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From another thread:
Half-price for arcane bond.
You still need the Fame for the whole purchase, though.
Relevant information:
"A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). If the bonded object is a wand, it loses its wand abilities when its last charge is consumed, but it is not destroyed and it retains all of its bonded object properties and can be used to craft a new wand. The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type."Making the wand a magic wand follows all the normal rules for item construction except you don't need the feat to perform the crafting.
That means it comes at half-price, as that is the construction cost.
Relevant PFS quote:
Cost is the construction cost, price is the final price which is twice the construction cost."Can an Arcane Bonded Item be upgraded?
A character with the arcane bond class feature may create a bond with any item he owns, either magical or mundane, as long as the item falls within the categories permitted by the arcane bond ability (the cost for bonding with a new item still applies). If a caster later wishes to upgrade an existing bonded item, he may do so for the cost (not price) of the final item as listed in the item's statblock.For items which can be enhanced incrementally (such as weapons or a ring of protection), the caster must meet all prerequisites for the item as outlined in the item crafting rules. For example, a nonmagical bonded dagger can be enchanted to a +1 dagger for 1,000 gp instead of the normal 2,000 gp, but the caster must be at least 5th level (a prerequisite for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). To upgrade the item further to a +2 dagger, the caster must have a caster level of 6 or higher (three times the item's enhancement bonus).
A bonded item that is enhanced must still conform to all the campaign rules for access to and upgrading of magical items. The final and total price of the item (not the cost) is used on the Fame chart to determine whether a caster can apply such an enhancement to a bonded item."
So first, this purchase discount on bonded items is new to me. I missed it, I guess. This correct?
Second, If I have multiple Arcane Bonds from different classes, does the ability stack (as in I get one bonded item that functions for multiple classes), or do I get multiple items? I had a thread on this one a while back in the rules section, but not addressing PFS because I missed the discount. Seems like multiple arcane bonds could potentially allow heavily discounted characters, which may or may not be intended.
Third, If I replace my arcane bond with another item as per the rules of Arcane Bond, what happens to the previous arcane bonded item? Two things, first, the arcane bond itself never clarifies what happens to the previous bonded object when a new bond is applied a new item. I've personally assumed it disappears, but it doesn't say this. And second, if the old bonded object doesn't disappear, and there is a PFS discount for bonded item upgrades, seems like the magical upgrades would remain and result in a method of gaining a pretty massive discount on all magic item purchases (even with the 200gp/level ritual).
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From the PRD, the Core Rulebook, Wizard Class, Arcane Bond:
A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in Feats). If the bonded object is a wand, it loses its wand abilities when its last charge is consumed, but it is not destroyed and it retains all of its bonded object properties and can be used to craft a new wand. The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type.
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A Blade-Adept Arcanist from the ACG gets the class feature 'Blade Bond', and the Bonded Witch Half-Elf racial archetype from the ARG gets the class feature 'Bonded Item' that both reference the Wizard's class feature 'Arcane Bond'. These class features do not share a name with the Wizard's, so they cannot stack with it.
I am unfamiliar with any other classes that have a version of 'Arcane Bond'. Can you point to some of them? If, as in the examples above, the class features have different names, they do not stack, much like Fighters and Weapon Training.
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Aha! Reading your post on getting more spells as a sorcerer, here is the wording from the Arcane Bloodline's Arcane Bond:
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item. Once per day, your bond item allows you to cast any one of our spells known (unlike a wizard's bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook).
So, these two do indeed stack.
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The previously mentioned Sorcerer Bloodline is one.
There are many wizard variants of this.
The Magnus has 2, the Soul Forger and the Skirmir.
There is a Cleric archetype, the Ecclesitheurge.
The Hellknight Signifier prestige class also has an arcane bond.
The Bonded Witch (Half Elf) Witch archetype.
The Bard has two, the Arcane Duelist and the Magician.
The Arcanist has the Blade Adept.
The Skald has the Herald of the Horn.
I think their are others, but I can't find more off-hand.
You are correct, some do list that they stack, but it is not universal.
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Aha! Reading your post on getting more spells as a sorcerer, here is the wording from the Arcane Bloodline's Arcane Bond:
So, these two do indeed stack.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item. Once per day, your bond item allows you to cast any one of our spells known (unlike a wizard's bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook).
And actually, that brings up a 4th question, since eldritch Heritage allows the Sorcerer level regarding arcane bond to be calculated via the character level, Can the effective character level for an arcane bond exceed the total character level of the character in PFS?I'm well aware animal companions and familars aren't allowed to in PFS, unclear regarding arcane bonds. It does matter with some of the archetypes, and in regard to the cost of the ritual to create or replace a bond.
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The previously mentioned Sorcerer Bloodline is one.
There are many wizard variants of this.
The Magnus has 2, the Soul Forger and the Skirmir.
There is a Cleric archetype, the Ecclesitheurge.
The Hellknight Signifier prestige class also has an arcane bond.
The Bonded Witch (Half Elf) Witch archetype.
The Bard has two, the Arcane Duelist and the Magician.
The Arcanist has the Blade Adept.
The Skald has the Herald of the Horn.
I think their are others, but I can't find more off-hand.
You are correct, some do list that they stack, but it is not universal.
I think you missed 2 archetypes, friend.
Bladebound Magus & Battle-Host Occultist.The Black Blade, I think countsand The 1 Implement of the Battle Host is outright stated to be a bonded object.
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Regarding them all stacking, the big issue with that is in regards to a few archetypes and traits which alter the legal options of Arcane Bonds.
For example, the Bonded Witch gains special powers for her bonded item, but it can only be from a select list of the normal arcane bonded options. So, if I have that class, and the Magnus Skirmir archetype, which has a bonded shield, for their arcane bond, I'm now left with two seemingly incompatible archetypes. Do I just lose out on one my class abilities, or is a second bonded object generated? And if a second one is created, how does this interact with classes which stack the existing bonded objects? Can I stack it twice, on two different bonded objects?
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Regarding bonded object types, and I could be missing some, this should be the list:
Weapon, Shield, Amulet, Holy Symbol, Mask, Ring, Wand, Staff, and Wayfinder.
With some archetypes forcing a particular selection of bonded object, or otherwise being entirely incompatible with the alternate selections.
EDIT: add musical instrument to the list.
Stacking
You can only count a level once. If the level is being used for 1 bonded item it cannot be counted again to calculate a different bonded item.
so a wizard X with bonded item and eldritch heritage bonded item gets you effective wizard level X for your bonded item and leaves 0 levels left for any other bonded item.
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Stacking
You can only count a level once. If the level is being used for 1 bonded item it cannot be counted again to calculate a different bonded item.so a wizard X with bonded item and eldritch heritage bonded item gets you effective wizard level X for your bonded item and leaves 0 levels left for any other bonded item.
Really bizarre example and not really on topic. It's already very clear what happens when you mix sorcerer and wizard levels as per the sorcerer arcane bloodline 1st power, as quoted above.
Hmmm..I kinda derailed this one by talking about that forth question.
Issue is things like level 2 Skirnir Magnus and level 2 Bonded witch, with Eldritch Heritage for the sorcerer arcane bond at -2 character level (or rather at sorcerer level 2, so if it stacks with bond of either class, they'd resolve at character level 4).
Bonded Witch's bonded item specifically only applies to rings, weapons, Staves, wands, and amulets. The Skirnir's bonded item MUST be a shield. So they can't stack. Now the Sorcerer's arcane bond via eldritch heritage could potentially stack with either, but technically it only stacks with wizard levels, of which neither class actually is. So either we generate a 3rd bonded object, or it would apply one, or both, of the other classes.
Unless they somehow all stack into a single bonded object, of which I have no rules to suggest this happens. But if that's the case, then either Eldritch Heritage makes it effectively 6th level bonded object, or it does nothing and is wasted feats.
And that's where this arcane bond becomes confusing.
Regarding your point on stacking. If I have two, entirely separate class features which are both affected by a single feat (like eldritch heritage), it should affect both of the class features. This isn't stacking or counting the same class level twice on any one class feature.
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Stacking
You can only count a level once. If the level is being used for 1 bonded item it cannot be counted again to calculate a different bonded item.so a wizard X with bonded item and eldritch heritage bonded item gets you effective wizard level X for your bonded item and leaves 0 levels left for any other bonded item.
Really bizarre example and not really on topic. It's already very clear what happens when you mix sorcerer and wizard levels as per the sorcerer arcane bloodline 1st power, as quoted above.
Hmmm..I kinda derailed this one by talking about that forth question.
Issue is things like level 2 Skirnir Magnus and level 2 Bonded witch, with Eldritch Heritage for the sorcerer arcane bond at -2 character level (or rather at sorcerer level 2, so if it stacks with bond of either class, they'd resolve at character level 4).
Bonded Witch's bonded item specifically only applies to rings, weapons, Staves, wands, and amulets. The Skirnir's bonded item MUST be a shield. So they can't stack. Now the Sorcerer's arcane bond via eldritch heritage could potentially stack with either, but technically it only stacks with wizard levels, of which neither class actually is. So either we generate a 3rd bonded object, or it would apply one, or both, of the other classes.
Unless they somehow all stack into a single bonded object, of which I have no rules to suggest this happens. But if that's the case, then either Eldritch Heritage makes it effectively 6th level bonded object, or it does nothing and is wasted feats.
And that's where this arcane bond becomes confusing.
Regarding your point on stacking. If I have two, entirely separate class features which are both affected by a single feat (like eldritch heritage), it should affect both of the class features. This isn't stacking or counting the same class level twice on any one class feature.
Really, what makes this confusing is the existence of Eldritch heritage. Remove the ability to get an arcane bonded Object on any class and you have no problem. Thankfully an effective wizard level 20 bonded object is exactly the same as an effective wizard level 1 bonded object. the only level based power of a bonded object is not based on your Character level, not class level. So that debate is null. It stacks on both your existing arcane bonded objects and does absolutely nothing.
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And actually, that brings up a 4th question, since eldritch Heritage allows the Sorcerer level regarding arcane bond to be calculated via the character level, Can the effective character level for an arcane bond exceed the total character level of the character in PFS?I'm well aware animal companions and familiars aren't allowed to in PFS, unclear regarding arcane bonds. It does matter with some of the archetypes, and in regard to the cost of the ritual to create or replace a bond.Aha! Reading your post on getting more spells as a sorcerer, here is the wording from the Arcane Bloodline's Arcane Bond:
So, these two do indeed stack.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item. Once per day, your bond item allows you to cast any one of our spells known (unlike a wizard's bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook).
Actually, both familiars and companions can be higher level than their master. Animal companions have an HD limit in comparison to their master's, though, as a special PFS rule.
(Example - Diabolist PRC. Since they have full CL, and their level and highest CL count for their imp AC... 10 levels of Diabolist equal 20 levels of animal companion for their imp. If they had a CL before taking diabolist, then their AC can be over their level.)But, yes, there is no reason that your bonded item level can't be higher... simply because there is no limiting rule. But arcane bond rules typically reference your actual level not the "level of the bond".
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Ugh, hate it when they move a PFS specific rules question out of the PFS forum. Oh well.
@Burko James: I think the reason it isn't FAQed/described better is that in most applications, a 1st level bond isn't any better that a 20th level bond. And in non-PFS, the ability to craft without the feat may be nifty, but it isn't as impressive as the discount on magic items is in PFS. So there isn't much reason to address this outside of PFS.
Regarding when it matters, the PFS discount on magic items is an issue regarding multiple bonded items. Though only because they banned normal crafting and heavily limit gold acquisition.
There are also a few archetypes, like the Bonded Wizard, whose Bonded item actually gains each level. And even there, it is still pretty minor, but it matters and should already be FAQed somewhere (since this is a CRB issue, more or less).
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Ugh, hate it when they move a PFS specific rules question out of the PFS forum. Oh well.
@Burko James: I think the reason it isn't FAQed/described better is that in most applications, a 1st level bond isn't any better that a 20th level bond. And in non-PFS, the ability to craft without the feat may be nifty, but it isn't as impressive as the discount on magic items is in PFS. So there isn't much reason to address this outside of PFS.
Regarding when it matters, the PFS discount on magic items is an issue regarding multiple bonded items. Though only because they banned normal crafting and heavily limit gold acquisition.
There are also a few archetypes, like the Bonded Wizard, whose Bonded item actually gains each level. And even there, it is still pretty minor, but it matters and should already be FAQed somewhere (since this is a CRB issue, more or less).
The rule on bonded items matters in non-PFS games as well. Just because you don't think the effect is significant, it would still apply. This rule is not PFS specific as it is not an extension of the house rules in PFS. PFS actually grants more gold per level then the standards established in the CRB, so I wouldn't say PFS limits gold acquisition "Heavily".
And I still say the only reason this is a problem is there exists a feat chain to give you a sorcerer's bloodline. Rules for how it would have stacked otherwise are pretty well established with the cavalier Mount/AC rules. Its because you can get an arcane bonded object that isn't connected to any class feature that is the real problem, granting you character level -2 levels to stack onto a different arcane bonded object.
It should Be FAQed, but its not a CRB issue. As it stands, the CRB is just fine. In fact even if you add every possible arcane Bond-like feature, There are still no serious problems. They stack where they can, don't stack where they can't. And if you manage to pick up more then 2, you probably are hurting your build in other ways, so the discount probably isn't going to hurt the balance. Its the Eldritch heritage feat from Ultimate magic that really screws things up.
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And I still say the only reason this is a problem is there exists a feat chain to give you a sorcerer's bloodline. Rules for how it would have stacked otherwise are pretty well established with the cavalier Mount/AC rules. Its because you can get an arcane bonded object that isn't connected to any class feature that is the real problem, granting you character level -2 levels to stack onto a different arcane bonded object.It should Be FAQed, but its not a CRB issue. As it stands, the CRB is just fine. In fact even if you add every possible arcane Bond-like feature, There are still no serious problems. They stack where they can, don't stack where they can't. And if you manage to pick up more then 2, you probably are hurting your build in other...
No, actually the main issue is in the CRB where it really should clarify if a character can have multiple arcane bonds or not, and what happens if two classes both have the arcane bond.
You are correct, standalone, the CRB is fine, but the issue of arcane bond is that every entry references that same wizard entry. Fix the wizard entry and they're all fixed. The sorcerer entry already works fine, with or without the feats, as it says it stacks with the wizard. Just fix the wizard.
The other big issue with the CRB is that none of the entries include any arcane bond options that are affected by level. So in a standalone CRB adventure, there is absolutely no reason to even consider if arcane bonds stack or not, other than to establish if a character can acquire both a familiar and a bonded object.
Anyway, the sorcerer isn't my main concern, though it does serve to illustrate the potential disaster very well, so is a great example.
Personally, I want to run a Bonded Wizard, which adds +1 hardness and +1 HP per class level to normal wizard's bonded object. If I have a bonded item from another source, do I stack the levels(?), is a second object obtained(?), or am I unable to acquire a second class with a bonded object(?). It really isn't covered.
Normally, it would be simple to ask the GM, as really, any of the three answers would be fine and easy to implement. The issue is in PFS, where not only does asking the GM pertain to only a single session, but dubbed "illegal" characters can be disallowed.
for PFS an easy solution is always choose the worse/most limiting approach.
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for PFS an easy solution is always choose the worse/most limiting approach.
This is the best answer. I don't think there is any intent that you can have multiple bonded objects.
For instance, take the Arcane Bloodline from the Sorcerer class.
"Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item."
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for PFS an easy solution is always choose the worse/most limiting approach.
Another point where this one is interesting to me.
Of the two real solutions, having them stack into a single object is both good and bad, while having multiple items at levels lower than the character level is also both good and bad. Really depends on the character build, not the solution used.
I think the most limiting approach is that you just can't take classes that have arcane bond if you already have one. Doesn't really seem like a solution so I don't think this one really qualifies.
Intention wise, I think the original intention is that they'd stack into a single object, so I lean towards having them all stack into a single object, and having classes dependent on form be incompatible. Still seems really unclear.
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Bonded Witch's bonded item specifically only applies to rings, weapons, Staves, wands, and amulets. The Skirnir's bonded item MUST be a shield. So they can't stack. Now the Sorcerer's arcane bond via eldritch heritage could potentially stack with either, but technically it only stacks with wizard levels, of which neither class actually is. So either we generate a 3rd bonded object, or it would apply one, or both, of the other classes.
Shields are weapons, so you are set. You can only ever have one bonded item. Just be aware of the prerequisites for upgrading it if you start multiclassing.
The worse solution is that you only have one bonded item and only use one classes levels to determine it.
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Bonded Witch's bonded item specifically only applies to rings, weapons, Staves, wands, and amulets. The Skirnir's bonded item MUST be a shield. So they can't stack. Now the Sorcerer's arcane bond via eldritch heritage could potentially stack with either, but technically it only stacks with wizard levels, of which neither class actually is. So either we generate a 3rd bonded object, or it would apply one, or both, of the other classes.Shields are weapons, so you are set. You can only ever have one bonded item. Just be aware of the prerequisites for upgrading it if you start multiclassing.
So your stance is that the normal wizard is allowed to select a shield as their bonded object? I don't really think the shields qualify as weapons, which is why attacking with them requires a special attack, called a shield bash. Might have this one wrong.
Hmmm...I suppose if shields are weapons, it does work out better for this.
It may not be a solution you like. But it would be sure to not have any GM say that you were too strong and needed to change your character. At worse they'll say that you magically have another bonded item for this scenario.
Another solution is to stay away from unclarified concepts. I've heard of people retiring they overrun guy because of too much variance. I know I've held off making some character until after a ruling finally comes and clarifies things.
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Bonded Witch's bonded item specifically only applies to rings, weapons, Staves, wands, and amulets. The Skirnir's bonded item MUST be a shield. So they can't stack. Now the Sorcerer's arcane bond via eldritch heritage could potentially stack with either, but technically it only stacks with wizard levels, of which neither class actually is. So either we generate a 3rd bonded object, or it would apply one, or both, of the other classes.Shields are weapons, so you are set. You can only ever have one bonded item. Just be aware of the prerequisites for upgrading it if you start multiclassing.So your stance is that the normal wizard is allowed to select a shield as their bonded object? I don't really think the shields qualify as weapons, which is why attacking with them requires a special attack, called a shield bash. Might have this one wrong.
Hmmm...I suppose if shields are weapons, it does work out better for this.
Shields *are* on the weapons table. Most wizards won't want to deal with the arcane spell failure and non-proficiency penalties, though.
Bonded Witch's bonded item specifically only applies to rings, weapons, Staves, wands, and amulets. The Skirnir's bonded item MUST be a shield. So they can't stack. Now the Sorcerer's arcane bond via eldritch heritage could potentially stack with either, but technically it only stacks with wizard levels, of which neither class actually is. So either we generate a 3rd bonded object, or it would apply one, or both, of the other classes.Shields are weapons, so you are set. You can only ever have one bonded item. Just be aware of the prerequisites for upgrading it if you start multiclassing.So your stance is that the normal wizard is allowed to select a shield as their bonded object? I don't really think the shields qualify as weapons, which is why attacking with them requires a special attack, called a shield bash. Might have this one wrong.
Hmmm...I suppose if shields are weapons, it does work out better for this.
Most shields are weapons. If an item is listed on the Weapon tables and belongs to a Fighter Weapon Group then there isn't any plausible way to argue that it isn't a weapon. If you need more rules for support, here are a few.
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Shields *are* on the weapons table. Most wizards won't want to deal with the arcane spell failure and non-proficiency penalties, though.
Ignore the text, follow the table, huh?
And regard Skirnir, they ignore the arcane failure for their bonded item via other class abilities, but they are very dependent on it being a shield and not some other item.
Personally, I want to run a Bonded Wizard, which adds +1 hardness and +1 HP per class level to normal wizard's bonded object. If I have a bonded item from another source, do I stack the levels(?), is a second object obtained(?), or am I unable to acquire a second class with a bonded object(?). It really isn't covered.
You get one object. Only your Bonded Wizard levels count for the purposes of added hardness and hit points.
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It may not be a solution you like. But it would be sure to not have any GM say that you were too strong and needed to change your character. At worse they'll say that you magically have another bonded item for this scenario.
Another solution is to stay away from unclarified concepts. I've heard of people retiring they overrun guy because of too much variance. I know I've held off making some character until after a ruling finally comes and clarifies things.
Hence the point of posting in the rules forum, so I can get a ruling. That is the procedure that Paizo suggests...
I do agree, this is an unclarified concept. I often stay away from those, but I make a point of asking the question on these boards, as the only method of getting a ruling in PFS is to post the question.
In a home game, I wouldn't even ask paizo, asking the GM for the group would be all that I'd need - a simple question and answer.
Regarding strength, I'm not really sure if there is a way I could make the arcane bond unbalanced. Even if I *somehow* were using lots of arcane bonds or had single bond well over my level, there really aren't any archetypes that generate a truly unbalanced set of options. The bottom line is that the stronger effects of a bonded item are resolved by class level, not by level of the object.
The only real balance is in regard to the PFS discount on magic items, and even that is rather unimpressive in terms of game balance, as it still doesn't allow the wizard to do anything that another PC couldn't do, even if they end up with a bit more shiny gear.
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Personally, I want to run a Bonded Wizard, which adds +1 hardness and +1 HP per class level to normal wizard's bonded object. If I have a bonded item from another source, do I stack the levels(?), is a second object obtained(?), or am I unable to acquire a second class with a bonded object(?). It really isn't covered.You get one object. Only your Bonded Wizard levels count for the purposes of added hardness and hit points.
Source/justification of this ruling? Or just a gut reaction?
Source/justification of this ruling? Or just a gut reaction?Personally, I want to run a Bonded Wizard, which adds +1 hardness and +1 HP per class level to normal wizard's bonded object. If I have a bonded item from another source, do I stack the levels(?), is a second object obtained(?), or am I unable to acquire a second class with a bonded object(?). It really isn't covered.You get one object. Only your Bonded Wizard levels count for the purposes of added hardness and hit points.
I think that "the one hit point per class level" in the quoted text is clear enough.
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I think that "the one hit point per class level" in the quoted text is clear enough.Source/justification of this ruling? Or just a gut reaction?Personally, I want to run a Bonded Wizard, which adds +1 hardness and +1 HP per class level to normal wizard's bonded object. If I have a bonded item from another source, do I stack the levels(?), is a second object obtained(?), or am I unable to acquire a second class with a bonded object(?). It really isn't covered.You get one object. Only your Bonded Wizard levels count for the purposes of added hardness and hit points.
Right, sound simple. Then I go to the Sorcerer's arcane bloodline.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.
And since the bonded wizard is a wizard, it is very clear cut that these two stack together. So in this case there isn't any issue.
But then we add a level of Skirnir, and it becomes murky
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, a skirnir gains a shield (except for a tower shield) as an arcane bond item. This is identical to the wizard class ability, but the skirnir may only bond with a shield, not a familiar or other item.
So, now does the arcane bond here stack with the other two, do I not gain the arcane bond here, because I already have one, or do I end up with three?
Definitely seems like at least some are intended to stack class levels. And if they stack class levels, then the Bonded wizard's ability would stack, right?
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In pfs play, if a wizard takes the gunsmithing feat and purchase a master work firearm around say 3rd lvl, can they form an arcane bond with the weapon?
Should be able to.
No character may purchase a firearm unless she possesses the Gunsmithing feat and firearms are never considered Always Available; a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class featureThough them not being considered always available means you can't start with one:
Only items listed as always available (see
page 19) can be selected as the free bonded object granted
to a wizard at 1st level.
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Your official answer is there is no official answer. So, unless you want your ability to be arbitrated differently at every table you sit at don't use that combination.
If you want to use the combination anyway and you want it to work the way you are using it most often... then follow the standard "worse case scenario/least power given" rule of thumb.
If you only want to see RAI, the Arcane Bloodline gives a good baseline to go off of. As it has the most clear arcane bond object stacking rule.
If you want to get a FAQ written for the issue, you need to start a new thread written explicitly to achieve that end.
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I think that "the one hit point per class level" in the quoted text is clear enough.Source/justification of this ruling? Or just a gut reaction?Personally, I want to run a Bonded Wizard, which adds +1 hardness and +1 HP per class level to normal wizard's bonded object. If I have a bonded item from another source, do I stack the levels(?), is a second object obtained(?), or am I unable to acquire a second class with a bonded object(?). It really isn't covered.You get one object. Only your Bonded Wizard levels count for the purposes of added hardness and hit points.Right, sound simple. Then I go to the Sorcerer's arcane bloodline.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.And since the bonded wizard is a wizard, it is very clear cut that these two stack together. So in this case there isn't any issue.
But then we add a level of Skirnir, and it becomes murky
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, a skirnir gains a shield (except for a tower shield) as an arcane bond item. This is identical to the wizard class ability, but the skirnir may only bond with a shield, not a familiar or other item.So, now does the arcane bond here stack with the other two, do I not gain the arcane bond here, because I already have one, or do I end up with three?
Definitely seems like at least some are intended to stack class levels. And if they stack class levels, then the Bonded wizard's ability would stack, right?
Oh, for this, I'd suggest looking at the ruling for Animal Companions and different lists available to different classes. So, if Class A only gives horses and class B allows any animal companion... then they only stack if the companion you have is a horse.
Using that logic... if your bond is a shield both stack. If it isn't, they don't.But that is just a likely ruling, not anything for sure.
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If you want to get a FAQ written for the issue, you need to start a new thread written explicitly to achieve that end.Hmmm...how would you word the question?
I'd suggest looking at other FAQ this threads for hints... but you need to present the problem in a clear and concise way. Basically, you know how all the FAQ questions are one or two sentences but cover the issue? Write it like that.
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I think that "the one hit point per class level" in the quoted text is clear enough.Source/justification of this ruling? Or just a gut reaction?Personally, I want to run a Bonded Wizard, which adds +1 hardness and +1 HP per class level to normal wizard's bonded object. If I have a bonded item from another source, do I stack the levels(?), is a second object obtained(?), or am I unable to acquire a second class with a bonded object(?). It really isn't covered.You get one object. Only your Bonded Wizard levels count for the purposes of added hardness and hit points.Right, sound simple. Then I go to the Sorcerer's arcane bloodline.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.And since the bonded wizard is a wizard, it is very clear cut that these two stack together. So in this case there isn't any issue.
But then we add a level of Skirnir, and it becomes murky
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, a skirnir gains a shield (except for a tower shield) as an arcane bond item. This is identical to the wizard class ability, but the skirnir may only bond with a shield, not a familiar or other item.So, now does the arcane bond here stack with the other two, do I not gain the arcane bond here, because I already have one, or do I end up with three?
Definitely seems like at least some are intended to stack class levels. And if they stack class levels, then the Bonded wizard's ability would stack, right?
As I sadi before, I would go with the Cavalier Mount/AC ruling. When it stacks it can, when it doesn't it doesn't. so in your scenario, say boned wizard 3 (Ring)/Sor 1/skirnir 1 (shield), you now have a level 4 wizard bonded object, because you stacked your sorcerer levels with your wizard levels, and then the Skirnir Bond, which can't stack with your existing levels, is a level 1 bond (not that its level matters). If you picked up a Fourth source you would choose what the item was from your existing bonded objects, and stack them. If you managed to find an option which can not accept any of the existing bonded items, you get a Third item.
None of that is very controversial, id think. The real problem comes when you are a Bonded Wizard X/Skirnir X (lets call it 5/5) and pick up Eldritch heritage, as you pointed out before. because know you have (for instance) an 8th-level bond to stack with SOMETHING. And any stacking you apply gets silly. given you get A bonded item, i say just like if you had leveled a sorcerer you have to chose what item you have from the list of existing bonds, and so you are obviously choosing the bonded wizard's item. and then your effective bonded level is 13, and thats just contrary to existing rules. But Its a problem with eldritch heritage, not the Arcane bond.
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Oh, for this, I'd suggest looking at the ruling for Animal Companions and different lists available to different classes. So, if Class A only gives horses and class B allows any animal companion... then they only stack if the companion you have is a horse.
Using that logic... if your bond is a shield both stack. If it isn't, they don't.But that is just a likely ruling, not anything for sure.
And that seems reasonable on the assumption that these is a limit of arcane bonds. As written, then is currently no such PFS or otherwise pathfinder rule. That's another big piece of the rule.
So if they don't stack, what happens to the class features that don't stack?
I think with animal companions, you'd end up with a second companion, which would be lost in PFS due to their limit on that.
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As I sadi before, I would go with the Cavalier Mount/AC ruling. When it stacks it can, when it doesn't it doesn't. so in your scenario, say boned wizard 3 (Ring)/Sor 1/skirnir 1 (shield), you now have a level 4 wizard bonded object, because you stacked your sorcerer levels with your wizard levels, and then the Skirnir Bond, which can't stack with your existing levels, is a level 1 bond (not that its level matters). If you picked up a Fourth source you would choose what the item was from your existing bonded objects, and stack them. If you managed to find an option which can not accept any of the existing bonded items, you get a Third item.
None of that is very controversial, id think. The real problem comes when you are a Bonded Wizard X/Skirnir X (lets call it 5/5) and pick up Eldritch heritage, as you pointed out before. because know you have (for instance) an 8th-level bond to stack with SOMETHING. And any stacking you apply gets silly. given you get A bonded item, i say just like if you had leveled a sorcerer you have to chose what item you have from the list of existing bonds, and so you are obviously choosing the bonded wizard's item. and then your effective bonded level is 13, and thats just contrary to existing rules. But Its a problem with eldritch heritage, not the Arcane bond.
Totally reasonable interpretation for non-PFS play. Totally agree no real issues can be created by having lots of low level arcane bonds in non-PFS games.
Iffy in PFS, just because you can't normally use the crafting feats, so the discount on the bonded object is a more impressive ability. Though if you think it wouldn't an issue, this interpretation suits me just fine.
PFS really likes to control exactly how much gear our PCs can have.
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I'd suggest looking at other FAQ this threads for hints... but you need to present the problem in a clear and concise way. Basically, you know how all the FAQ questions are one or two sentences but cover the issue? Write it like that.If you want to get a FAQ written for the issue, you need to start a new thread written explicitly to achieve that end.Hmmm...how would you word the question?
Yeah, that's where I'm having difficulty. This problem is circular. I mean, one issue can reasonably be fixed in one manner, but then it goes back to a previous issue when used in another manner. The easiest fix is definitely on that CRB wizard, even though the CRB doesn't really have any issues and the other source material is the problem. Hmmm..how about:
If my multi-class character has multiple arcane bonded items that function as the wizard class feature, how do they function?
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I'd suggest looking at other FAQ this threads for hints... but you need to present the problem in a clear and concise way. Basically, you know how all the FAQ questions are one or two sentences but cover the issue? Write it like that.If you want to get a FAQ written for the issue, you need to start a new thread written explicitly to achieve that end.Hmmm...how would you word the question?Yeah, that's where I'm having difficulty. This problem is circular. I mean, one issue can reasonably be fixed in one manner, but then it goes back to a previous issue when used in another manner. The easiest fix is definitely on that CRB wizard, even though the CRB doesn't really have any issues and the other source material is the problem. Hmmm..how about:
If my multi-class character has multiple arcane bonded items that function as the wizard class feature, how do they function?
You're better off not assuming an answer in the question. That question assumes you have multiple items.
If I have multiple classes that offer an Arcane Bonded item, such as (give at least two good examples, one should be wizard and the other should have a very similar bond), do they stack? Do they still stack if the Arcane Bond abilities are mechanically different, such as (wizard and a class with wildly different bod)?
Oh! And make sure you use URL tags on the class names for easy reading for the design team.
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Oh, for this, I'd suggest looking at the ruling for Animal Companions and different lists available to different classes. So, if Class A only gives horses and class B allows any animal companion... then they only stack if the companion you have is a horse.
Using that logic... if your bond is a shield both stack. If it isn't, they don't.But that is just a likely ruling, not anything for sure.
And that seems reasonable on the assumption that these is a limit of arcane bonds. As written, then is currently no such PFS or otherwise pathfinder rule. That's another big piece of the rule.
So if they don't stack, what happens to the class features that don't stack?
I think with animal companions, you'd end up with a second companion, which would be lost in PFS due to their limit on that.
You can never gain a second companion unless you have an ability which grants an additional companion specifically. Your levels either stack or you use the highest effective druid level that is valid for the animal companion you have. That isn't just a PFS rule, as the FAQ it comes from is part of the general Pathfinder rule set. (Example of exception to the one companion system, Pack Lord druid archetype)
But, PFS does have the "only one combat companion" rule. Though, that does not prevent you from having two animal companions... it is just that only one can participate in combat. The other could still be used as a non-combat mount. Or have an AC and a familiar with only one affecting combat.
You also can never have more than one familiar unless you have an ability which grants it.
Effective levels in an ability which do not stack function the same exact way that a ring of deflection +1 and a ring of deflection +3 do not stack. The +3 ring effectively "hides" the +1 from the first ring.
It is true there is no rule that says you can't have more than one bond... but it is extremely likely that is the intent. But, like I said, you want an official answer you will need to specifically seek an official answer in the manner I described for your best chance to get that answer..
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Let's look at the 'powers' associated with a bonded object;
1: Free masterwork object at 1st level
2: Cast one non-opposition school spell per day without preparation (must be in spellbook and castable by character)
3: Can add magic effects to item as if possessing item creation feats available at wizard (or equivalent) level
4: All damage repaired when spells prepared
Allowing multiple bonded objects would effectively multiply the usefulness of items 2 & 4 by the number of objects. Item 3 would either be similarly multiplied in usefulness or split effective levels amongst the different items.
If a 20th level pure wizard only gets one spell per day from their bonded object then I don't think a 3rd level multi-class character should be able to get three spells per day from three different items. Nor does it make sense that they'd have multiple self-healing magic items.
Thus, it seems clear to me that there should be only one bonded item and all levels providing bonded items should stack... exactly how familiars work as well. The only problem with this is if a character takes levels in two or more classes with mutually exclusive bonded items (e.g. Blade Adept Arcanist and Skirnir Magus). In that case I'd probably make the character choose one or the other and potentially lose any extra abilities tied to the bonded object not chosen (e.g. Blade Adept's 'Sentient Sword' power).
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Let's look at the 'powers' associated with a bonded object;
1: Free masterwork object at 1st level
2: Cast one non-opposition school spell per day without preparation (must be in spellbook and castable by character)
3: Can add magic effects to item as if possessing item creation feats available at wizard (or equivalent) level
4: All damage repaired when spells preparedAllowing multiple bonded objects would effectively multiply the usefulness of items 2 & 4 by the number of objects. Item 3 would either be similarly multiplied in usefulness or split effective levels amongst the different items.
If a 20th level pure wizard only gets one spell per day from their bonded object then I don't think a 3rd level multi-class character should be able to get three spells per day from three different items. Nor does it make sense that they'd have multiple self-healing magic items.
Thus, it seems clear to me that there should be only one bonded item and all levels providing bonded items should stack... exactly how familiars work as well. The only problem with this is if a character takes levels in two or more classes with mutually exclusive bonded items (e.g. Blade Adept Arcanist and Skirnir Magus). In that case I'd probably make the character choose one or the other and potentially lose any extra abilities tied to the bonded object not chosen (e.g. Blade Adept's 'Sentient Sword' power).
Recall that not having the bonded object presents a massively annoying concentration check when casting spells. If I had 5 bonded objects, merely not having a single one would cause the penalty.
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Recall that not having the bonded object presents a massively annoying concentration check when casting spells. If I had 5 bonded objects, merely not having a single one would cause the penalty.
Yes, but as that penalty comes nowhere near outweighing the benefits of the bonded object so too would five times the benefits massively outweigh five times the penalty.
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Recall that not having the bonded object presents a massively annoying concentration check when casting spells. If I had 5 bonded objects, merely not having a single one would cause the penalty.Yes, but as that penalty comes nowhere near outweighing the benefits of the bonded object so too would five times the benefits massively outweigh five times the penalty.
Have you ever lost your bonded item?
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Recall that not having the bonded object presents a massively annoying concentration check when casting spells. If I had 5 bonded objects, merely not having a single one would cause the penalty.Yes, but as that penalty comes nowhere near outweighing the benefits of the bonded object so too would five times the benefits massively outweigh five times the penalty.
also, I believe losing all five would mean 5 concentration checks per spell.