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Looking over the new Agathiel archetype in the Spymaster book, I'm confused about how this is supposed to work with player equipment. At 4th level it gets a kind of wildshape (so I would assume equipment disappears when the vigilante enters that form) but before then does the vigilante just roam around like Puss-in-boots as an animal wearing clothes and using weapons? Is that true AFTER 4th level?
It's a neat idea for an archetype, so I'd love to see people's thoughts.
...You're probably gonna have to wait til Wednesday for official release date if you want more folks with the book to know more about the archetype to share their opinions or answer your questions.
Also worth noting that you do get Aspect of the Beast at level 2 or so, so if you take that archetype you're probably going to be using natural weapons for levels 2 and 3 anyways. Of course, when you hit level 4 and go Wildshape the Aspect of the Beast kinda loses its usefulness since you don't get to keep natural weapons through a Polymorph and you only have it in Vig form.
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Also worth noting that you do get Aspect of the Beast at level 2 or so, so if you take that archetype you're probably going to be using natural weapons for levels 2 and 3 anyways. Of course, when you hit level 4 and go Wildshape the Aspect of the Beast kinda loses its usefulness since you don't get to keep natural weapons through a Polymorph and you only have it in Vig form.
I think the intent is for Aspect of the Beast to function WHILE the wildshape is active, since you only get the feat in vigilante identity, and you are wildshaped in your vigilante identity after level 4. So you wildshape, then get the feat, rather than have the feat, then wildshape and lose the benefit.
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Looking over the new Agathiel archetype in the Spymaster book, I'm confused about how this is supposed to work with player equipment. At 4th level it gets a kind of wildshape (so I would assume equipment disappears when the vigilante enters that form) but before then does the vigilante just roam around like Puss-in-boots as an animal wearing clothes and using weapons? Is that true AFTER 4th level?
The way I read it from Level 1-3 you might put on a mask of that animal and wear clothes in the pelt of that animal to make you look that that animal rather than turning into one. After 4th you turn into an animal but keep all equipment.
The thing that makes me curious is the beast shape effects. It doesn't state that we get an ability from that animal on the beast shape list. It says "the vigilante can select two abilities provided by beast shape" Does that mean I can turn into a dog with grab and trip or a leopard who can fly?
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Looking over the new Agathiel archetype in the Spymaster book, I'm confused about how this is supposed to work with player equipment. At 4th level it gets a kind of wildshape (so I would assume equipment disappears when the vigilante enters that form) but before then does the vigilante just roam around like Puss-in-boots as an animal wearing clothes and using weapons? Is that true AFTER 4th level?The way I read it from Level 1-3 you might put on a mask of that animal and wear clothes in the pelt of that animal to make you look that that animal rather than turning into one. After 4th you turn into an animal but keep all equipment.
The thing that makes me curious is the beast shape effects. It doesn't state that we get an ability from that animal on the beast shape list. It says "the vigilante can select two abilities provided by beast shape" Does that mean I can turn into a dog with grab and trip or a leopard who can fly?
They have to be applicable choices for the creature you choose, you are just limited to how many options you get.
At least that is the way that I read it.
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They have to be applicable choices for the creature you choose, you are just limited to how many options you get.
At least that is the way that I read it.
I'd Probably rule it that way too. I do dislike the limitations of only small and medium creatures if only because the Agathion races we have been given are Fox, Lion and Avian and you can't make a lion Agathiel.
I'd say best animal given the restrictions might be leopard as you would at least get a chance to use all the beast shape ability points.
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I'd say best animal given the restrictions might be leopard as you would at least get a chance to use all the beast shape ability points.
From a pure min max point of view, Deinonychus is actually better, 5 attacks + pounce verses 3 attacks + pounce + rake.
Of course that doesn't mean Deinonychus is the best shape, a wolf style wolf might be especially powerful with the Vital Punishment talent.
Do you get the natural attacks of the creature?
If so, what does selecting "Claws of the Beast" for "Agathion Blessing" do after 4th level?
Since it says, "as appropriate to his animal identity, you wouldn't gain extra natural attacks.
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Do you get the natural attacks of the creature?
If so, what does selecting "Claws of the Beast" for "Agathion Blessing" do after 4th level?
Since it says, "as appropriate to his animal identity, you wouldn't gain extra natural attacks.
Beginning at 4th level, when an agathiel assumes his vigilante identity, he physically transforms into an animal, though he always retains unusual traits that set him apart from ordinary animals, as if using beast shape I, except the vigilante gains no ability adjustments and can select only a single animal ability from those listed in the spell's description.
The ability says nothing about not gaining the natural attacks, simply that you do not gain any ability adjustments (+str/dex and +Natural armor) and that you only get a single animal ability (flight, scent, etc.) you still receive all the natural attacks.
Admittedly the aspect of the beast part is fairly confusing, but it kicks in before the bestial identity psudeo-wildshape does.
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Do you get the natural attacks of the creature?
If so, what does selecting "Claws of the Beast" for "Agathion Blessing" do after 4th level?
Since it says, "as appropriate to his animal identity, you wouldn't gain extra natural attacks.
Depending on beast form the damage from the claws of the beast might actually increase the base damage. 1d8 bite is better than most animals of that size
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I love the archetype but I am also kinda confused.
- Does the vigilante actually take the form of an animal?
- At which point does the Vigilante "become" an animal?
- Is he stuck with the original animal of choice at lvl 1 or can it be changed at a later point?
- Would a Agathiel vigilante with Many Guises possibly be able to change into different animals?
- Does the vigilante always gain the -10 to disguise?
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It doesn't really make any sense to me for the vigilante to be stuck with the single animal they picked at the start considering that you can get magical beast abilities at later levels; the mundane animal you pick at first level isn't going to have any of the abilities that you gain access to at later levels.
The alternative is that the archetype is supposed to work like the Beastmorph Alchemist, in that regardless of what animal you choose to emulate you can pick up the more supernatural abilities anyways. This opens up a lot of options that would otherwise be non-viable (finally, a bear that doesn't suck) so I'd be pretty happy if that was the case.
I would like to believe that isn't the way it's supposed to work, because that would be incredibly awkward in PFS and even more awkward outside of it.
Besides, if you're going with the ruling that would necessitate retraining then I'm not entirely sure that you could retrain into a magical beast anyways; you never gain the ability to change into a magical beast, you simply gain the ability to take traits that only a magical beast has. I feel like the explanation that makes sense is that you're supposed to become a progressively more supernatural version of the animal you originally chose to emulate, ergo at 12th level you can choose to be a wolf with blindsense rather than the usual low-light vision.
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You could always just select a puma. I mean, in addition to usual cat abilities, you can also fly.
You could always just select a puma. I mean, in addition to usual cat abilities, you can also fly.
why does this animal have like ten thousand different names it was always called a mountain lion where i grew up
Hi all.
Sorry to revisit this topic but I've only recently checked out the Spymasters Handbook and have some questions about the Agathiel.
It looks like an awesome archetype that I'd love to use but am confused about how certain things would work.
1)For one, level 1-3 of your Besital Identity, how would that work? Do you dress up as some kind of animal till level 4 when you can change into it?
2)The -10 you get in Disguise, how does that interact with Seamless Guise? Does it mean you only have a +10 instad of the +20?
3)At level 4 you can change into the animal but your armour and equipment doesn't meld into the form but rather changes shape to fit the form except things that require hands. So does that mean your chain armour now looks like chain armour fitted for your wolf form? Does your animal form now have a cloak if you're wearing a cloak? Where do your weapons go, are they sheathed on your flank as a dog?
I ask these beacuse if I wanted to play an Agathiel Vigilante in Hell's Rebels for example, could I play one that is an elf but wanders around the city as a dog. Then when I need to, be able to lure some Thrune guards into an alleyway and then walk through a shadow and change into my elven Vigilante persona and open a can of whup ass on these guys and then change back into a dog and walk out the alley again. That kinda thing.
I think that's basically it regarding my questions.
Thanks a bunch.
NECROMANCE!
... No, but seriously, if it doesn't allow for abilities not normally had by the creature, it's a really terrible archtype.
On a wolf, for example, your options are maxed out at level 12, meaning the 16th level ability does literally nothing.