Okay many people in my Pathfinder Society group avoid taking any kind of warrior that can only fight as every players wants to use magic or do cool things.
I do a bit similar but I still optimize a bit. I am trying to build up 4 casters characters balanced. Is there any way to make them better, or would I have to min-max to be better at one thing?
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a dwarf Cleric, strength 16, dex 14, con 14, int 12, wis 16, cha 5
Cleric of Desna for Travel and Luck domains.
Built to be able to fight early levels, but also ready to go into casting. Basically ignoring Channel Energy. It would take too many points to cast more than once per day.
a dwarf Druid, strength 16, dex 14, con 14, int 12, wis 16, cha 5
Allosaurus animal companion.
worse in combat because of equipment limitations but also planning to get dragonhide armor ASAP.
a half-orc Sorcerer, str 12, dex 14, con 14, int 18, wis 12, cha 7
Arcane+Sage Wildblood to use intelligence for casting, sacred tattoos
uses human favored class bonus for extra spells known
a half-orc Arcanist, str 12, dex 14, con 14, int 18, wis 12, cha 7
Twlight Sage Archetype, sacred tattoos
uses human favored class bonuses for extra spells known
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Ive built them up to be somewhat well rounded. I am a bit worried that by not min-maxing theyre just going to flop once spells come into play. The Druid/cleric dont have 18-20 wisdom, Arcanist/Sorcerer dont have 20 intelligence.
It is really going to depend on what you want each character to do. You simply don't need a 20 casting stat if you aren't trying to crank spell dc's. Extra spells are nice, but I would prefer the extra points to go somewhere else.
For the cleric, I'd look into a reach build. They have good action economy that might fit with the style you're going for.
The druid is worse in combat until you get wildshape. My druid knowledge is a little rusty, but that looks ok to me.
If you want a sorcerer to cast with int, I'd consider just playing a wizard (or the arcanist you have built).
The arcanist looks ok to me, just make sure none of your exploits need charisma to function.
I think for the PFS setting, the classes you have selected are strong enough that good system mastery/experience can carry you through without serious optimization. I don't know what your background is, but I've seen people succeed frequently with some seriously mediocre builds.
I mean, I would probably recommend against a sorcerer with 7 Charisma, but I'm a power gamer like that.
EDIT: my bad, did not notice the sage wild blooded portion. That what I get for being snarky!
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I'm pretty sure taking a 5 in any stat falls under min maxing already.
I wouldn't advise starting with stats outside the range of 7 to 17. You can bumb a 17 to an 18 at level 4, and levels 1-3 tend to be nicer on lower DCs and skills. Having a 20 in a stat is a terrible idea. It costs way too much in terms of flexibility.
SO going any further with trade-offs would be a bad idea. Can I make them better?
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I thought about using the Devilbane Priest for Heavy Armor proficiency and dumping dexterty more, but decided the penalties for the losing domains and Full plate were more of a drawback.
DruiD Archetypes seem mostly about trading versatility for brute force in Wild Shape. Don't know if is worth it as I would have to specialize my build like for caster or warrior.
The Twlight Sage, as mentioned above, for the Arcanist is their mainly to give a useful way to regain Arcane points during the day after it original methods were nerfed.
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Traits: reactionary is boring but practical. Focused Mind is good for any caster. For Dwarves Glory of Old and the Steel Soul feat all combine to be a quite significant bonus.
Cleric feels the most in need of help. Low skill points, Channeling being Charisma based, and no bonus feats hurt alot. If I had 4 points per level and/or charisma was wisdom-based then those would help considerably. Being one of the few classes to have Diplomacy as a class skill could help.
I was thinking about Exalted of Society trait to add an extra Channel per day(to counter CHA drop), Trade Subdomain has a power to boost Society skills, and use Favored Class bonus for an extra skill point(now 4 per level).
Those would help counter dumping Charisma, but I wonder if I should instead focus on combat with Class bonus to extra hit points and the Focused Mind trait for bonus DC to casting.
Druid has different problems. Would need to to multiclass for weapons and armor proficiencies unless I stick to vanilla wild shape(at level 5).
All your builds are some what min/max with a 5 CHA, and to be blunt a 16 STR is a waste past level 2 or 3. Clerics and Druids have spells and wild shape to allow them to function better in melee.
I suggest a build more like....
Str 14,Dex 14,Con 12,Int 14,Wis 17,Cha 6
And maybe take the trait (I don't remember the name) that gives one extra channel energy a day.
Those might be some hefty trade offs. Ive seen a player die two weeks in a row for underestimating constitution and strength.
I will explain the (or rather my) rationale behind dumping Charisma. Any class without Charisma as a casting stat would not find it important as it has no combat use use otherwise. For example lowering your charisma bonus by 1 means more intelligence and therefor more skills, countering the loss in a few levels, or just one if you focus on charisma skills. There is little point in making NPCs angry by trying and failing on charisma checks. It puzzles me that Use Magic Device is tied to it.
I just looked up another trait that swaps out charisma for intelligence in use magic device.
Every party can use a Face class but trying it half-heatedly might get you killed outside of combat and probably in combat.
I will explain the (or rather my) rationale behind dumping Charisma. Any class without Charisma as a casting stat would not find it important as it has no combat use use otherwise. For example lowering your charisma bonus by 1 means more intelligence and therefor more skills, countering the loss in a few levels, or just one if you focus on charisma skills. There is little point in making NPCs angry by trying and failing on charisma checks. It puzzles me that Use Magic Device is tied to it.
I would advise investing in diplomacy at the least. Ignoring the "more to the game than combat" argument here, failing to have diplomacy in a party can destroy your chances of succeeding at a number of things. I understand it to be the 2nd most important skill in games with a good amount of NPCs. Traits like Clever Wordplay and Student of Philosophy can help a lot if you prefer low-charisma characters for more points elsewhere. If you have a regular single party it is fine. If you are in a game where party composition changes its nice to at least have a passable modifier.
There of course is the greatest curse of dumping, which is why I don't agree with a lot of others in Point-buy philosophy.
I LIKE races with a bonus to a dump stat. If there's one great build killer, it's carrying capacity. Dumping Strength makes people quite vulnerable to it. Of course, you're obviously covered there.
Regardless, while Charisma is useless (most of the time) ability damage is a @#%$! Let's say for example some sort of poison or disease targets charisma. If it deals say 1d3 or 1d4 charisma damage, you could go unconscious in two hits. Of course spells can do this all instantaneously.
Just a Public Safety Announcement for you guys out there.
I agree with a 17 in stats. Racial normally makes that a 19, which gets boosted to 20 at level four, which still allows you to have good Constitution and Dexterity, and help alleviate dumping.
There can be major benefits to a level dip for Druid or Cleric, assuming it's done very carefully. One level of a Rage class and some Extra Rage can majorly boost combat when not casting spells, one level of Monk or Unchained Monk can dramatically improve melee if it's done right, and even just one level of Fighter for the extra feat and proficiencies can be the difference between a particular concept being functional or not. Losing a single level of spellcasting simply means being at a Sorcerer/Oracle spell level, so it's hardly a terrible blow to casting power.
For example:
Unchained Monk 1/ Cleric: Fate's Favored and Magical Knack traits. Bonus Dodge, builds Crane Style. Solid unarmored AC, unchained flurry wrecks things (and can be used with favored weapon with Crusader's Flurry), plenty of casting power. With Crusader's Flurry you can even build a dex-based Cleric who uses Dervish Dance with scimitar flurry.
Urban Barbarian 1/ Evangelist of Gorum: Fate's Favored and Magical Knack traits. Urban Barbarian grants medium armor proficiency, and means that when the Evangelist gains Rage from Domain or Inquisition, it's a Controlled Rage that works with their performance skill. Wielding a greatsword, they can then benefit from Rage, Furious Weapon, Divine Favor, and Sermonic Performance for a colossal wrecking-ball effect.
Unchained Monk 1/ Druid: Magical Knack trait. Use Wild Shape for Earth Elemental form and take Dragon Style/Ferocity. Keep a longspear while in elemental form. Make reach and AoO attacks with the longspear, and beat targets into a bloody pulp with Dragon Style unarmed flurry and elemental strength. Monk Unarmed can benefit from Druid natural attack buffs, as well as the +1/2 level to unarmed damage from Plant Domain.
I'm pretty sure taking a 5 in any stat falls under min maxing already.If you only do it for mechanical benefits and don't make a thing out of it, roleplay wise. Then yes.
Stormwind fallacy rears its ugly head once again!
No, putting the absolute minimum possible starting stat in one of your stats that you don't care about in order to boost other stats is what that "min" part of "min-max" means.
Trying to turn a vanilla cleric into a skill monkey or face wont work well. They were not designed for it originally and Paizo didnt change that. However there is the Cloistered Cleric Archetype that is much worse at casting and fighting in exchange for greater skills. Channel Energy can be nice, but specializing in it means youre worse at everything else due to mixed stats, feats, even actions.
a Druid has even less use for Charisma. Wild Empathy doesnt make you a master Diplomat or anything, and the best ways to subdue animals are with spells that the Druid just so happens to have.
A vanilla Sorcerer has high charisma because its a primary casting stat, but also has low skill points.
Charisma is something you need to either specialize in or dump it for its little use. The other stats are useful for everyone to different degrees.
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To me "min-maxing" is crippling something useful such as constitution or intelligence to make something else slightly better. For example, a Barbarian/fighter trades off intelligence, wisdom, and charisma to get 20 in strength. I dont drop strength for casters, and intelligence or wisdom for warriors to the point of handicapping them.
Roleplay wise, none of the characters I have made so far are Actor/face characters. They have no-nonsense personalities, somewhat fitting with Dwarves. Functionally they are The ONLY Sane Men role. Depending on who I play with I can either be the Spock of the group or the person trying to keep the Cloudcuckoolanders from triggering every trap or starting fights with Guards.