| Thoron Entheart |
Hey guys, we've just made the decision to start a Hell's Rebels campaign and I've decided to play a front line fighter. The only issue is that we don't have a party rogue so I'm gonna have to splash a level or 2 in rogue for that. My original plan was for to do a TWF crit build using kukris but my stats are really low, and I don't want to dump charisma knowing there is gonna be a lot of out of combat action.
I am looking for a fun fighting style that will fit thematically and no 2h weapons as we already have 2 barbarian types. Any and all suggestions are appreciated. I'm also looking at how to fit my levels of rogue in and when i should take them to get the best possible play.
P.S. I don't want to dump Cha too far
Primary Class: Fighter
Secondary Class: Rogue
Race: Human
Rolled Stats: 14, 13, 12, 10, 10, 8
Thanks in advance
| Nargemn |
Slayer could be a solid choice for what you're trying to do. Take the trapfinding talent at second level. Unfortunately with your stats (ouch, they equal out to an 8-point buy!) you're going to really struggle trying to pull off dual-wielding. I'd personally ask my GM for a mulligan on those or to be able to do a 15-point buy instead.
Ultimately if you're stuck with them and stuck on the idea of wanting to dual-wield, you could go STR 14, DEX 15 (human racial bonus here), CON 12, INT 10/8, WIS 10/8, CHA 10. This qualifies you for Two-Weapon Fighting from level 1.
As you continue to level you can put your talents into the ranger combat style (specifically two-weapon fighting). This will help ignore the steep Dex prerequisites for the TWF tree at higher levels.
Alternatively if you're willing to put off trapfinding until level 4, you can suffer through level 1 lacking TWF and at 2nd level take the Ranger Combat Style talent as described above, picking up Two-Weapon Fighting for 'free', and ignoring the Dex requirement.
If you do this you can arrange your stats in a bit of a better way, such as STR 16 (human bonus), DEX 12, CON 13, INT 10/8, WIS 10/8, CHA 10.
The first method will let you trapfind early on, while the second one makes for a bit better of an 'optimized' character and helps to take advantage of feats free of prerequisites to ignore your low stats.
| Heretek |
Don't play in games where you roll for stats, and especially don't if you intend to be melee. Deliberately doing minimal magic items also only hurts you in the end since magic items are an actual requirement for fighters. You're falling into a terrible trap.
That said: Play a Slayer, pick up Trapfinding at level 2. Solves all your class issues. As for the actual fighting style, sword and board is bad, and twf is bad and you don't have the stats to do it anyway as mentioned. So just 2h a greatsword or falchion like a normal person.
| Thoron Entheart |
I like the look of Slayer, but my GM is normally wary of using classes that we find online, we're normally restricted to the main rulebooks so I'll have to talk to him about it.
As for the whole "Don't play. Use 2h. Don't be bad." I roleplay for the experience of the game. The only reason that I'm even asking for help is that I have 14 less ability points than the next worst fighter type and I dont want to be bored at the table. I want to look into ways to be able to enjoy the game despite being massive weakling.
| Heretek |
I like the look of Slayer, but my GM is normally wary of using classes that we find online, we're normally restricted to the main rulebooks so I'll have to talk to him about it.
As for the whole "Don't play. Use 2h. Don't be bad." I roleplay for the experience of the game. The only reason that I'm even asking for help is that I have 14 less ability points than the next worst fighter type and I dont want to be bored at the table. I want to look into ways to be able to enjoy the game despite being massive weakling.
Not sure what you mean by "main rulebooks" since the Advanced Class Guide which includes the Slayer is part of the main series. If you really mean you only play with the base CRB then.... abandon ship even more frankly.
| Cheburn |
Hey guys, we've just made the decision to start a Hell's Rebels campaign and I've decided to play a front line fighter. The only issue is that we don't have a party rogue so I'm gonna have to splash a level or 2 in rogue for that. My original plan was for to do a TWF crit build using kukris but my stats are really low, and I don't want to dump charisma knowing there is gonna be a lot of out of combat action.
You're in for a rough time if you're trying to fill the skill position of a Rogue (Trapfinding, Stealth, Disable Device, maybe some Diplomacy/Bluff) with the skill points of a Fighter (2/lvl) with an abysmally low stat array.
In general though, any frontliner is going to have problems due to the stats you have, especially coupled with low WBL and a desire not to use Two-Handed weapons. Slayer (already suggested) might be able to fill a lot of what you're looking for. Ranger (Urban Ranger for trapfinding etc.) might be able to, since they can skip pre-reqs and ability score requirements for combat style feats. Maybe using a shield for a little extra protection, since you're not going to deal a ton of damage regardless.
Anyway, best of luck -- definitely sounds like a rough situation. In your position, I'd be looking to play a Bard or some class that is a little less dependent on high stats, and stays off of the front lines. Hope you find something that works for you.
| Nargemn |
As I said above, I think you should petition your GM to allow you to mulligan your stats or to be able to customize your stats with a 15-point buy. If he feels leery concerning this, you can remind him (or show for the first time as he may not know) that EVERY NPC in published adventure paths, modules, and scenarious which possesses PC class levels (IE Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, Rogue, etc) is built using a 15-point buy. Only NPCs with NPC classes (Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior) are built with a lower point buy, which is 3. So you're not quite an NPC, but pretty damn close.
As others said, basic non-magical characters will really suffer without access to magic items, as the game is built around the presumption that you'll have a certain amount of magical enhancement by certain levels. This coupled with your low stats means you're probably not going to survive or feel you can really contribute.
Now, it's certainly possible your GM has taken this all into account, is nerfing encounters as necessary to fit what your group is expected to handle, and has planned everything out. But we can't know for sure. You mentioned that yours are the lowest ability scores, what about the rest of your party? If everyone else is sub-15 point buy, expect to be slaughtered unless your GM chooses to really pull their punches. And if everyone else's ability scores far outweigh what you have, you're going to feel like dead weight.
Do you know why your GM has chosen not to include standard magic items? Is it from a power perspective, or does he not care for the feel of the 'magic-market'? A very elegant solution comes from the automatic bonus progression system, which takes out the 'big 6' most common magic items and works them directly into your character's leveling. This will help immensely to ease the pain you will feel when a wizard is blasting enemies away or controlling the battlefield and you can only hit someone with a measly masterwork kukri for poor damage.
I guess the point is more information concerning the campaign will do more to help us help you. You should encourage your GM to check out this thread or post his own too so he can get some tips or encouragement to help make things a little more fair for everyone and to better get expectation management under check.
| Scott Wilhelm |
Hey guys, we've just made the decision to start a Hell's Rebels campaign and I've decided to play a front line fighter. The only issue is that we don't have a party rogue so I'm gonna have to splash a level or 2 in rogue for that. My original plan was for to do a TWF crit build using kukris but my stats are really low, and I don't want to dump charisma knowing there is gonna be a lot of out of combat action.
I am looking for a fun fighting style that will fit thematically and no 2h weapons as we already have 2 barbarian types. Any and all suggestions are appreciated. I'm also looking at how to fit my levels of rogue in and when i should take them to get the best possible play.
P.S. I don't want to dump Cha too far
Primary Class: Fighter
Secondary Class: Rogue
Race: Human
Rolled Stats: 14, 13, 12, 10, 10, 8Thanks in advance
So it sounds like you want to go for high damage via the Full Attack Action, so the more attacks the better. How married are you to being Human? Maybe you could go for a Natural Attack Build. Use Dirty Tricks to make your opponents Blind, locking in your Sneak Attack Damage, which will be then multiplied by your many, many Attacks.
How available will magic items be? will you or any other character be capable of making Magic Items?
Can you be a Tengu: 2 Claws and a Bite for starters.
Acquire a Helm of the Mammoth Lord: Gore Attack.
Take a level in White Haired Witch: Hair Attack.
Take 2 levels in Alchemist (The Vivisectionist Alchemist Archetype gets Sneak Attack), and take Feral Mutagen: 2 Claws and a Bite.
Take 4 levels in Druid and the Shaping Focus Feat. Druidzilla characters can be very exciting, but take you too far from what you want.
So, how do you want to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage? I favor Dirty Tricks. Get Quick, Greater dirty trick, and you can sacrifice one of your many Natural Attacks to make your opponent Blind, then the rest of them get the bonus Damage.
So, how do you get Sneak Attack Damage in the first place? There is Rogue, of course. People really like Unchained. I favor Ninja. I mentioned Vivisectionist Alchemist. Someone mentioned Slayer. I'll add the Bounty Hunter Archetype. They have special traits that work with Dirty Tricks. There is the Snakebite Striker Archetype of Brawler.
Also, there are 2 Feats: Precise Strike and Accomplished Sneak Attacker.
Speaking of Feats, there is 1 of 2 things I might build towards next. Sap Adept feats and Hamatula Strike. Sap Adept works with blunt weapons, do only nonlethal damage, but more than double your SAD. With HS, you get a free grapple with every hit with a Piercing weapon. If you wear Armor Spikes, you get bonus 1d6(+any bonuses) with every successful Grapple Attack, and since the Grapple Check was an Attack Roll as well, you get Sneak Attack Damage for that, too. Since 1 works with piercing and the other with bludgeoning, you mostly can't do both.
So this advice of mine is very generalized. I might give you more specific advice depending on your interest.
| chuffster |
In what sense do you want to be a front line fighter? I mean, anybody can stand in the front line, but with those stats it's going to be very hard to hit anybody or to avoid being hit yourself.
You might want to take a peek at the Investigator. Beats the rogue cold when it comes to skills. Once Studied Combat comes on line you are a pretty effective fighter with a completely different feel than a 2H barbarian. You also get alchemy and can easily pick up mutagen in class.
Peak damage is a little lower but my personal experience is that trying to get sneak attack consistently in game is a carnival of sadness.
| JulianW |
There's probably a lot of role-play mileage to be had in the character, especially for that AP. The theme of Hell's Rebels would really suit someone who's just a regular guy who feels compelled to stand up against oppression, even though he isn't mega tough - would certainly make them all the more heroic if they do succeed. (Or alternatively someone full of bluster who makes out they are the big hero but can't back it up).
Perhaps you can get some leeway in social situations here - occasionally remind the GM that maybe the city watch will be paying more attention to the two muscle-bound barbarians with greatswords than the scrawny guy who works in the bakery (or whatever day job).
I've had a lot of fun in some PFS scenarios with characters who aren't mega combat optimized by focusing on stuff like aid another, handing out the antitoxins,doing first aid, lobbing alchemists fire, using re-position on allies or things like 'I shut the door and shove the table up against it' - there's a lot you can do to help a party tactically that is fun to do if you aren't tied up in worrying how much DPR is lost by not hitting something with a greatsword.
Based on the stats, if you want to do rogue stuff perhaps concentrate on either the dex based skills like stealth & disable device OR the cha based social stuff?
Like a lot of others though I recommend slayer for this given it really is martial class + rogue ready mixed in a can. Investigator also seems to be fun from the people I've seen play them. If the GM is basically restricting you to core then bard is probably best here. If they aren't then it may be worth looking for a copy of the Dirty Tactics Toolbox player companion - its full of stuff that is relevant to a character that is part martial and part rogue type.
Other ideas - have you considered using a bow instead? The weaker stats might hurt a bit less.
| Derklord |
I am looking for a fun fighting style that will fit thematically and no 2h weapons as we already have 2 barbarian types. Any and all suggestions are appreciated. I'm also looking at how to fit my levels of rogue in and when i should take them to get the best possible play.
P.S. I don't want to dump Cha too far
Primary Class: Fighter
Secondary Class: Rogue
Race: Human
Rolled Stats: 14, 13, 12, 10, 10, 8
Hm, that's a tough one... If what you've given is adamant, I'd go with Fighter 1/Rogue X (i.e. the rest), 8/10/13/10/12/14, and play a fun cellphone game during combat.
Let's face it, with that stats on a Fighter/Rogue multiclass in a low magic item campaign with two 2H Barbarians in your party you will never contribute anything meaningful to combat. Ever.Low stats hurt Pathfinder's weakest classes the most. Low magic items hurt Pathfinder's weakest classes the most. Fighter and Rogue are two of the weakest classes in all of Pathfinder. Abysmal point buy, low item campaign, multiclassing that makes you even weaker, and all that on a weak class to begin with and while playing a frontliner without the strongest melee style while you have two way stronger melees already in your party? No offense, but there are easier ways to live out masochism.
Ok, I'll try to be a bit more constructive:
First, I haven't played Hell's Rebels, what does a party need a Rogue for in that campaign? There is literally nothing the Rogue class is actually really good at.
Second, does it have to be a fighter? With crappy stats like that, I'd play a Eidolon focussed Summoner (10/12/13/10/8/14). 14 CHA is perfectly doable, you are controlling a front liner, your character can survive despite abysmal rolls (due to spells), your character isn't dependant on magic items, your character isn't bad at out-of-combat stuff, and you won't be totally outdamaged by the barbs.
An Eidolon focussed Summoner is basically a frontliner with a free quicken for avery spell. You could play Synthethist, people getting hasted every combat tend to whine significantly less when the are outclassed by an Eidolon than people who got their shtick stolen from them be a quasi full caster that only buffs his jello suit.