid of armor check penalty Meh, it's a Shield, not a suit of armor. When he needs to make some Skill Check and avoid an Armor Penalty, he can just remove it. It can be removed as a Move Action. If it's a Throwing Shield, and that's the OP's plan, removing it is a Free Action. If he gets the Blinkback Belt and the Quickdraw Throwing Shield like I suggested, he can throw his shield at some badguy. The Shield instantly returns to his belt while he climbs up the side of the ship with both hands free. Then when he gets back on top, re-draw the Shield as a Free Action. 1000gp seems like a lot to pay for removing the Armor Check Penalty of a Shield.
KainPen wrote: Also if you add shields spikes to the shield the shield now has -1 to damage Shield Spikes don't add anything to the Throwing Damage. The base Damage of a Spiked, Throwing Shield is 1d6 Blunt: Silver is no problem. Also, I am recommending he get the Bashing Enchantment, which does not stack with Shield Spikes. I recommend against Shield Spikes.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Per RAW, the material of the Shield Spikes don't change anything. So, you're paying extra money just to pay extra money. What do you mean? Adamantine Shields don't grant the wielder DR, sure. No kind of Shield Spikes--adamantine nor any other--affect the damage of a Throwing Shield. But I would be astounded to see you show me that a Spiked, Adamantine Shield would not bypass the DR of Devils and most Golems, ignore the first 20 points of an object's Hardness when used to Sunder, nor enjoy a Hardness of 20 and 1/3 more HP than normal.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Per RAW, the material of the Shield Spikes don't change anything. So, you're paying extra money just to pay extra money. What do you mean? Adamantine Shields don't grant the wielder DR, sure. No kind of Shield Spikes--adamantine nor any other--affect the damage of a Throwing Shield. But I would be astounded to see you show me that a Spiked, Adamantine Shield would not bypass the DR of Devils and most Golems, ignore the first 20 points of an object's Hardness when used to Sunder, nor enjoy a Hardness of 20 and 1/3 more HP than normal.
A Spiked Shield? Yes, a Spiked Shield would get those benefits.
Shield Spikes would not.
I think the 1000gp for mithril is worth 3 to 6 skill points. which the armor check penalty represents.
silver works for when you actually throwing the shield but when you have to bash with it and have spiked Shield on it you do -1 damage.
best if you are not worried about the Armor check penalty or weight maybe being a problem then just got strait + on the shield either as weapon or armor, Armor being the best option because with a few feats you get +5 weapon and armor at such a cheep cost when using it for bashing. you would have to buy +5 weapon on it own for throwing. It end up being the same cost as any other sword and broad character for +5 defensive shield and +5 weapon.
As I stated it is debatable if you can even have an Adamantine shield. due to there being no cost listing. You have to make the an assumption it is the weapon cost. which really is not worth it. not even for the hardness or sundering properties. No one want to damage or destroy the loot.
Most items don't have a hardness or hp that is a problem that a normal sunder attempt would not work on it. if you are willing to destroy loot. The only things that you have to sunder and worry about other adamantine gear or armor. which you don't want to destroy because of the value.
Also darksol pointed out buy Adamantine shield spikes are not going to work as Adamantine weapon quality, All shield spiked do is treat the weapon as 1 size category larger, and allow the weapon to do piercing damage. being made of Adamantine have no effect on the item, it does not make the shield and Adamantine spiked shield.
KainPen wrote: I think the 1000gp for mithril is worth 3 to 6 skill points. which the armor check penalty represents. For starters, a mithral shield does not offer the effect of 3 skill points. The Armor Penalty for a Light Shield, which I advise the OP to use, is only -1. The Armor Check Penalty for a Heavy Shield, which the OP is proposing to use, is only -2.
A much cheaper way to remove the Armor Check Penalty is to just take off your shield when you have to use a Skill! Then the penalty is 0! Saves a thousand gold pieces.
KainPen wrote: not worried about the weight Not really. A heavy, Steel Shield only weighs 15 pounds. Making it mithral takes away only half that. 1000gp is a lot to pay to save 7.5 pounds.
KainPen wrote: silver works for when you actually throwing the shield but when you have to bash with it and have spiked Shield on it you do -1 damage. It is fair to say that Alchemal Silver makes inferior Shield Spikes. If the OP insists on Shield Spikes, then Alchemal Silver is not the way to go. My advice is that the OP not bother with Shield Spikes and get the Bashing Enchantment. With the Bashing Enchantment, no kind of Shield Spikes have any effect.
KainPen wrote: As I stated it is debatable if you can even have an Adamantine shield. due to there being no cost listing. Sure there is a cost listing:
Adamantine wrote: Weapon | +3,000 gp Shields are weapons.
KainPen wrote: willing to destroy loot. It takes all kinds. Some people want Sundering builds.
KainPen wrote: Also darksol pointed out buy Adamantine shield spikes are not going to work as Adamantine Not so:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: A Spiked Shield? Yes, a Spiked Shield would get those benefits.
You can't make Shield Spikes out of Adamantine, attach them to a shield, and then say it's an Adamantine Spiked Shield (even if it technically fits by literal definition).
The reason as to why that is, is because you cannot actually make Adamantine Shield Spikes. They aren't actual weapons, so you can't use them in the cost of weapons. You can't make them as Armor or Missile pieces either, because they cannot be used as projectiles, plus they aren't listed as being a Light, Medium, or Heavy armor; and you can't make them as a general item because the price for general items made out of Adamantine aren't listed.
So if you try to make any sort of Adamantine Shield Spikes at all, it becomes a houserule, because by the rules, Adamantine Shield Spikes are impossible to create. Saying a houserule is an acceptable rules answer is ridiculous and does nothing to help your case.
I mean, you can just simply make the Shield itself out of Adamantine for 3,000 gold, as well as Quickdraw or Throwing (at the time of creation), as well as attach shield spikes as normal. It still remains an Adamantine Spiked Shield. But making a normal shield, and then attaching an item that's impossible to make (outside of houseruling, which isn't an acceptable rules answer) to that shield, in an attempt to basically apply special material templates to your weaponry, doesn't work, nor is that the intended interpretation.
You could use any other material that can actually be made with other items, and it still wouldn't work that way. Why? Because the material is modifying the item being made, Shield Spikes. Shield Spikes are neither weapons, nor armor, nor ammunition, and you're trying to apply the benefits of weapons, armor, and ammunition being made out of those materials, to an item that's none of those things. Those benefits apply only to those types of items, which Shield Spikes are not.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: You can't make Shield Spikes out of Adamantine, attach them to a shield, and then say it's an Adamantine Spiked Shield (even if it technically fits by literal definition).
The reason as to why that is, is because you cannot actually make Adamantine Shield Spikes. They aren't actual weapons, so you can't use them in the cost of weapons. You can't make them as Armor or Missile pieces either, because they cannot be used as projectiles, plus they aren't listed as being a Light, Medium, or Heavy armor; and you can't make them as a general item because the price for general items made out of Adamantine aren't listed.
So if you try to make any sort of Adamantine Shield Spikes at all, it becomes a houserule, because by the rules, Adamantine Shield Spikes are impossible to create. Saying a houserule is an acceptable rules answer is ridiculous and does nothing to help your case.
I mean, you can just simply make the Shield itself out of Adamantine for 3,000 gold, as well as Quickdraw or Throwing (at the time of creation), as well as attach shield spikes as normal. It still remains an Adamantine Spiked Shield. But making a normal shield, and then attaching an item that's impossible to make (outside of houseruling, which isn't an acceptable rules answer) to that shield, in an attempt to basically apply special material templates to your weaponry, doesn't work, nor is that the intended interpretation.
You could use any other material that can actually be made with other items, and it still wouldn't work that way. Why? Because the material is modifying the item being made, Shield Spikes. Shield Spikes are neither weapons, nor armor, nor ammunition, and you're trying to apply the benefits of weapons, armor, and ammunition being made out of those materials, to an item that's none of those things. Those benefits apply only to those types of items, which Shield Spikes are not.
That's a very rulesy, word-mincing argument coming from you to me, Darksol.
So your advice is that if Players want an Adamantine, Spiked Shield, we should go about it by buying them as whole pieces, and not by attempting to add adamantine spikes later?
I don't feel strongly opposed to this advice at this point.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: KainPen wrote: I think the 1000gp for mithril is worth 3 to 6 skill points. which the armor check penalty represents. For starters, a mithral shield does not offer the effect of 3 skill points. The Armor Penalty for a Light Shield, which I advise the OP to use, is only -1. The Armor Check Penalty for a Heavy Shield, which the OP is proposing to use, is only -2.
A much cheaper way to remove the Armor Check Penalty is to just take off your shield when you have to use a Skill! Then the penalty is 0! Saves a thousand gold pieces.
KainPen wrote: not worried about the weight Not really. A heavy, Steel Shield only weighs 15 pounds. Making it mithral takes away only half that. 1000gp is a lot to pay to save 7.5 pounds.
KainPen wrote: silver works for when you actually throwing the shield but when you have to bash with it and have spiked Shield on it you do -1 damage. It is fair to say that Alchemal Silver makes inferior Shield Spikes. If the OP insists on Shield Spikes, then Alchemal Silver is not the way to go. My advice is that the OP not bother with Shield Spikes and get the Bashing Enchantment. With the Bashing Enchantment, no kind of Shield Spikes have any effect.
KainPen wrote: As I stated it is debatable if you can even have an Adamantine shield. due to there being no cost listing. Sure there is a cost listing:
Adamantine wrote: Weapon | +3,000 gp Shields are weapons.
KainPen wrote: willing to destroy loot. It takes all kinds. Some people want Sundering builds.
KainPen wrote: Also darksol pointed out buy Adamantine shield spikes are not going to work as Adamantine Not so:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: A Spiked Shield? Yes, a Spiked Shield would get those benefits. It does effect more then 3 skill points, Climb, Stealth, acrobatics,fly, swim. are all skills that suffer from armor check penalty thus for each -1 that is 1 less skill point for each of those skills. no it is not actual skill points but it is a Representative of them. I said 3 to 6 because I was only thinking of acrobatic,climb swim. You may not be able to just put she shield away, to avoid the penalty, if you are trying to tumble past an enemy or jump to one or climb up to 1. you are trying to stealth from cover. In combat situation you are not going to want to put up your shield to perform the skill check, or you are fighting enemies in water. So losing 1-7+ AC in these situations Also not to mention you have to waste a move action to remove the shield then another one to re-use it after the skill is used. This can have big effect on combat. So yes 1000 gp saves you from not even having to worry wasting you move actions and keeps you ac up with out having to worry about the loss of skill to 5 different skills.
the cost of a +1 to any one skill on a magic item is 100x the + squared. +1 to 5 skills cost you 2,500 you already beat the cost magic item that preforms the same function. Then you have reduced weight, counts as silver, reduce arcane spell failure. All rolled in to one item.
again you are assuming you are supposed to use the weapon cost to make an admaintium shield, no where does it say that is what you use. It would be a fair assumption, but it does not mean it is true. Hence the debate, if you don't believe me that a debate exist search these boards, it come fairly often. While I agree with that is what the price should be there are many other feel it can't be done. It is something that will vary from GM to GM.
What I'm saying is that you can't add Adamantine Spikes, because by the rules, you can't make or find such a thing. Even if there was such a thing, the special material improves only the spikes, which aren't any of the prescribed item types that would receive the benefits it grants.
In other words, making a normal Adamantine Shield for 3,000 gold and then applying spikes to it is, in fact, the only way to get an Adamantine Spiked Shield.
Quote: Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes. I think this is the source of the confusion. Which raises another question. How much does a masterwork shield spike cost? It's not an actual weapon or armor, so there is no formula for calculating its cost and the cost is never listed.
Melkiador wrote: Quote: Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes. I think this is the source of the confusion. Which raises another question. How much does a masterwork shield spike cost? It's not an actual weapon or armor, so there is no formula for calculating its cost and the cost is never listed. UE gives that text, but here's what the CRB text says, via the PRD:
Masterwork Weapons wrote: Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties. Masterwork Armor wrote: The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: UE gives that text, but here's what the CRB text says, via the PRD: I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you are trying to say? You quoted me, but it doesn't seem like you answered or even argued against what I wrote. We have text that masterwork shield spikes confer their masterwork enhancement bonus to attack rolls. But we don't actually have any other rules for masterwork shield spikes. Most importantly, how much do they cost?
Melkiador wrote: Darksol the Painbringer wrote: UE gives that text, but here's what the CRB text says, via the PRD: I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you are trying to say? You quoted me, but it doesn't seem like you answered or even argued against what I wrote. We have text that masterwork shield spikes confer their masterwork enhancement bonus to attack rolls. But we don't actually have any other rules for masterwork shield spikes. Most importantly, how much do they cost? My point was that we also have text, from multiple sources, that state masterwork armor or shields never provide a (enhancement) bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if they are used as weapons.
In short, this gives us an inconsistency within the rules.
Plus, you should review the remainder of the sentence you bolded:
UE text wrote: ...which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes. At no point can you attack with Shield Spikes by themselves as an actual weapon, so that sentence has zero application there. (Armor Spikes still certainly get that benefit, if only because their mechanics are different.)
Bashing with a shield that has shield spikes is an attack made with the spikes, though. Just like if you stapled streamers to your shield, it would be an attack made with the streamers. "With" doesn't necessarily mean "using". "With" just means it's there too.
But more seriously, if two sources conflict, the newer source is considered superior. The newer source would be Ultimate Equipment.
Melkiador wrote: Bashing with a shield that has shield spikes is an attack made with the spikes, though. Just like if you stapled streamers to your shield, it would be an attack made with the streamers. "With" doesn't necessarily mean "using". "With" just means it's there too.
But more seriously, if two sources conflict, the newer source is considered superior. The newer source would be Ultimate Equipment.
It's an attack with a spiked shield, not an attack with the spikes themselves. You're trying to make the spikes into their own weapons, when they're not. They're not in the weapons table, and you certainly can't use them without incurring improvised penalties.
I cited two sources. It only conflicts with the second source, for whatever stupid reason. The first source is printed in UE (and in the Core), in that you can't craft a masterwork armor or shield to apply bonuses to attack rolls.
KainPen wrote: It does effect more then 3 skill points, Climb, Stealth, acrobatics,fly, swim. are all skills that suffer from armor check penalty thus for each -1 that is 1 less skill point for each of those skills. Okay. I see your point. That is fair to say.
Still, rather than get a Mithral Shield, my advice is to just remove your shield when you need to make a Skill Check.
KainPen wrote: In combat situation you are not going to want to put up your shield to perform the skill check, or you are fighting enemies in water. So losing 1-7+ AC in these situations I like having a Shield bonus to my Armor Class.
KainPen wrote: Also not to mention you have to waste a move action to remove the shield then another one to re-use it after the skill is used. This can have big effect on combat. So yes 1000 gp saves you from not even having to worry wasting you move actions and keeps you ac up with out having to worry about the loss of skill to 5 different skills. I have worked out a method so that these may both be done as Free Actions. This my advice.
Recall,
I wrote: I like Quickdraw, Throwing Shields. I like the Quickdraw Feat. Quickdraw Shield wrote: If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action. You lose a point of AC: you can't have a Heavy, Quickdraw Shield. But Heavy or Light, Throwing Shields do the same amount of damage. And if you also get a Blinkback Belt, it will teleport back to you when you throw it.
Blinkback Belt wrote: the weapon teleports back to its strap or sheath immediately after the attack is resolved. Then you re-draw the Shield as a Free Action again!
So, this could theoretically lead to an infinite Free Action Attack loop, but it doesn't really. The Core Rulebook specifies that the GM can dictate how many Free Actions a Player can take.
Core Rulebook, Actions in Combat, Free Actions wrote: However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM. But The PC should be able to get at least one or two free attacks out of it and still be allowed to use his Shield for AC, or maybe use an Attack Action, another one from Rapid Shot, and then another one for Free. Or, since the Throwing Shield is a Tripping Weapon, use the Shield to make Attacks of Opportunity after the PC Trips him. Of course, the infinite Free Action Attack loop can be a tool for the GM: whenever the GM realizes he accidentally threw an encounter at the party that is overpowered, he can just allow the shield champion to make more attacks.
KainPen wrote: again you are assuming you are supposed to use the weapon cost to make an admaintium shield I am assuming nothing. Shields are weapons. The rules really say that.
KainPen wrote: no where does it say that is what you use. The fact that there is no separate entry for adamantine shields just means that the rules do not think that adamantine shields are different from any other adamantine weapon. It does not have to say which one you use: there is only one!
KainPen wrote: It would be a fair assumption, but it does not mean it is true. Again, I am assuming nothing. It would be reasonable to suppose that since they differentiate between Shields and other weapons for some other materials, they would also differentiate for adamantine.
But they don't.
KainPen wrote: Hence the debate, if you don't believe me that a debate exist search these boards, it come fairly often. While I agree with that is what the price should be there are many other feel it can't be done. It is something that will vary from GM to GM. GMs like doing things their own way. I am basing my arguments solely on what the rules say with no regard for whether or not my views are poplular. There isn't anything I might do in my life in or out of game where some hater out there won't find some way to criticize it or try to argue that it is illegal or unethical in some way. I have demonstrated comprehensively that the rules describe Adamantine Shields, and you can have them insofar as you are allowed to play the game according to the rules. I advise you proceed forth confident in what the rules say. You can't let haters live your life for you, because that's not going to stop the haters from hating. A hater's gotta hate.
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