Hey guys!
my party is going up against a copper ancient dragon in a few days, and our DM is not simple as it is - he will try to TPK us any way he can.
After reading a-bit i saw a suggestion to do Dex damage as a means to render him motionless, which should allow us to kill him fast.
What are the best ways, or any ways for that matter that you can suggest for us to cause Dex damage?
thank you!
The pressure points ninja trick could work quite well for that. If that's not an option, then cockatrice grit. Lots of cockatrice grit.
Cockatrice Grit is the classic cheesy dragon killer.
Items:
Various Poisons
Entangling gives a penalty.
Spells:
Fleshworm infestation
Bestow curse
Touch of gracelessness
Excruciating deformation
Rain of frogs
Vengeful stinger
Calcific touch
Water of maddening
This item seems AMAZING, and honestly, if we could get 5-6 of those and use them all in one round, that would have been AWESOME!
but - Cockatrice Grit isn't in the books the DM chose for us (for WotW)
so ill have to resort to other ways.
@Philo Pharynx
Thank you!!! will all of those stack?
There are poisons that do it, but the save DCs probably aren't high enough to phase the dragon.
Yup, just looked it up. Ancient Copper has +20 Fort, and the CRB poisons that due Dex damage top out at DC 18.
Maybe possible with lots of debuffing, but still very unlikely.
There are also some Outsiders (Daemons, Demons, Devils, etc.) that have poisons or other effects that do Dexterity damage or drain. Some of them are probably outside your ability to summon/bind, though (like CR 27 Xoveron with his DC 40 poison that does D6 Dex drain).
Saldiven wrote:
There are also some Outsiders (Daemons, Demons, Devils, etc.) that have poisons or other effects that do Dexterity damage or drain. Some of them are probably outside your ability to summon/bind, though (like CR 27 Xoveron with his DC 40 poison that does D6 Dex drain).
yeahhhhhhhhhhhh lol i wish we could get that guy.
Qayinisorouse wrote: Saldiven wrote:
There are also some Outsiders (Daemons, Demons, Devils, etc.) that have poisons or other effects that do Dexterity damage or drain. Some of them are probably outside your ability to summon/bind, though (like CR 27 Xoveron with his DC 40 poison that does D6 Dex drain).
yeahhhhhhhhhhhh lol i wish we could get that guy. Yeah, I think pretty much any dragon would be terrified of him.
Calcific touch is great if you can risk getting in the touch range. Enervation would also do the trick.
Qayinisorouse wrote: This item seems AMAZING, and honestly, if we could get 5-6 of those and use them all in one round, that would have been AWESOME!
but - Cockatrice Grit isn't in the books the DM chose for us (for WotW)
so ill have to resort to other ways.
@Philo Pharynx
Thank you!!! will all of those stack?
Dex damage is a good idea if you can make it work, but against an Ancient Copper Dragon, I'd make sure you had a way to get True Seeing. Otherwise, you may find you've blown your most powerful attacks on a Programmed Image.
It won't do dex damage, but their touch AC is really low, so you could throw nets at him, which will make him easier to hit and limit his actions a bitthat same reason guns would be a good way to deal with him, if they are allowed, even without proficiency you should be able to hit a touch AC of 8.
If you have someone with a really good intimidate you might be able to stick shaken on him by demoralizing, but it would be something like a DC 40 to make it work.
Opium is silly effective.
tanglefoot and tangle burn bags, are useful. It'll break but still have some form of effect
I like calcific touch, but the dragon has spell resistance, so it's not so sure to work.
Aren't all dragons immune to poisons?? Although Opium sounds like an awesome solution. Get it so stoned it can't function lol.
CannibalKitten wrote: Aren't all dragons immune to poisons?? Although Opium sounds like an awesome solution. Get it so stoned it can't function lol. The standard dragon immunities are only to sleep and paralysis. Each individual dragon species usually has additional immunities. Coppers, for example, are also immune to acid.
Though, while not inherently immune to poisons, they do tend to have really fat Fort saves.
Techicnally... Pathfinder never says if drugs are poison or diesease, or neither.
the game doesn't specify at all--They're listed in afflications, which cover poisons, dieseases, and other stuff. So its up to your GM in the end. Because of how they work I really woudln't call them poisons though. (for purposes of poison use, immunity etc)
Drugs auto effectx as well, if your properly exposed. The fort saved in opium is ONLY for denying addiction (the diesease). They have several different methods of exposure as well.
Poisons follow very specific types and exposure ways, and require fort saves to resist all of it. Drugs opporate rather differently than poisons.
The benefical and negatie effects happen immediately on exposure. So... get it in its mouth, rub it in a wound, throw it on it's nose so it breaths it in. Something like that.
So.. expose they get wis and dex damage in exchange for pretty low benefit, and possibly addicted to opium..
could you imagine addicting ad ragon.. and convincing it to be your ally.. in exchange for more opium?
Not the solution your GM forsaw. I can tell you from experience in a different situation.
Oh. for the record.. Poison Sand Tube is WONDERFUL for this if your gm finds it usuable in it. (i.e. if your gm thinks its poison)
Frankly speaking.. its far more beneficial (and dangerous for you as well) if they're not counted as poisons. They're far harder to use, but far less immune things. It makes a fun extra trick for poison immune if your a poison based guy.
My toxicant carries a lot of drugs (some for powering up allies in weird ways, and some for damaging baddies).
Saldiven wrote: There are poisons that do it, but the save DCs probably aren't high enough to phase the dragon.
Yup, just looked it up. Ancient Copper has +20 Fort, and the CRB poisons that due Dex damage top out at DC 18.
So use multiple doses. Either hit him with a storm of arrows ("... all right, we'll fight in the shade") or get an alchemist to prepare something special.
For example, the Concentrate Poison discovery allows you to add +2 DC to the poison by doubling the amount of poison used. Get 32 doses of poison, concentrate them all, and you'll end up with +10 to the DC. Alternatively, use Poison Conversion to make 31 doses of an injury poison into an inhaled poison (which automatically stack with themselves) and set them all aflame with a +60 DC.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
What level is the party?
I once saw a very high level witch neutralize an ancient dragon with the Forced Reincarnation hex. The suddenly young adult dragon fled from the party.
Orfamay Quest wrote: So use multiple doses. Either hit him with a storm of arrows ("... all right, we'll fight in the shade") or get an alchemist to prepare something special. Unfortunately that doesn't work. The rules for stacking poison are a bit arcane, because they're different for every delivery vector. But for injury and contact poisons, you can't deliver multiple doses at once. And only once someone has poison in him (i.e. not made his save) can you start adding to the DC. The trick is really to get that first one in, after that you can start piling up.
Orfamay Quest wrote: Saldiven wrote: There are poisons that do it, but the save DCs probably aren't high enough to phase the dragon.
Yup, just looked it up. Ancient Copper has +20 Fort, and the CRB poisons that due Dex damage top out at DC 18.
So use multiple doses. Either hit him with a storm of arrows ("... all right, we'll fight in the shade") or get an alchemist to prepare something special.
For example, the Concentrate Poison discovery allows you to add +2 DC to the poison by doubling the amount of poison used. Get 32 doses of poison, concentrate them all, and you'll end up with +10 to the DC. Alternatively, use Poison Conversion to make 31 doses of an injury poison into an inhaled poison (which automatically stack with themselves) and set them all aflame with a +60 DC. Those seem to have potential.
Though, I am absolutely certain there is a creature out there that does Dex damage that could probably help out if the party could summon it. I remember using it against my party a few months ago, and it had our poor Dex based Ninja crapping his pants (at 11th level). I need to dig it back up....
Ascalaphus wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: So use multiple doses. Either hit him with a storm of arrows ("... all right, we'll fight in the shade") or get an alchemist to prepare something special. Unfortunately that doesn't work. The rules for stacking poison are a bit arcane, because they're different for every delivery vector. But for injury and contact poisons, you can't deliver multiple doses at once. No, you can't deliver multiple doses at once with a single weapon. "Applied contact poisons and injury poisons cannot inflict more than one dose of poison per weapon at a time (because the poison on the weapon only lasts for one successful attack before it wears off)"
Hit him with 200 arrows and he takes 200 doses, for a +400 DC.
If you have an alchemist, or rogue with the discover, then poison conversion converting the poison of choice to inhale allows for stacking to increase DC.
but thats really one of the only ways.
soo expensive though.
Well you can stack ingested as well if I remember off hand, if you wanted to get a sacraficial lamb covered ingested poison..
Drow poison is the most populr conversion poison
Type poison (injury); Save Fortitude DC 13
Frequency 1/minute for 2 minutes
Initial Effect unconsciousness for 1 minute; Secondary Effect unconsciousness for 2d4 hours; Cure 1 save
i realized.. it says unconscious not sleep.. so i guess dragons can be drow poisoned... so if you have apoisoner lover connection..
Throw em 1000 gold to craft a ton of converted inhaled drow poison, pile them in to a bottle (i've got a jar of dirt i've got a jar of dirt) and smash it over the dragon's face for a fairly good DC
It would be nice to know the level of your party and your party make, Polar Ray is a nice spell for fighting dragons at higher levels.
Offer the dragon a lot of wine and get him drunk. That's how Susano-o did it with Yamata-no-Orochi.
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