I already said in the game thread that we aren't bringing weapons
No weapons for Christian or Jasrella
Jas will have her ring but that it is...
Hey Corsario, have you heard from Alexander's player at all? I haven't seen him post yet, and was wondering if you'd talked to him.
Will post more tonight
Ignatius wont be carrying any weapons, and his followers will stay in camp.
The wanderers agreed to meet before entering the dinner if I recall correctly so I am going to spoiler that. So it does not mess things up or slow things down. Also I just want Aolis to get in on this action. ;)
I forgot to roll my sense motive, going to do it here rather then just post for it. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Note, Axhammer would understand how to be diplomatic about getting the 3 of them together to talk, the PLayer Grog however has no earthly idea how to do that
Yeah, Amavin just interpreted the gesture as arrogant and rude, like to drop everything and go see him, like a dog on a leash. She's probably misinterpreting the stance / gesture combined with the herald, but I'm explaining why she's not intending to just walk over anytime soon when she has her own things to do in the dinner.
Also Axnose would know that Amavin most likely would not be the leader of her team.
@Axhammer
Forget our pre dinner gathering?
Also if you want to get them, send a cohert or one of the waiters/servants with an invitation for them to join you. ;)
Yeah, which is exactly why Amavin operates on a "most qualified makes decisions" philosophy. Means that in matters of high combat, she delegates most of the decision making, socially though, would probably be her thing. Just consider her leader only in name
Ignatius is fine with you taking the lead in the social parts, like you said, he knows she is more qualified for it, in other circumstances i guess the decision will fall to a majority of the group.
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Gnome on Half Orc love........THE HORROR!
Actually, since I intend to use it every single time I'd normally write 'the gnome', it's more like gentle mockery. :D
... ah, but will the good Sir Ignatius appear ... ? ;)
I have to admit, this is one of the things I dislike about entirely 'open' and rules-free 'PvP' - one can be the biggest a$$hole and claim tactical victory when the elegant person not only rends you down for soup stock but, having done what they came to do, moves on.
No offense to you, Jovich, but everyone in the area - including Christian - should realize that Christian was as mauled in that exchange as was General Lord Cardigan at Balaclava, and the only reason he's there is because she did what she came to do and thought it best not to say the sorts of things you would actually have to issue challenge for.
@Ouroboros
I don't know how our DM takes such things. But in my personal experience, NPCs are far more dangerous then PCs in these sorts of things considering the fallout.
Christian can claim victory or say it was social tactics to get rid of her all he wants but word and notice has been taken of his manners and ways. That could have far ranging effects not only at this dinner but in future relations not necessarily limited to those present.
Pulling off a trick once on display means you can never use that trick again or you get pegged as a trickster even. That can manifest as a personal diplomacy penalty among the movers and shakers, a bad reputation for Christian, or even a blemish towards his groups standing. The effects are not simple because social interactions are not simple. Otherwise it would be a easy thing for anyone.
In my opinion Christian gained a short term, perhaps even a short lived, advantage at the expense of long term interactions not only with Alysandra and her people but with a great deal of people. Sense he was so public and open with his mannerisms towards her.
I am sure their are a far amount of NPCs and PCs that are more long viewed and insightful enough to see things as they are. If they choose to acknowledge it or not is something else entirely. ;)
It isn't just NPCs that should take note, is my belief - or, again as being my belief, writing post-event as though it were his actual tactics. Were they his actual tactics, he would have written of such before the posting, and not after. Writing otherwise makes it a 'sour grapes' thing, saying 'I meant to do that' after a spectacular crash.
And yes, I hope that PCs as well as NPCs take note, though the one present ... clearly didn't. :P :)
Anyhow. Forge on!!
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Maybe I didn't mention this (or maybe I did), but PvP is not going to happen in the adventure.
All of your characters will need to work together to survive. Maybe not during the dinner, but soon enough.
Don't worry, the bad guys are near, and ready to strike, and you will have something to work together to defeat. Or should I say survive?
So... please try not to think in "I won"/"He won" terms. Think it in term of "How are we going to work together?" terms.
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Just to be clear...
It is not really a "combat", where you are "required" or "expected" to defeat somebody or something.
Is more like a "get to know the players" kind of introduction.
Yes, I know it can get boring if we are not careful, but I think is a best way of doing it that a long wall of text.
And don't worry, the action will start soon. Just need to get rid of the preliminaries first.
That had been the intent, yes.
You guys post a lot. It's kind of nice.
Just waiting to see if any of the Four Swords reacted to my slight of them.
That's what I get for posting before going to work. I forgot the Sense Motive again. -.-
Edit- Well I know the king's dirty little thoughts......Stuffed kobold dolls in every color of the rainbow. Such a demented man, he needs help in the truest form of the word. xP
Well I got something for the halfling, "come into my web said the spider to the fly", enjoy. xP
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I am actually pretty sure, that having not met with the CG Sorceress that once he hears about her being queen, The Hellknights are going to pack up, and go build thier Citadel elsewhere instead of the capital, and sod the rest of the country.
That is my initial impression, that may change as the night goes on, but for now I wouldn't get too enamoured by the tall [for a gnome] hellknight.
A neutral King he could handle, but with the shift of the state to chaotic, Axhammer will simply say his good byes and do what needs to be done elsewhere.
Why does this always happen when I try to play anything at all lawful...
I swear to god I am cursed
Easy Axhammer, who is to say this king will be our king. Who is to say this queen may make it to queendom. Who is to say that the realm need be a monarchy at all. Don't count on anything just yet, nothing is set in stone. More so whenever PCs are involved. ;)
best-laid plans of mice and men oft go astray
You would also be making a sweeping statement that because Amavin is partly Chaotic, that it's going to make the entire state chaotic. Doesn't the King get a say? He comes across as pretty Lawful imo.
As far as I know, a kingdom's overall alignment has nothing to do with it's rulers. A lawful good kingdom still has the whole spectrum of alignments but as a majority and whole it's people are LG. Any alignment change would be gradual at best unless a major event took place to shift it. I think, if I had more time I would look up the kingdom building rules to confirm.
Sadly it's night night for me. :)
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Women have a way of getting what they want, not to mention the fact the woman in question is a sorceress which gives her access to magic, she has snubbed him, and if placed on the throne Axhammer would think twice before staying in the same place as her, because his force isn't large enough to destroy the army that the country can create in a short time, so he would have to retreat and build up his forces, and call in assistance from Cheliax and the Hellknights.
I actually have no real say and whats happening, so its not like I am attempting to screw over anyone, however it will appear to Axhammer that he is getting screwed over without even doing anything.
This situation RIGHT HERE, is why hellknights get a bad rap, because they think of thier mens lives as well as thiers, and build up forces stratigicly and then descend with legions onto thier enemies.
Being backed into a corner is s~~#e to be honest.
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Another point that Every Single Person in the kingdom would be thinking is, Magic can be made undetecable, alchemicals can't be detected in any way beyond Very high level divination
This Sorceress just met the king, in private, and is now queen.
This should send up enough red flags that a lynching party would form within hours and she should be hung and or killed before the king and his men can react. The king should know better than to immeaditly make a mage his queen.
Um, OK.
I'm just loving the irony of a Paladin and one of the most Lawful characters in the game support a lynch mob going after royalty while attempting to kill said Royal. Then claims he has an issue with the situation because said queen is a sorceress and then decide he would get reinforcements from Cheliax the state that has a lawful evil sorceress queen currently in control of the nation. Like, there's so much irony there I could write a poem.
Like by all means disagree with it, react to it. At the same time though, don't overreact and think it though. There's a hell of a lot of stereotypes, judgements and assumptions you might be making purely out of character.
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Why does this always happen when I try to play anything at all lawful... I swear to god I am cursed
Only because you're doing it to yourself. You are playing Lawful as being 'my way or the highway', 'my understanding of what Lawful is only', and reacting at best in an OOC manner, and with a most paranoid, xenophobic, straightjacket-restrictive sense of your alignment, class, prestige class, and personality.
Lawful does not mean that.
Lawful means 'things will proceed in an orderly fashion.' It means that society's structure comes first, and individual freedom has to fit into it, not the other way around. 'Lawful' in anything but an Outer-Planar ABSOLUTE LAW sense must by nature of living require flexibility, room for adjustments, 'a little bit of chaos'. Otherwise it is tyranny.
And consider that you just said this:
"All here know me as a hellknight, though few would say Paladin, though I am one. I work for LAW, for not only the idea, or ideal. I work for the eternal force that is Law. If working with you will stop smuggling then working with you is the best way. I will work with any being that is not wholly corrupted by evil and choas, who is willing to make this happen. There will be assasins in on the take, though I detest the use of them. Of course there will be spies and those who use rumor and fear to get what they want. What you propose is to work together and elimate that element which would undermine all that we would work for."
For the greater good, you are willing to work with those who, also for the greater good, actively engage in subversively evading the law, and yet you have a problem with someone who fights alongside paladins in order to uphold the greater good and ensure that personal liberty is not crushed by social strictures?
I mean, WTF? Why the hell are you not, right now, busy smacking Aolis and Christian around for their blatant, anti-social, Chaotic actions right in front of your face???
Women have a way of getting what they want, not to mention the fact the woman in question is a sorceress which gives her access to magic, she has snubbed him, and if placed on the throne Axhammer would think twice before staying in the same place as her, because his force isn't large enough to destroy the army that the country can create in a short time, so he would have to retreat and build up his forces, and call in assistance from Cheliax and the Hellknights.
Wait a second. She said 'hold on, back up, a) why me, and b) no way you're getting control of the People Who Do Good Deeds', and you're NOT ONLY being insanely misogynistic by saying 'women have a way of getting what they want', but immediately jumping to the conclusion that she is going to have it out at a lethal must-slay level for Axhammer and his men, and you're already making plans to leave the country, gather an army, and march on them?? Do you not see the issue you have, here?!?
I actually have no real say and whats happening, so its not like I am attempting to screw over anyone, however it will appear to Axhammer that he is getting screwed over without even doing anything.
This situation RIGHT HERE, is why hellknights get a bad rap, because they think of thier mens lives as well as thiers, and build up forces stratigicly and then descend with legions onto thier enemies.
Being backed into a corner is s&&*e to be honest.
Get frickin' real - you aren't 'thinking of your men', you're making a knee-jerk (emphasis on 'jerk') prejudiced-to-the-max declaration as to what a Chaotic Good PC saying YES to marrying the king would automatically mean for you. YOUR REACTION, if it is typical of Hellknights, is why they get a bad rap and bad rep - because their automatic reaction to someone who believes in personal choice over societal strictures is "Burn the witch!!"
Did she say she would make sure that Hellknights, Paladins, and the rest would be driven from the country? No.
Did she back you into a corner? Hasn't even left the effing room, and is actually kind of trying to talk her way out of the situation.
Everything you claim is an exclusive product of your imagination. Don't go bringing anyone else into it.
Another point that Every Single Person in the kingdom would be thinking is, Magic can be made undetecable, alchemicals can't be detected in any way beyond Very high level divination
This Sorceress just met the king, in private, and is now queen.
This should send up enough red flags that a lynching party would form within hours and she should be hung and or killed before the king and his men can react. The king should know better than to immeaditly make a mage his queen.
Everyone also knows that charms wear off over a matter of days; delay the marriage at least two weeks, make sure the two are kept seperate for that long, and if the king is still set on it and says it was his idea, then yeah, it was his idea.
And if you don't think that this would be bloody habit for high nobility and royalty, you certainly have a completely different concept of the world than, well, pretty much any of the rest of us.
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... wow.
I mean, I understand if it's a plot point, the king is marrying some unknown sorceress who is a dedicated disciple of a goddess of revenge and havoc, but she's not only Chaotic Good, but ICly been your teammate - presumably for years - and Titian would just 'nope, not gonna be my queen' without a second thought?
Man, and I thought I was being persnickety ...
Hey Titan, I was reading your pledge, and I was wondering what Amavin did to piss off Titian? I know that as a player, you are perfectly ok with Calistrians in general (because in a previous game, with a previous character you have been OK with flirting with one in general), so what is it that Titian dislikes about Amavin so much so that he would leave the group so suddenly, when in Rp we know each other for at least a few weeks or months?Just wondering here.
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It is a pure theological thiyng and also connected to my personal secret. Erastil and calistrea are about as much anathema as possible.
To ride with someone is one thing to be governed totally diffrent. Comparing it to orthodox jews being governed by hippies.
As a person I am absolutely fine with it, and I am looking forward to it.
Erastil and calistrea are about as much anathema as possible.
That ... I guess must be a matter of personal interpretation of the two gods, as well as personal interpretation of the fact that one can be significantly different than a god while still worshipping them due to a particular aspect.
To ride with someone is one thing to be governed totally diffrent.
Absolutely. To be governed by them, you must be patient, watch the results of their actions, and if they prove to be against your morality, to raise up your voice (or banner, depending) against them. When you ride with them, you're only trusting to them 'our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.'
So yeah, totally different. A king or a queen typically has a miniscule effect on the lives of an adventurer.
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EDIT
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No one has a saying whom the king will marry, but the king.
Actually, an amazing number of people have a say in it - primarily the king's counsellors and the high nobility of his nation. The social structure of an aristocracy requires the king to be aware of the force balances between his faction and those of his leading nobles, only some of whom may be on his side. He and the nobility are equally aware of the social structure in which they work, and have a vested interest in seeing that their honors are respected (which is why Aolis's deliberate physical blocking of the king would have a high chance of being defined as lèse-majesté), and even if they hate each other's guts, will make sure that those of lower social rank give even their bitterest foes the correct respect due their station.
Violating such things ... well, I wouldn't do it until I was at least 15th level.
It is a pure theological thiyng and also connected to my personal secret. Erastil and calistrea are about as much anathema as possible.
To ride with someone is one thing to be governed totally diffrent. Comparing it to orthodox jews being governed by hippies.
As a person I am absolutely fine with it, and I am looking forward to it.
Ah gotcha, I can see where you are coming from now. I might not 100% agree with the statement behind it, but I just read Axhammer's reason's again, so next to them, it looks solid.
Anyway, I just got back from work now, so I'll respond to every single one of Axhammer's points because hey, I don't mind. Wouldn't want him to feed snubbed :)
So to begin:
I am actually pretty sure, that having not met with the CG Sorceress that once he hears about her being queen, The Hellknights are going to pack up, and go build thier Citadel elsewhere instead of the capital, and sod the rest of the country.
Well, I guess thats fair, and I'm prepared to accept that. I'd personally think its a little early and shortsighted to admit defeat so early but hey, its your guys call. Remember that Amavin still needs to negotiate wit like, everyone present, and he could have probably used the Citiadel as a form of leverage, or something to push for in addition to receiving support but however you best want to play it out dear.
A neutral King he could handle, but with the shift of the state to chaotic, Axhammer will simply say his good byes and do what needs to be done elsewhere.
There is no evidence that because the state would have a CG Queen, the entire state would be chaotic. King still has the final say, still is probably extremely Lawful. Theres plenty of examples where the alignment of the state does not match the alignment of the ruler. Don't worry about it.
Women have a way of getting what they want
This is not a reason. Leaving aside how extraordinary sexist and offensive the statement itself actually is, it's also utter bs, and while Axhammer might not know it, you sure as hell know that its incorrect in this particular situation. OOC, you know that Amavin's first two statements after the proposal pretty much check to see 'why her', and 'who else is better qualified'. Reading between the lines, this would indicate Amavin is not really happy with the proposal. Therefore, if "women are getting what they want", I'd be stepping away from Queen, something you would actually be favourable towards.
not to mention the fact the woman in question is a sorceress which gives her access to magic
Hey isn't Axhammer part Oracle? Doesn't he have magic of his own? Doesn't he also have a cleric as his chief follower? I have no idea why this is even relevant in the first place. If you are implying magical domination, there's way's to fully check that, and again, ooc, you know exactly that this didn't happen. Either IC or OOC, there's no reason for "this women has magic" to even be a relevant argument, there are legitimate ways to check magical influence or domination.
she has snubbed him,
So, heres the definition of Snub, in case you were curious:
snubverb
1.
rebuff, ignore, or spurn disdainfully.
noun
1.
an act of rebuffing or ignoring someone or something.
R1 Amavin entered the room first, promptly chatted to someone, and then R1 Axhammer entered the room and "stood in a corner". R2 Amavin was approached by the head of state who urgently a personal chat. Are you suggesting that Axhammer, branding himself as the most lawful character in the room, somehow expects Amavin to be telepathic, realise that Axhammer is waiting on her, and simultaneously expect her to drop everything and "snub" (since we are using that word now), the monarch. All this from the "Lawful" guy. If say, Amavin talked to everyone else at the party BUT Axhammer and then left, then Axhammer has a right to be cross, but I don't think he has cause to be upset. Remember that timewise, she's probably been in the party for all of 10 mins tops, and in that time he's made no attempts to personally greet her or ask for an audience, and now he feels snubbed. Does he feel snubbed by like, everyone else at the party as well? On the flipside, if the intent is to have Axhammer have a colossal ego, then I take everything I said here in response to this point back, because that would be really excellent roleplaying.
and if placed on the throne Axhammer would think twice before staying in the same place as her, because his force isn't large enough to destroy the army that the country can create in a short time
Whoa Whoa Whoa. How did we jump from "snubbed because she didn't spend the first 10 mins of a party talking to me" to "OMG SHES GOING TO KILL ME". I actually needed to re-read this several times to make sure I wasn't missing something, maybe written in white text or something. Where did Axhammer get the impression that the CG Sorceress is going to raise an army specifically targeted to crush a LG Paladin, of all people. Or vice versa, what does the LG Paladin, what to raise a force large enough to take on the army of a Good Aligned Kingdom. Is he channeling his inner AntiPaladin or something? Like I can understand leaving, thats his choice, but feeling threatened? Really? What has Amavin does to really warrant that level of paranoia?
so he would have to retreat and build up his forces, and call in assistance from Cheliax and the Hellknights.
I still think this is the funniest thing because it makes 0 sense. Your LG Paladin is going to Cheliax, and asking the LE Sorceress queen for an army to lay waste to a Good aligned Kingdom, because a CG Sorcerer is accepting a marriage proposal from a LG King (probably LG). Is this opposite day or something?
This situation RIGHT HERE, is why hellknights get a bad rap, because they think of thier mens lives as well as thiers, and build up forces stratigicly and then descend with legions onto thier enemies.
No, Hellknights get a bad rap because people play Hellknights and don't realise what the "Lawful" part of their alignment means. Ironically, Paladin's have the same problem, because people tend to play them Lawful Stupid.
Being backed into a corner is s!#*e to be honest.
You are not being backed into a corner dear, it's all in your head. You are merely blowing this entire thing out of proportion therefore, if you feel that you are being backed into a corner, it's a situation of your own making.
Another point that Every Single Person in the kingdom would be thinking is, Magic can be made undetecable, alchemicals can't be detected in any way beyond Very high level divination. This Sorceress just met the king, in private, and is now queen.This should send up enough red flags that a lynching party would form within hours and she should be hung and or killed before the king and his men can react. The king should know better than to immeaditly make a mage his queen.
You know what else gets magic? Paladins. Therefore, following your logic, a female paladin that just met with a king and received a marriage proposal [u]must be lynched[/u]. Like, lets fact check here. Lets look at how many classes in the game cannot be married to a king (or queen). We have Alchemist, AntiPaladin, Arcanist, Bard, Bloodrager, Cleric, Druid, some Fighters, Hunter, Inquisitor, Investigator, Magus, Medium, Mesmerist, Occultist, Oracle, Paladin, Psychic, Ranger, some Rogues, Shaman, Sorcerer Skald, Spiritualist, Summoner, Warpriest, Wizard, Witch, some Vigilante, and the NPC Class Adept. Don't get me started on Prestige Classes (like the Hellknight Signifer...). So, if ANYONE of the above classes receives a marriage proposal from a king (or queen), regardless of their alignment, a lynching party would form within hours and said character would be hung and or killed, because the ruling monarch should "know better". I just...I don't see how in any universe this happens, unless it's like, a homebrew setting of your own design.
Bottom line, there's fair and legitimate ways to Axhammer to disagree. They are there, go find them. Heck, go read Titian's post, actually had a solid reason I can get behind. Heck, as a character and player, I can disagree with it, but its a logical reason, and heck, it makes for good roleplaying. Its fun. Most of what you said though, is illogical and thats largely why I'm responding to your post a bit more angrily that I would usually, because its largely full if unsubstantiated accusations and the odd sexist remark.
The Wyrm Ouroboros has an excellent post above indicating what lawful us, and I'm pretty sure there are paizo threads in the advice forum as to how to play a Paladin (AKA Lawful guy ever). Or you can type in google 'how can I roleplay as a Hellknight' for more lawful tips. I can actually go out and link you these threads for you if you want because I used them as a resource for myself when I wanted to play a Paladin (yes, I know he is also a Hellknight)