I'm trying to get a feel for how the Rogue: Unchained stacks up when compared to other sneak attack classes. Specifically I'm comparing the following:
Rogue: Unchained
Ninja: Unchained
Slayer
Spell-Less Ranger
Considerations:
1) Unchained variants are allowed archetypes per the normal version of the class.
2) Low magic environment, so no builds which require specific magic equipment
3) Only single class builds
4) Campaign is hard capped at level 13, so "really pulling ahead at level 16" is something of a moot point in this comparison.
With these considerations / limitations in mind, can the group help to take a look at these classes and lets get a feel for the differences between them and why one would be a "better" class over another? I am a DM (since about 1995) and want to get a good feel for if any of these classes are really overshadowing the others and thus making them non-viable. Ive heard alot of folks stating the rogue is now a substandard class, and that is what I'm trying to size up. Are these four classes (and only these four) reasonably well balanced against each other?
For example: When I was first looking at them I noticed the Ninja is alot more combat oriented than the rogue, with the rogue possessing more trap finding and evasion (general adventuring) skills.
Thanks in advance for any help / suggestions / etc.
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First of all, are you open to other Suggestions, such as the two archetypes for Warpriest that offer sneak attack?
Cult Leader
Mantis Zealot
Secondly, should we assume anything about party composition? After all, you can safely rely more on using sneak attack if you have a consistent party with a character designed to get where they are needed to flank. Without being able to rely on such a character, then I would say that classes, such as Slayer, that do not need to rely on sneak attack for their damage are better overall.
Some other Sneak Attack archetypes for single-class Sneak Attacking:
Vivisectionist Alchemist (full progression Sneak Attack -- can be a real beast, and some people still favor this over even Unchained Rogue)
Greensting Slayer Magus (full progression Sneak Attack when you spend Arcane Points; however, this archetype is just bad)
Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor (Sneak Attack almost like Slayer but offset 1 level later, and also gets Slayer's Studied Target class feature and Slayer Talents -- haven't tried it myself, but seems pretty good)
Anything VMC Rogue (half-speed Sneak Attack progression starting at 7th level -- not bad, but eats 5 feats, of which the last 2 are in exchange for Rogue abilities that won't be all that great at high levels)
Snakebite Striker Brawler (only slight Sneak Attack -- I see this mostly recommended for dips rather than single-classing, for which it doesn't seem all that great)
Sandman Bard (only slight Sneak Attack -- this isn't primarily what you use this archetype for)
Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat (add +1d6 Sneak Attack to a class/archetype that has less than full-progression Sneak Attack, but you have to have 1 rank of Sneak Attack before you can take this feat -- usually not used for single-classing, though)
Unchained Rogue is good and balanced. It has glaring issues that CAN be solved - mostly, the requirement of taking TWF and Twist Away as feats.
Unchained Ninja, to me, misses the mark entirely. I don't like that product. It provides more damage to the Ninja where damage was never truly an issue. Not my favorite 3PP.
Slayer is good and balanced. Favors combat more than the Rogue (basically because it has access to the higher output STR builds and more stable damage), but pays for it in worse skills and imperfect defenses.
While I used to like the Spell-Less Ranger - I think that Slayer has made it pretty obsolete.
On the other sneak attack archetypes:
- Alchemist has Vivisectionist and Eldritch Poisoner. I think Vivisectionist is a bit too powerful for its own good. Eldritch Poisoner is sorely missing poison utilities like faster application. None of them is strictly better than the UnRogue.
- Sandman Bard is super fun. Different from the UnRogue.
- Nature's Fang Druid only has 1 sneak attack dice so it probably doesn't count.
- Monk of the Mantis has marked weaknesses over other Monks, but it's not terrible.
- Bushwhacker Gunslinger is a niche archetype and shouldn't be paid much more attention.
- Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor is pretty fun and easy, though Judgement is probably a more rewarding skill overall.
- Greensting Magus is nothing to phone home about.
- Snakebite Striker Brawler is a simplified version of the Brawler with focus on simple combat. Not necessarily comparable to Brawlers or UnRogues, though it can be said to be more defensive than UnRogues and more offensive than Brawlers, but not more offensive than the former nor more defensive than the latter.
- Cult Leader and Mantis Zealot Warpriests are both well and balanced for a Warpriest.
First of all, are you open to other Suggestions, such as the two archetypes for Warpriest that offer sneak attack?
Cult Leader
Mantis ZealotSecondly, should we assume anything about party composition? After all, you can safely rely more on using sneak attack if you have a consistent party with a character designed to get where they are needed to flank. Without being able to rely on such a character, then I would say that classes, such as Slayer, that do not need to rely on sneak attack for their damage are better overall.
I'm keeping it simple. Just the four classes in question, and it is assumed that this is a classic four man team with a cleric, mage, warrior type, and a sneak attack class. It is also assumed that your sneak attacker will be working with the warrior type for flanking, etc.
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Slayer probably beats Unchained Rogue in that composition.
I'd agree with them.
I'm trying to get a feel for how the Rogue: Unchained stacks up when compared to other sneak attack classes. Specifically I'm comparing the following:
Thanks for providing details and links!
With these considerations / limitations in mind, can the group help to take a look at these classes and lets get a feel for the differences between them and why one would be a "better" class over another?
I've been playing an Unchained Rogue in a campaign, now level 6. It's a homebrew campaign setting, with slightly different racial bonuses, and a few other changes, but it's close enough to "core" that it makes a good case study. Our party is: UnRogue, Barbarian, Cleric, and Wizard. I'm a more experienced player than the Barbarian, and through careful character building (two archetypes, unusual weapon selection, etc.), close attention to tactics during combat, and conscious teamwork, I'm able to contribute about as much to a fight as the no-frills Barbarian does. The UnRogue is definitely weaker in combat than the purely martial classes, but not so much that it's no fun to play.
The UnNinja is definitely more powerful in combat than the UnRogue. Dispatchment is stronger than Debilitating Injury on an individual level. (Debilitating Injury helps your party members more, but the to-hit bonus from Dispatchment really fills in a gap for the 2/3 base hit martial character.) Also, Ki Pool is very powerful (extra attacks! extra movement!) and many Ninja Tricks using Ki Pool are more powerful than the standard Rogue Talents.
The Slayer is more powerful in combat than either of the previous classes. It will simply deal more damage than either, and more consistently.
I have no experience with the Spell-less Ranger. It definitely reads powerful. Since it's only minimally sneak attack based, it wouldn't be my first choice as a "sneak attack character".
My top picks for style and effectiveness, UnNinja or Slayer.
I am a DM (since about 1995) and want to get a good feel for if any of these classes are really overshadowing the others and thus making them non-viable.
I think they're all viable (playable, able to contribute) but the two Un-Classes will definitely take some work to make them keep up.
Ive heard alot of folks stating the rogue is now a substandard class, and that is what I'm trying to size up.
The UnRogue is stronger and less frustrating than the core version, but I would still call it "substandard" if simply measured by combat effectiveness.
Why UnNinja and no love for Ninja?
Unchained Rogue is good and balanced. It has glaring issues that CAN be solved - mostly, the requirement of taking TWF and Twist Away as feats.
Yeah, i've been a big fan of the Unrogue since it came out, but I'm reading the forums with everyone complaining about it and thought I'd see how it stacks up vs other sneak attack classes we are using in the campaign.
Unchained Ninja, to me, misses the mark entirely. I don't like that product. It provides more damage to the Ninja where damage was never truly an issue. Not my favorite 3PP.
What about the Ninja as a alternative class (not the Unchained 3pp version)?
Slayer is good and balanced. Favors combat more than the Rogue (basically because it has access to the higher output STR builds and more stable damage), but pays for it in worse skills and imperfect defenses.
Yeah, I was looking at the Slayer and realized if your playing in a group with poor group / team tactics the slayer would be a good choice for more predictable DPR output, while still getting most of the Rogue and Ninja special abilities.
While I used to like the Spell-Less Ranger - I think that Slayer has made it pretty obsolete.
Largely agree, with two exceptions. Due to the animal companions of the Spell-Less Ranger they are never without a flanking / SA partner. As such from a purely SA damage based class I would argue the SLR is possibly a stronger fit for the role. Of course if you like rangers but simply arent keen on them casting spells, this might be a really good fit.
On the other sneak attack archetypes:
<snip> and Mantis Zealot Warpriests are both well and balanced for a Warpriest.
Agreed, this one I was a big fan of actually. Great balance, and solid background story behind the class.
Why UnNinja and no love for Ninja?
Just keeping the comparison consistent. No real bias there, although I think the Ninja is more balanced than the core Rogue because it had the benefit of an additional decade of D20 system development than the Rogue.
Thus I think it likely more fair to compare the Ninja to the UnRogue in this comparison.
1. I never noticed much complaints about the UnRogue. There were some valid complaints about the UnBarb and some misinformed complaints about the UnMonk (which have been all but quelled at this point).
2. Ninja as a base class is strictly worse than UnNinja because the UnNinja is the same, but with more stuff. But my point is that it's the wrong "more stuff". The issues the Ninja has are:
- Bad AC. Weapon Finesse is an option for sure (historically, kama are the typical ninja weapons), but you give up on Katanas which are a big part of the fantasy imagery. Plus there's the fact that the also historical kusarigama cannot be properly used with finesse since one of its modes is not applicable (the ball-and-chain part). The UnNinja has no solution to this other than saying "forget Katana". Debilitating Injury helped the UnRogue in this aspect to apply attack penalties. Style Strikes MAY help the UnNinja with AC - Defensive Spin is pretty nice - but if you are landing attacks on the enemy it means you probably are invisible and sneak attacking. The problem for the Ninja/UnNinja is defense against enemies that are aware of it.
- The worst saves in the game bar none. So there are three classes with the terrible, terrible "only good Reflex saves" deal. There's Rogues, who can take Twist Away at level 2 to pretend they have good Fort saves and have enough feats to get Iron Will; there're Swashbucklers, who get the consolation prize of Charmed Life to avoid being the class with the worst saves in the game; and finally, there are Ninjas, who get Evasion so late that Twist Away is not really an option for most of the game. UnNinja does nothing to solve this.
- Sustained Sneak Attack reliance. The UnRogue dealt with this with Debilitating Injury - you just need to get one Sneak in per target to decimate their defense, grant yourself a ton of accuracy, and deal respectable damage (though not stellar, after all you are no Slayer). The Ninja has to be invisible to deal sneak attack all day or have its damage fall to the wayside.
That being said, the Ninja is the mother of all glass cannons. TWF Wakizashi Ninja with the Kamikaze + Invisible Blade tricks can outpace a damned Kensai Magus in damage.
But that's still a one-trick pony. Fight an Elemental and your damage goes down hard. If it's a Fire Elemental with a burning aura, you might kill yourself with Kamikaze.
The class simply doesn't have too much breadth of builds though.
If I created my own UnNinja, it would probably come with a selection of Style Strikes that can be done on Sneak Attacks to grant utility, Maneuver Mastery (full BAB for maneuvers) and the baseline ability to spend ki to reroll saves.
3. I stand corrected regarding the Spell-Less Ranger. (That being said, a Slayer can also get an animal companion with a 2 feat investment, 3 for full level scaling).