My team is 1 stalker, 1 sorcerer/ARCANIST 1 witch and( probably) 1 BIG AND BRUTE FRONT LINER. What is better a bard or a askald, and how to build him?
It will depend a lot on the players. If the stalker is strength based, a normal Skald should be fine -- especially if the sorc/arcanist brings in summons. Otherwise a bard that doesn't give away inspire courage is likely to work better with the group. If no one is interested in the normal raging song, you might look at urban skald. Their song is less powerful, but it doesn't get in the way of AC or skill checks.
I would lean towards skald because spell kenning will help fill in some of the healing/condition removal spells starting at level 5.
It will depend a lot on the players. If the stalker is strength based, a normal Skald should be fine -- especially if the sorc/arcanist brings in summons. Otherwise a bard that doesn't give away inspire courage is likely to work better with the group. If no one is interested in the normal raging song, you might look at urban skald. Their song is less powerful, but it doesn't get in the way of AC or skill checks.
I would lean towards skald because spell kenning will help fill in some of the healing/condition removal spells starting at level 5.
stalker is dex based
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stalker is dex based
In that case definitely go Bard. The Skald is great with STR characters, but the Skald's song is pretty worthless for dex based characters. (boosts their saves while lowering their AC)
There are quite a few ways to build them. Do you want to be pure support? Would you prefer to fight? Bards can also be pretty decent combatants - either melee or archery.
stalker is dex basedIn that case definitely go Bard. The Skald is great with STR characters, but the Skald's song is pretty worthless for dex based characters. (boosts their saves while lowering their AC)
There are quite a few ways to build them. Do you want to be pure support? Would you prefer to fight? Bards can also be pretty decent combatants - either melee or archery.
I don't think to go archery because we are gonna play S&S and DM suggests to not use ranged weapons( i trust him). I would like to go buffer and a lttle debuffer via intimidate skill.
Urban Skald can choose to boost Dex, Str or Con. Total bonus is less than a straight Skald, but it can be worthwhile. Since the the urban skald keeps Spell Kenning, you would still be able to bring in condition removal spells as well.
Does the stalker have a way to get Dex to Damage? If not, the regular Skald song might still be of interest to them.
Chelios, since you mention de-buffing, Urban Skald archetype has two unique ones: Infuriating Mockery and much later Humiliating Defamation.
One thing to consider - if your BIG BRUTE FRONTLINER can be convinced to dip a level or two of barbarian (I find Wild Rager is an excellent choice for this), the benefit he receives from a Skald jumps significantly.
We had a fantastic four-man half-orc party for Giantslayer based loosely around the concept for the movie 'Four Brothers' where one player was a Skald and the others were two Fighters and a Scarred Witch Doctor (original rules) but all four of them took a Barbarian or Blood Rager dip to represent the wildness in their blood... the effects were devastatingly effective.
I don't think to go archery because we are gonna play S&S and DM suggests to not use ranged weapons( i trust him). I would like to go buffer and a lttle debuffer via intimidate skill.stalker is dex basedIn that case definitely go Bard. The Skald is great with STR characters, but the Skald's song is pretty worthless for dex based characters. (boosts their saves while lowering their AC)
There are quite a few ways to build them. Do you want to be pure support? Would you prefer to fight? Bards can also be pretty decent combatants - either melee or archery.
No ranged weapons in Skull & Shackles? That seems... odd... to me. Well, I'm sure he has his reasons.
As far as de-buffing via Intimidate, make sure you have access to the 2nd level spell Blistering Invective, its excellent in that it doesn't require a feat or saving throw to work well - the fire damage is just a bonus.
One thing to consider - if your BIG BRUTE FRONTLINER can be convinced to dip a level or two of barbarian (I find Wild Rager is an excellent choice for this), the benefit he receives from a Skald jumps significantly.
We had a fantastic four-man half-orc party for Giantslayer based loosely around the concept for the movie 'Four Brothers' where one player was a Skald and the others were two Fighters and a Scarred Witch Doctor (original rules) but all four of them took a Barbarian or Blood Rager dip to represent the wildness in their blood... the effects were devastatingly effective.
I don't think to go archery because we are gonna play S&S and DM suggests to not use ranged weapons( i trust him). I would like to go buffer and a lttle debuffer via intimidate skill.stalker is dex basedIn that case definitely go Bard. The Skald is great with STR characters, but the Skald's song is pretty worthless for dex based characters. (boosts their saves while lowering their AC)
There are quite a few ways to build them. Do you want to be pure support? Would you prefer to fight? Bards can also be pretty decent combatants - either melee or archery.
No ranged weapons in Skull & Shackles? That seems... odd... to me. Well, I'm sure he has his reasons.
As far as de-buffing via Intimidate, make sure you have access to the 2nd level spell Blistering Invective, its excellent in that it doesn't require a feat or saving throw to work well - the fire damage is just a bonus.
Warlord and urban skald can archetype toghter, i can start from here.
What's wrong with a bard without archetypes? I don't think much of either of those archetypes myself.
i'm talking about skald not bard. Suggest me something with bard( also ranged, when underwater i can use magic and something like )
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What's wrong with a bard without archetypes? I don't think much of either of those archetypes myself.i'm talking about skald not bard. Suggest me something with bard( also ranged, when underwater i can use magic and something like )
Well I feel stupid. (There is - confusingly enough - a bard archetype called Skald. >.<)
I like Fencing Grace bards myself. A Halfling with jacked up Dex can be a pretty decent combatant himself once he grabs Fencing Grace and have solid defenses besides.
If you jack up your CHA and just hold a banner you can be a solid illusionist/enchanter. (probably best as gnome or kitsune respectively to jack up your DCs) Illusionists can be especially nice because of how efficient Image spells are, you still have plenty of spells for buffing.
Your GM is warning against ranged because a lot of things happen under water and you be unable to do much at low levels.
A sound striker would be ok, but that takes a few levels to get there for that.
Though to be fair, that's still probably only like 10% of the encounters
I don't want to add spoilers. I'll be as general as possible. But the end half of a whole book isn't what I'd call 10 %.
Maybe over all the whole AP? Yes. But the first few have the lions share and little ways to deal with them at that level.
Even of that wasn't the case and it was spread out, the GM did his due diligence be saying something. I'd not want to sit on my ass 10 % of the game and it's more like 30% near the first third.
I guess it depends on what your interpretation is regarding what the OP said... there's a difference between not making an archery-based character and 'to not use ranged weapons'. Besides, no Bard, archery-focused or otherwise, should ever be lacking for something to do in combat, regardless of environment. I'd not call being unable to use one of a dozen or so options at my disposal 'sitting on my ass'...
i really like to build around intimidate debuffing, because YAAARRH I'M A PIRRRRRRRATE ESCPAPE FROM ME
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i really like to build around intimidate debuffing, because YAAARRH I'M A PIRRRRRRRATE ESCPAPE FROM ME
If you go with a melee build with a slashing weapon you can go with the Blade of Mercy/Enforcer combo.
Blade of Mercy lets you do nonlethal damage with slashing weapons at no penalty, plus +1 bonus damage. (officially requires worship of Pharasma)
Enforcer makes it so that every time you do nonlethal damage you get to do an intimate check so that they're shaken for a # of rounds equal to the damage. On a crit they are frightened for one turn.
To be pirate-y, you could say that you go nonlethal because you want the chance to decide whether to hold them for ransom.
That combined with the occasional Blistering Invective seem to fit the bill.
i really like to build around intimidate debuffing, because YAAARRH I'M A PIRRRRRRRATE ESCPAPE FROM MEIf you go with a melee build with a slashing weapon you can go with the Blade of Mercy/Enforcer combo.
Blade of Mercy lets you do nonlethal damage with slashing weapons at no penalty, plus +1 bonus damage. (officially requires worship of Pharasma)
Enforcer makes it so that every time you do nonlethal damage you get to do an intimate check so that they're shaken for a # of rounds equal to the damage. On a crit they are frightened for one turn.
To be pirate-y, you could say that you go nonlethal because you want the chance to decide whether to hold them for ransom.
That combined with the occasional Blistering Invective seem to fit the bill.
i never understand how non lethal damage works, the bucaneer archetype makes non-lethal dmg from lv 1 with all weapons
Human (Ulfen) skald (urban skald, warlord) 1 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Heroes of the Street 25, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 49, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue 49)
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception -1
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Defense
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AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 11 (1d8+3)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee longsword +3 (1d8+2/19-20)
Special Attacks raging song 6 rounds/day (controlled inspired rage, inspired rage)
Skald (Urban Skald, Warlord) Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +4)
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Statistics
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Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 14
Feats Dazzling Display, Intimidating Prowess, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Weapon Focus (longsword)
Traits touched by the sea
Skills Bluff +7, Climb +6, Diplomacy +7, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (geography) +3, Knowledge (local) +7, Perform (oratory) +7, Profession (sailor) +5, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +7; Racial Modifiers +2 Profession (sailor), +2 Swim
Languages Aquan, Common, Polyglot, Skald, Undercommon
SQ adoptive parentage (weapon focus), bardic knowledge +1, heart of the sea
Other Gear longsword, 135 gp
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Special Abilities
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Adoptive Parentage (Weapon Focus, Elf) Gain Weapon Focus with an appropriate weapon.
Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex) Add +1 to all knowledge skill checks.
Dazzling Display (Longsword) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Heart of the Sea +4 concentration to cast spells underwater, and you can hold your breath twice as long.
Raging Song (standard action, 6 rounds/day) (Su) Song can inspire allies in a variety of ways.
I'm not sure about skill focus, probably power attack is bettere, i don't know
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i never understand how non lethal damage works, the bucaneer archetype makes non-lethal dmg from lv 1 with all weapons
Yes - that would allow you to avoid needing Blade of Mercy and use any weapon type. (Though losing bardic knowledge hurts a bit.)
Nonlethal basically works like lethal except that they're knocked out instead of killed (unless you double the damage normally needed to kill).
Sounds like the archetype's fluff definitely fits Skull & Shackles.
If you grab Enforcer, I'd pick an 18-20 weapon to max your crit chance so that they are Frightened more. Probably a rapier since it's piercing and can be used underwater at no penalty, and it will allow you to grab Fencing Grace eventually.
And I would agree. But the GM didn't say "don't make a bard" He said don't focus on ranged. Which would be sitting. A lot. Not to mention wasting feats.
But yes a bard always has something to do. Part of the reason it's an amazing class
Again, if you're going to use quotes, he actually said 'not to use a ranged weapon', which is very different from 'don't focus on ranged'... it might seem splitting hairs, but that's all we technically know. Even still, an crossbow-based Ranger could still do quite well in this AP.
On the topic at hand...
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I don't think a dex build is a great idea. Climb and swim are strength skills and this is the AP where they actually matter. Also, rapiers cannot be used with piranha strike and dex builds can't really afford the prereqs for power attack.
Bards don't really have the spare accuracy to make either of those things good choices anyway.
A shield of some sort will help your AC almost as much as a dex focus
Why not get both? Nothing bout Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace disallow using a shield so long as your hand remains free. My combat bard uses Fencing Grace with a light shield.
Under the literal interpretation of the rules you can juggle a quickdraw shield if you have the quickdraw feat and attack two handed during your turn while benefiting from the shield bonus outside it, though you don't get access to a two handable martial piercing weapon so it's less attractive to do so in S&S.
Only in the most ridiculous form of RAW. No GM worth their salt would allow it, and they could easily disallow it by RAW limiting of free actions.
One thing to consider - if your BIG BRUTE FRONTLINER can be convinced to dip a level or two of barbarian (I find Wild Rager is an excellent choice for this), the benefit he receives from a Skald jumps significantly.No it doesn't. He gets to use his rage numbers, but if it's a dip they're the same or lower than the skald's. He doesn't get to use any of his rage or bloodrage powers on a skald's raging song.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but let's say...
A 3rd level Fighter would get +2 STR, +2 CON and +1 Will from a 4th level Skald... whereas a 2nd level Fighter/1st level Barbarian would get +4 STR, +4 CON and +2 Will saves from the same Raging Song ability, without ever having to burn his own Rage, correct? From where I'm sitting, that's twice the benefit for at least the first 7 levels and a break even until 16th level after which time he can simply choose to use the Skald's numbers instead - plus he has his own Rage to fall back on in emergencies.
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One thing to consider - if your BIG BRUTE FRONTLINER can be convinced to dip a level or two of barbarian (I find Wild Rager is an excellent choice for this), the benefit he receives from a Skald jumps significantly.No it doesn't. He gets to use his rage numbers, but if it's a dip they're the same or lower than the skald's. He doesn't get to use any of his rage or bloodrage powers on a skald's raging song.Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but let's say...
An 3rd level Fighter would get +2 STR, +2 CON and +1 Will from a 4th level Skald... whereas a 2nd level Fighter/1st level Barbarian would get +4 STR, +4 CON and +2 Will saves from the same Raging Song ability, without ever having to burn his own Rage, correct? From where I'm sitting, that's twice the benefit for at least the first 7 levels and a break even until 16th level after which time he can simply choose to use the Skald's numbers instead.
+2 STR/Con & +1 Will at low levels, but also an extra -1 AC.
Once you get 'break even' your rage ability is basically worthless and you have the opportunity cost of that 1 level dip which would have been better spent somewhere else.
So, while I agree with you that it gives a benefit at low levels, I also don't think that it's worth a dip due to the opportunity cost.
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The spell warrior skald also doesn't negatively effect its teammates, while giving everyone access to the other nice rage powers. Just get your sorcerer to keep a weapon on him.
Yeah, Spell Warrior or Urban Skald can help a lot, depending on what you want to do. Spell Warrior slightly depends on what level you're expecting to play at. Spell Warrior tapers off late game (since with higher bonuses, you can buff fewer weapons.) And Urban Skald/vanilla Skald get a lot better at 10/11 when you can hand out Greater Skald's Vigor.
I'd figure out what sort of buffing you want to do. Specifically, I'd look at what Rage Powers you might want to hand out. You can also look at Totemic Skald, which has a bunch of other options from Animal Focus powers.
You could make a very defensive healer-y Skald for example:
Mouse Totem - Everyone gets Evasion (combine w/Heightened Reflexes spell)
Guarded Life/Guarded Life greater - Everyone converts twice your level damage into nonlethal when they would go below 0.
Greater Skald's Vigor - Everyone gets Fast Healing 4.
I m gonna play S&S so i think spell warrior is better because we start from lv 1.
I'm thinking about something like cavalier/skald...| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By the way, totemic skald is incredibly fun for healing if done right. Follow me here:
you gain fast healing equal to the Strength bonus your song provides
Basic, we get this
Your allies share in the fast healing granted by your Skald's Vigor
K, whole party gets it now
a totemic skald grants the animal focus abilities of his totem animal (as the hunter's animal focus ability) to all allies affected by his raging song.
Combined with
Bull: The creature gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level and +6 at 15th level.
Now you roughly double the amount of fast healing you can do, reaching fast healing 12 at 16th. I believe there are more things you can do
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Not without a completely ad hoc ban. It uses four free actions of two types per round. A bowman with 6 BAB and rapid and manyshot uses four free actions of the same type per round.
The number of free actions has nothing to do with it. It's a free action to speak for 6 seconds, that doesn't mean that you can speak for 24 seconds each round.
Skalds have some super flavorful archetypes that are kind of meh mechanically. Skulls and Shackles might actually be a good place for a Dragon Skald. Sea Legs might actually be good for once, but the coolest part to me is Glorious Epic allowing you to act as your teammate's hype man:
At 3rd level, a dragon skald learns how to truly extol the virtues and prowess of the heroic figures in his epic tales. By performing for 10 minutes and expending 1 round of raging song, the dragon skald can influence opinions positively towards a heroic subject of the dragon skald's choice. If the subject of the epic attempts a Diplomacy or Intimidate check against anyone who listened to the full performance, he receives a circumstance bonus on that check equal to the Will save bonus granted by the dragon skald's inspired rage.
Personally I think skalds are a little more fun than bards because you can do a lot of nifty things with the raging song that are more interesting than straight numerical bonuses.
By the way, totemic skald is incredibly fun for healing if done right. Follow me here:
you gain fast healing equal to the Strength bonus your song provides
I believe you emphasized the wrong portion of the Skald's Vigor feat. I emphasis it like this:
you gain fast healing equal to the Strength bonus your song provides
My reading is that anything that further modifies that bonus (Amplified Rage teamwork feat, Bull Totem, etc) does not change the amount of fast healing you get.
There are also two ways to read what the strength bonus is. It is the bonus given to the strength attribute (+2) or the bonus from said increase (+1)? I do not know what the intended value was. I believe that the lower value is much more in line with other abilities that give fast healing, so that is what I use both as a player and GM. It is also the value listed on Table 1-10 for Inspired Rage.
Expect table variation until such time as there is an FAQ or errata covering this.
My idea is to demoralize foes or help my friends in my round and using bodyguard + combat reflexes in enemy round, for this i want to pick 1 lv in cavalier for the tactician ability. In my round i can start a song, guide my allies or demoralize enemies.
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Now you roughly double the amount of fast healing you can do, reaching fast healing 12 at 16th. I believe there are more things you can do
Yes, there are more things you can do;
This faintly glowing bowstring is twined from the hair of a lillend. When strung on a bow, a tuned bowstring also functions as a masterwork stringed instrument, granting the wielder an enhancement bonus on Performance (string) checks equal to the bow's enhancement bonus (if any). A tuned bowstring produces a perfect note with every arrow fired by its wielder, allowing a character with the bardic performance class feature to maintain a performance in combat without expending rounds of bardic performance as long as she fires at least one arrow each round. Activating a bardic performance or switching to a different performance still costs a round of bardic performance.
Combine with Greater Skald's Vigor and any of various means of generating ammunition and you've got unlimited full heals for the entire party.
Bret, the +1 in the chart you are referring to is for the will saves. Note that it goes up every 4 levels while the str/con bonus is slower. It's really obvious at level 8 where it's +3 to will and +4 to str and con, because that bonus would give a +2 modifier. And "modifier" is the term for that. A bonus is the amount to the actual score. The score grants a modifier. If the feat was meant to be based on the modifier it would have used that term.
As for if the totemic ability counts as part of the song, it could be debated but:
"Song of the Beast (Su): The totemic skald grants the animal focus abilities of his totem animal (as the hunter's animal focus ability) to all allies affected by his raging song."
I would say the bonus is being provided by the song by the most likely natural language interpretation of the text, as you provide the bonus with a song and it stops when your song stops. In a similar thought, your interpretation would also imply this bonus doesn't last with an effect like lingering song.
I can agree that it is more fast healing than most classes can access, but it is still just fast healing. Even fast healing 4 at level 3 isn't going to keep you alive for more than an extra round against anything dangerous that's trying to hit you, and while the healing scales with level, the incoming damage will scale even faster. The point is that just because something is the strongest at what it does, that doesn't mean it's necessarily overpowered for doing it.