I'm planning on starting up a CG Shield Champion/Mutagenic Mauler for PFS (CG to worship Gorum and get shield-trained trait for shield as weapons proficiency) and necro'ing this thread to see if anyone has any insight if a quickdraw light throwing shield would be the best option for a shield champion hoping to throw his shield in combat? And maybe get people's insights on the equipping/unequpping shield action economy issues.
Some quotes that I'm referencing.
Ready or Drop a Shield: Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or drop a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.
Dropping a carried (but not worn) shield is a free action.
Quickdraw Shield, Light Wooden or Steel: This light shield is specially crafted with a series of straps to allow a character proficient in shields to ready or stow it on his or her back quickly and easily. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw a light or one-handed weapon with one hand and a quickdraw shield with the other in the time it would normally take you to draw one weapon. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action.
Throwing Shield: This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action. Tower shields cannot be throwing shields. Neither a shield's enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply on your attack or damage rolls.
SHIELD CHAMPION
Throw Shield (Ex): At 3rd level, a shield champion can throw a medium or light shield as a normal (non-improvised) thrown weapon with a range increment of 10 feet or the shield's range increment, whichever is greater. The thrown shield deals the same damage as a shield bash, and any damage increases from shield spikes apply to this attack. A shield champion is treated as having the Far Shot feat for the purpose of determining range increment penalties for throwing a shield...
Returning Shield (Ex): At 5th level, a shield champion can throw a shield so it ricochets off her target (and possibly other solid objects) to return to her at the end of her turn...
If a shield champion has additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, these additional attacks can be ricochets off an earlier target...Because ricocheting attacks are treated as separate attacks, effects and modifiers that only apply to one attack roll (such as true strike) only apply to the first attack and not to the others. A shield champion can throw a shield as part of a brawler's flurry.
1) If one has the Quick Draw feat and quickdraw shield, one can "don" the shield as a free action. However, shield champion's level 5 returning shield (ex) ability states that a thrown shield will "return to her at the end of her turn". I can't use a free action after the "end of my turn" to re-don the shield to benefit from shield bonus to AC during enemies' turns right?
2) I assume I'd need a throwing shield to unequip the shield as a free action, or Equipment Trick (shield) to unequip a shield as a swift action (the Adventurer's Armory feat also says unequipping a throwing shield is a free action but I think the throwing shield was updated in Ultimate Combat so that extra Equipment Trick tidbit isn't necessary anymore). Does a shield champion who starts their turn with their shield equipped would need such options in order to benefit from brawler's flurry full-attack thrown shield ricochet attack, or am I missing something in the class write-up to make unequipping a shield and thrown ranged full-attacking easier?
3a) The shield champion's 3rd level ability throw shield (ex) allows her to throw a shield as "a normal (non-improvised) thrown weapon with a range increment of 10 feet or the shield's range increment, whichever is greater." If one is using a throwing shield but without exotic proficiency, does one suffer the -4 nonproficient penalty for the shield champion's attack if benefitting from the throwing shield's 20 feet range increment? This is also assuming I'm using the usual shield bash damage 1d3 or 1d4 instead of the throwing shield's thrown 1d6 damage.
3b) If having a 20 feet range increment of the throwing shield DOES apply the -4 nonproficient penalty, could one keep the throw shield ability's default 10 feet range increment while using the throwing shield to avoid the nonproficient penalty? In this case I'd just be using the throwing shield for its ability to be unequipped as a free action.
Bump? Shield spikes get all the attention and debates, but searching through old topics on quickdraw shields, strapping/donning shields is a rather confusing topic.
Your wall of text is intimidating. Just go through, step by step, a shield champs turn and point out where the rules fail to work as intended.
Obviously you should be able to gain the shield's AC bonus after you catch it at the end of your turn. Point out why that doesn't work and I'm sure people will FAQ this.
Your wall of text is intimidating. Just go through, step by step, a shield champs turn and point out where the rules fail to work as intended.
Obviously you should be able to gain the shield's AC bonus after you catch it at the end of your turn. Point out why that doesn't work and I'm sure people will FAQ this.
Yea sorry about the wall of text, I threw in the PRD references because when folks talked about quickdraw shields and and strapping/unstrapping shields in the past, the point gets lost when the wording gets only remembered instead of quoted.
Returning shield states the shield ricohets back to the shield champion at the end of her turn, so the shield champion shouldn't be able to do a free action to equip the shield again, as her turn ended and can only do free actions on her turn.
Or am I misinterpreting "end of turn" and can still do a free action after it?
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Your wall of text is intimidating. Just go through, step by step, a shield champs turn and point out where the rules fail to work as intended.
Step by step. Sure.
Level 5 Shield Champion with shield already equipped comes along. Runs into group of goblins with shortbows 20 feet in front of him. Shield Champion wins initiative.
Shield Champion has choice of melee or ranged. He's got brawler's flurry and throw/returning shield abilities. Decides on ranged.
Round 2: Shield Champion, with shield already unstrapped from previous round, throws shield at goblins using brawler's flurry (full attack action), attacking two goblins. Shield returns at end of Shield Champion's turn and it remains unstrapped because no move action available.
Repeat until Shield Champion decides to move into melee or goblins are dead. Shield Champion doesn't get a chance to strap shield back on shield bonus to AC until after he decides to stop flurrying.
Repeat until Shield Champion decides to move into melee or goblins are dead. Shield Champion doesn't get a chance to strap shield back on shield bonus to AC until after he decides to stop flurrying.
Repeat until Shield Champion decides to move into melee or goblins are dead. Shield Champion doesn't get a chance to strap shield back on shield bonus to AC until after he decides to stop flurrying.
Repeat until Shield Champion decides to move into melee or goblins are dead. Shield Champion is able to fully use ranged brawler's flurry and benefit from his shield bonus to AC during other characters' turns only when using a Quickdraw Light Throwing Shield in order to free action unstrap & don shield.
"Free Action
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
You need this text too. The question is: can the shield champion don his shield as a free action while catching it? The language of the ability doesn't give us any precedent for or against this. I don't find any reason to rule it exclusively as you have (or in the opposite direction, for that matter).
Are there any other 'at end of turn' rules in pathfinder which might help set a precedent?
To Blakmane: I do admit I typically go the more conservative route when it comes to unclear rules, especially when I play in PFS or as a GM in general.
However for a free action to work, how the Shield Champion is currently written it needs a quickdraw light shield. The words/phrases "free action", "don", "equip", or "strap" doesn't appear any in the Shield Champion archetype section, so there isn't any reason reason to assume that, by default, a shield champion could don a shield as free action while catching it, as that would just be a houserule. The free action option only comes up from very specific shield from the APG (quickdraw shield) and Adventurer's Armory/Ultimate Combat (throwing shield).
Searching "end of her turn" and "end of his turn" in PRD and d20pfsrd.com I really only find buff/ability durations ending at end of player's turn or player having to make a saving throw at end of his turn. Though with aquatic terrain, if one's in moving water, they get moved downstream at end of her turn.
To Blakmane: I do admit I typically go the more conservative route when it comes to unclear rules, especially when I play in PFS or as a GM in general.
However for a free action to work, how the Shield Champion is currently written it needs a quickdraw light shield. The words/phrases "free action", "don", "equip", or "strap" doesn't appear any in the Shield Champion archetype section, so there isn't any reason reason to assume that, by default, a shield champion could don a shield as free action while catching it, as that would just be a houserule. The free action option only comes up from very specific shield from the APG (quickdraw shield) and Adventurer's Armory/Ultimate Combat (throwing shield).
I was specifically referring to the quickdraw shield in this case. Clearly you can't don a normal shield.
Thinking about it a bit more: can you talk as you catch the shield? I think that would be reasonable, which would suggest donning a quickdraw shield as you catch it is just as reasonable. I think you would need restrictive language to prevent you from doing so.
To Blakmane: I do admit I typically go the more conservative route when it comes to unclear rules, especially when I play in PFS or as a GM in general.
However for a free action to work, how the Shield Champion is currently written it needs a quickdraw light shield. The words/phrases "free action", "don", "equip", or "strap" doesn't appear any in the Shield Champion archetype section, so there isn't any reason reason to assume that, by default, a shield champion could don a shield as free action while catching it, as that would just be a houserule. The free action option only comes up from very specific shield from the APG (quickdraw shield) and Adventurer's Armory/Ultimate Combat (throwing shield).
I was specifically referring to the quickdraw shield in this case. Clearly you can't don a normal shield.
Thinking about it a bit more: can you talk as you catch the shield? I think that would be reasonable, which would suggest donning a quickdraw shield as you catch it is just as reasonable. I think you would need restrictive language to prevent you from doing so.
The not donning/strapping a heavy shield or simply a regular Core Rulebook shield as a free action is one of the issues I got with the Shield Champion, as it seems to run counter-intuitively/productively as written, and have to go to very specific sources for special shield modifications just to use the archetype more effectively.
I see speaking as a special case free action.
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
That's the only listed free action that states you're allowed to do outside your own turn. All the others from the Combat chapter (i.e., cease concentration on a spell, drop an item, drop prone) I'd insist as a GM that they'd need to be done independent of other actions and only on their turn; such as to avoid cases of someone dropping prone while being shot at for +4 AC bonus vs ranged attacks, or quick draw a weapon in the middle of an opportunity attack.
I think one needs an ability that has permissive language to allow one to combine free actions with other actions, like with drawing a weapon as a free action while moving.
I created a new thread about a similar question here, but I'll ask this here:
Returning shield says both "If a shield champion has additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, these additional attacks can be ricochets off an earlier target." AND "A shield champion can throw a shield as part of a brawler's flurry."
Does the first part about "additional attacks from a high base attack bonus" mean that you can ONLY get those iterative attacks from your BAB and the part about working with brawler's flurry is just repetitive? (IE: Brawler 5 / Fighter 1 gets two 'Returning shield' attacks and one 'offhand' for something else)
Alternately, does the part about it working with brawler's flurry actually mean that you get all your Two Weapon Fighting attacks as per brawler's flurry AND any extra from BAB (IE: Brawler 5 / Fighter 1 gets two iterative attacks and one TWF attack)
Aren't both those questions sort of asking the same thing?
If a shield champion is level 5, he's got throwing and returning shield and brawler's flurry and BAB of 5. Can flurry for +3/+3. He can use his thrown shield for both those attacks (it'll bounce off first target and hit second, but no consecutive attacks on same right; though bouncing off two or more targets repeatedly ought to work), 1 shield bash and 1 thrown, 1 shield bash and 1 unarmed/other brawler weapon, or 1 thrown shield and one unarmed/whatever else qualifying weapon.
If shield champion 6, or your example of shield champion 5/fighter 1, the BAB is +6/+1. So flurry is +4/+4/-1, and can be used with any combination of thrown shield, shield bash, or other melee brawler attack.
One thing to remember is that if you throw the shield, it comes back at end of your turn so you can't go throw shield THEN shield bash in the same turn.
It applies to both.
If for whatever reason brawler is full attacking but not flurrying, the returning shield would apply. For example, a brawler 10/fighter 1 (BAB +11/+6/+1) throws his shield at flying targets one and two with his first two attacks (+11/+6), then 5-foot steps up to a demon and power attacks two-handed a cold iron longsword with his 3rd attack (+1).
That same brawler 10/fighter 1 could also throw his shield for 5 attacks (+9/+9/+4/+4/-1).
It's just redundant wording so that one doesn't think you'd ONLY get to bounce shield off more than one target when flurrying.