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The kineticist's telekinetic finesse is worded pretty simply, "You can perform any sort of fine manipulation you choose within close range, including attempting Sleight of Hand and Disable Device checks."
But there exists a similar ability in the arcane trickster's ranged ledgermain, "An arcane trickster can use Disable Device and Sleight of Hand at a range of 30 feet. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and an arcane trickster cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less. She can only use this ability if she has at least 1 rank in the skill being used."
So is the arcane trickster referencing a rule that's not listed elsewhere, or is its limitation specific to its ability and not applicable to other uses of ranged disable device and slight of hand?
It's just describing the Arcane Trickster's ability, not a general rule. General rules aren't hidden away in prestige classes.
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I believe that Close Range is 25' plus 5 for every two levels, as the spells use it. Though the telekinenic ability that is like Mage Hand does increase range if the Extended utility is taken, I don't think it extends to this aspect of it.
The difference between the two abilities is the way the Range is determined, being fixed for the Arcane Trickster and having it tied to Close Range as the spell for the Telekinicist.
Thanks, but what I'm asking is if the DC increase for range from the arcane trickster version is also meant to apply to the kineticist version.
Because, "Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5".
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Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks have a DC depending on the action. The Arcane Trickster has a tougher time doing this at range. The Kineticist does not.
As an example:
Opening a simple lock with appropriate tools is listed as a DC20 Disable Device check. That is the "normal skill check DC" referenced. An Arcane Trickster, if attempting this at range, has to do a DC25 Disable Device check because its ability says to increase the normal DC by 5. A Kineticist has no such wording in their ability and so would only have to make a DC20 check like normal.
I am a bit surprised that no one wanted to argue for the penalty, even if to play devil's advocate, but thank you everyone for your feedback.
Hmm I'd be inclined to argue that there is a penalty, especially when considering the range becomes Long if you take the Extreme Range infusion, resulting in a range of at least 640', based on the earliest level you can pick it up. That's too far to read, let alone see well enough for fine manipulation. Obviously, Sleight of Hand and Disable Device are skills that weren't originally designed to be used at a distance (at least except by the Arcane Trickster, which has penalties to compensate for distance). The Kineticist (especially the Telekineticist (especially the expanded uses of Basic Telekinesis)) needed more space than they had a budget for, and the wording suffers in many spots because of it. It's entirely possible that a penalty should have been considered. I'd definitely house rule something, considering the penalty on perception is +1/10' away the object in question is.
Off topic, but I'm not sure the range infusions would have any effect on the Telekinetic Finesse. We do have this similar quote from Mark, "Since it isn't literally basic telekinesis, telekinetic haul wouldn't apply." But I don't know if this same logic would apply to the range extenders.
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Telekinetic Haul specifically uses Basic Telekinesis, so it would use the same range as it (Close, Medium, or Long) depending on which utilities you have (extended or extreme).
Telekinetic Finesse specifically tells you the range and how it is used, though, as mentioned, it does not give the same penalty as the PrC ability.
Using the blast abilities with the Extended Range or Extreme Range Wild Telents, you would need to use the burn to effect the range needed/wanted for the blast.
Which thread did Mark post on?
You cannot use Infusions on Utility Wild Talents only on kinetic blasts. Basic Telekinesis is a unique situation, because it is specifically called out in that Wild Talent.
Telekinetic Finesse is not usable outside the Range of Close, because nothing is called out in the talent otherwise. Also imposing penalties that are not included in the Talent itself would fall within Houserule territory.
Which thread did Mark post on?
This is where that quote comes from.
And I'll include the majority of the quote for those who don't want to skip to another thread:
...it's like basic telekinesis, but now with more options. And an answer to an unasked question: Since it isn't literally basic telekinesis, telekinetic haul wouldn't apply. This was one of several talents where shaving off enough words to save a line hurt, and I'm glad that the community has been so great about working together with each other on any of those that have been unclear (the opposite of being discouraged, I'm encouraged by how little rancor these kineticist wild talent threads usually have, even among those with different opinions!). I was afraid that the copyfitting might have created even more ambiguities than we've seen so far, but I also wasn't willing to cut any wild talent options (as is, I'm working to, slowly, add more!)
It would have been nice if the talent could have carried the text, "like basic telekinesis, but...". But that still wouldn't have answered the question in this thread of if TkF suffers that DC increase.
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Wonder why he mentioned Telekinetic Haul when it was Finesse that was being discussed. Hmm.
From my reading, haul uses the same ranges as the basic, as it works off of the basic tenants of that ability, just upping the weight that can be lifted.
Finesse, though, has it's own limits and listed range for itself already.
Wonder why he mentioned Telekinetic Haul when it was Finesse that was being discussed. Hmm.
Because he didn't want you using Sleight of Hand to steal a ballista.
Well, you could always take it. But can you take it without anyone noticing?
A huge, overbearing and heavy siege engine... not exactly gonna fit in a belt pouch....
You obviously haven't been going to the correct belt pouch maker.