I was recently wondering what happens if you have a readied action with a trigger on an event that provokes an AOO. The rules do not seem too clear to me about what order things should happen in. What if there are multiple AOOs/readied actions triggered from the same event?
Sections on AOOs and Readied Actions:
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
I am mostly curious about the ordering since some of the readied actions/AOOs could invalidate the ability of the others to occur if they happen first. Examples would be things like using pushing assault to move the target out of range or taking a readied total defense action in response to a being attacked by a provoking combat maneuver removing the ability to take the AOO if it happens first.
If Event A is being responded to by a readied action and Event A also provokes an attack of opportunity, the readied action does first.
If the readied action invalidates Event A, Event A never happens so it cannot provoke an Attack of AoO.
Its better to think of an Attack of Opportunity as a consequence of certain actions, wheras Readied actions are in preparation for certain actions and naturally come first.
However, you have to be certain of whether the readied action actually invalidates the action or prevents it.
As an example, a counterspell is a readied action that would prevent the casting of a specific spell, but not prevent the casting of the spell itself, which provokes attacks of opportunity.
If Event A is being responded to by a readied action and Event A also provokes an attack of opportunity, the readied action does first.
If the readied action invalidates Event A, Event A never happens so it cannot provoke an Attack of AoO.
Its better to think of an Attack of Opportunity as a consequence of certain actions, wheras Readied actions are in preparation for certain actions and naturally come first.
However, you have to be certain of whether the readied action actually invalidates the action or prevents it.
As an example, a counterspell is a readied action that would prevent the casting of a specific spell, but not prevent the casting of the spell itself, which provokes attacks of opportunity.
Any rules support for that position?
The fact that a readied action can interrupt the action that it is based on, whereas an attack of opportunity cannot.
I don't think it matters what the results of the triggering action are (being interrupted or prevented), what matters is that the triggering action happened at all. All the triggered actions (readied, AoO) are triggered, and have no regard for one another.
As for order of execution, they're considered to be simultaneous, but you could probably use initiative order.
The fact that a readied action can interrupt the action that it is based on, whereas an attack of opportunity cannot.
AoO interrupt the action as well. If you move (triggering the AoO), you don't complete the move before the AoO, the AoO happens first.
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If Event A is being responded to by a readied action and Event A also provokes an attack of opportunity, the readied action does first.
There's nothing in the CRB that supports this, it's simply your interpretation. It's not wrong, it's just not what the rules say. I do it the same way, but someone else wanting to do it in initiative order also wouldn't be wrong.
They both happen before the triggering event, but there's nothing that says which happens first before the triggering event.
The fact that a readied action can interrupt the action that it is based on, whereas an attack of opportunity cannot.AoO interrupt the action as well. If you move (triggering the AoO), you don't complete the move before the AoO, the AoO happens first.
No, you don't interrupt or invalidate the move action, you just stop it prematurely before the provoking creature reaches his destination. These are different things.
Interruption prevents the action from happening at all.
Just like an attack of opportunity based off of someone standing from prone doesn't prevent the person from standing, whereas a readied action to attack someone that is standing from prone would keep them prone.
I do it the same way, but someone else wanting to do it in initiative order also wouldn't be wrong.
Given that a readied action will reset initiative and an attack of opportunity does not, I would say that using initiative as a method of resolving the order of near simultaneous actions isn't the best way of doing it.
Yeah, the base rules seem like they are very open to interpretation on this one. I was hoping there might be a FAQ somewhere I had missed.
Quintain, the action for triggering an AOO due to movement is "Moving out of a threatened square". You have to resolve the AOO before that happens or you wouldn't be able to make the attack if the person went out of range.
Also, how would a readied action to attack (trip, I assume) someone standing from prone keep them prone? The readied action definitely happens before the triggering event, when they are still prone on the ground.
Yeah, the base rules seem like they are very open to interpretation on this one. I was hoping there might be a FAQ somewhere I had missed.
Quintain, the action for triggering an AOO due to movement is "Moving out of a threatened square". You have to resolve the AOO before that happens or you wouldn't be able to make the attack if the person went out of range.
Also, how would a readied action to attack (trip, I assume) someone standing from prone keep them prone? The readied action definitely happens before the triggering event, when they are still prone on the ground.
Yes, it is moving out of a threatened square, and you get to attack. However, that attack cannot "interrupt" the full move action.
Example. Let's say our enemy moves from out of our reach to moving into our reach and from there one more square in, trying to get past us to attack our friend.
Your attack of opportunity doesn't intrinsically negate that movement. He doesn't "not move". What he does it stop moving where the attack happened. At best, an attack of opportunity can counter an action, or limit an action, if you have some sort of rider on the attack itself, such as re-tripping someone trying to stand up.
An interrupted action prevents that action from happening. Which is solely in the province of readied actions.
The only real time a readied action overlaps an attack of opportunity is when an enemy spellcaster provokes. In that case, the mechanics for readied action and attack of opportunity are the same -- as long as the action is the same.
However, in a readied standard action, you could put things like vital strike or other standard attack action based riders on the readied action that you cannot put on the attack of opportunity -- which is a "non-action" in the action economy list.
As one of the previous posters mentioned, there are multiple ways to resolve the resolution of readied action vs attack of opportunity.
Consistency would be the hallmark of how legitimate a way you resolve it.
You could just as easily have the combatants use competing dexterity checks to determine who goes first, similar as to how simultaneous initiative is resolved.
One note, however. A readied action does reset the initiative
Also, how would a readied action to attack (trip, I assume) someone standing from prone keep them prone?
You wouldn't even need to do a trip action to keep the person prone on a readied action. The readied action intrinsically interrupts (definition: stops the progress of an activity or progress) the action of the enemy -- so, the enemy is prone and performing a move-equivalent action to stand up. The readied action interrupts the move-equivalent action, which results in the person remaining prone.
In the case of the attack of opportunity, the AoO doesn't stop the person from standing, it just allows for a strike due to the enemy leaving itself open to attack. You have to have the trip combat maneuver available to use in order to have the person go from prone to standing to prone again.
There is a lot of overlap when it comes to readied actions that are attacks and attacks of opportunity, granted. But readied actions are far more versatile, and powerful -- allowing things like vital strikes, etc as riders, which aren't possible with attacks of opportunity.
Here's the relevant text that shows readied > AoO
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.[/b]
You will note the lack of text stating that an attack of opportunity "occurs just before the action that triggers it". An AoO is instead resolved immediately upon the provocation occurring.
Pre-emption vs reaction.
An AoO is instead resolved immediately upon the provocation occurring.
AoOs against spellcasters force a concentration check to risk losing the spell from damage, so it clearly can't occur after.
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The fact that a readied action can interrupt the action that it is based on, whereas an attack of opportunity cannot.AoO interrupt the action as well. If you move (triggering the AoO), you don't complete the move before the AoO, the AoO happens first.No, you don't interrupt or invalidate the move action, you just stop it prematurely before the provoking creature reaches his destination. These are different things.
Interruption prevents the action from happening at all.
Just like an attack of opportunity based off of someone standing from prone doesn't prevent the person from standing, whereas a readied action to attack someone that is standing from prone would keep them prone.
Given that a readied action will reset initiative and an attack of opportunity does not, I would say that using initiative as a method of resolving the order of near simultaneous actions isn't the best way of doing it.
I do it the same way, but someone else wanting to do it in initiative order also wouldn't be wrong.
You're putting too much emphasis on the word "interrupt".
Interrupt doesn't mean "prevent". It just means that before the thing that triggered it can continue, the "interrupting" thing has to happen.
Analogy:
Person A: I really like...
Person B: (interrupting) chocolate
Person A: hot dogs
The interrupting doesn't prevent the thing from continuing (though that is possible) it just merely means that the process has been disrupted in some fashion.
Yeah, what Irontruth said.
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
Unless you do something to prevent the prone guy from moving in the future (i.e., hold person or reducing him to less than 0 hp), you can't keep him prone by readying an action: once your readied action has gone off, he continues his move action and stands up anyway. He doesn't lose the action.
You will note the lack of text stating that an attack of opportunity "occurs just before the action that triggers it". An AoO is instead resolved immediately upon the provocation occurring.
Pre-emption vs reaction.
I want to break this down with as few words as possible, kind of a flow chart. Is it your argument that:
Trigger -> Readied action -> trigger no longer exists
is that the crux of your argument? If so, can you back that up with text, that specifically say the trigger is no longer considered to have happened.
You're inferring that the trigger doesn't happen, but that isn't what the text says. The text talks about whether the action continues or not, but it doesn't say that the trigger never happens.
Edit: really, the most interesting aspect of the conversation is the timing of things in regards to consequences, but these would be super outside cases that will probably rarely happen.
For example:
NPC is threatened by two PC's.
PC 1 readies an action to Plane Shift the NPC if he casts a spell.
NPC casts a spell (not defensively).
PC 1 successfully touches, NPC fails save.
Does PC 2 get an attack of opportunity? (subsequently, PC 1 also gets an AoO)
I would say yes, because even though the NPC is being sent to another plane, the attack and spell happen simultaneously.
As a home GM, I might inject some chaos into the mix, saying that PC can attack, but if he hits he needs to make a Will save or go along for the ride (giving them the chance to forgo their AoO if they want).
Again, you're arguing that once the trigger happens, the reaction used can cause the trigger to have never happened. Do you have text for this? Because I don't see anywhere where this is stated.
As for timing, remember that you can't trip someone with an AoO when they stand up from being prone... because the AoO happens BEFORE the action, so when your AoO comes, they're already prone and you can't stack the condition on itself.
Both reaction types happen before the action itself, so they're literally triggered at the same time. Unless you set the Readied Action to trigger off something else, in which case, that something else will not happen at the same time as the trigger for the AoO, so the question is moot.
If the Readied Action and AoO have identical triggers, they are both triggered regardless of the consequences of either. The flow chart looks like:
Trigger -> reactions -> consequences -> continue triggering action if possible
You are arguing that it's:
Trigger -> reaction -> consequences -> check trigger again -> reaction -> consequences -> check trigger again -> action continues if possible
There is no rules basis for this.
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There are a lot of misconceptions in this thread.
Interrupt is a horrible word that means two different things.
One is that it STOPS something.
One is that it happens BEFORE something.
Pathfinder uses both definitions at different times and it is very difficult to know which one they are using without the full context. The definitions are different when dealing with Spellcasting and almost everything else.
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AoOs are not Free Actions. Free Actions do not have hard limits on times they can be done in a round. There are no feats that give you more Free Actions. There is a feat that gives you more AoOs.
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In Pathfinder melee & ranged combat, all these interrupts (AoOs and Readied actions) resolve in the reverse order of declaration. This is often referred to as "First In, Last Out."
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AoOs happen BEFORE the triggering action. That is why the trip lock mentioned above does not work. Someone declares they are standing. The AoO happens, which could in fact be a trip, then once it is completed, the original character stands up. But he would stand up AFTER the AoO, so even if it was a trip, it would not stop him from standing up. It doesn't affect him WHILE he is standing, only before.
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So, in the case of readied actions vs AoOs, the order in which they start is inverse to the order of resolution.
If the AoO triggered the Readied Action, the Readied Action resolves first, then the AoO is resolved. If the Readied Action triggers the AoO, the AoO resolves first and then Readied Action is resolved.
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Spells are COMPLETELY different. They should never be used as the "normal" way for handling AoOs.
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If the same character gets to make the AoO and take the Readied Action on one trigger, who cares what order you go in? Both triggered at the same time, and both can be resolved easy enough.
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Thoughts of "but since he died, the original trigger never happened" are technically true, but don't matter. The actions in the game have to be resolved in some logical order. That would even be true if it were a computer game. Even if it was so fast, you couldn't see it. This is the order that the designers chose.
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Happy Gaming.
The question isn't about AoO triggering off of Readied Actions, it's about when they trigger from the same event.
Interruption prevents the action from happening at all.
So if a spellcaster has his spell counterspelled, he doesn't lose his spell since his action was prevented from occurring?
Just like an attack of opportunity based off of someone standing from prone doesn't prevent the person from standing, whereas a readied action to attack someone that is standing from prone would keep them prone.
A readied action to re-trip an individual when they try to stand is no different than an AoO to do so.
A readied action based on the trigger "after they stand up" could re-trip them, but would occur AFTER the AoO triggered from them standing, and not before.
As pointed out by Komoda, you are using the wrong definition of interrupt for readied actions. Simple example:
I ready an action to attack someone if they move. If I attack them, and don't kill them, does my attack stop them from moving? No, it occurs before they move, but that is all. That is, my attack interrupts their movement, then they get to continue moving if still able to.
The readied action rules further reinforce which definition should be used as noted here:
If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
Clearly if he can continue his action, he was not prevented from taking the action.
Rub-Eta as Komoda also pointed out, AoO's are not free actions. They are a free attack, but that does not make them an "action" as the game defined term.
Spells are COMPLETELY different. They should never be used as the "normal" way for handling AoOs.
Here I disagree. I think they should be handled identically to other AoO's/readied actions.
Triggering action starts.
All AoO's/readied actions based on trigger take place.
Triggering action (if still valid) completes.
And Jason Buhlman, at least at one point in time, agreed with this as shown here. Note that he even includes spellcasting in the same category as movement and standing up - not treating it in any way more special or have specific rules regarding it as those other things.
(I really wish PDT would FAQ or blog on readied actions and AoO's to clear up this frequent discussion of what happens with readied actions, AoO's, invalidated actions as a result of either, and so forth).
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Readied starts when its conditions are met. If these conditions are an action, readied goes before that action starts. Since AoOs are provoked by an action starting, they happen after readied
In other words : action readied on another action that provokes :
1) Provoking action declared : triggers readied. Note that provoking action has not begun yet.
2) Provoking action starts, AoO is resolved before the provoking action is resolved
3) Provoking action resolves
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There is no right answer because it is situational. The GM will have to make a judgement call based the actions involved.
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Key words here are:Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.As writen, AoO is a free action. You can therefore not perform your readied action after your perform an AoO. It does, however, say "anytime before" which points towards it being a legal move to take the readied action, right before the AoO.
As for the provocation of AoO:
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.This means that the provoking happens if the action can be continued (and would provoke an AoO in normal cases). An AoO can not be provoked before you compleat your readied action, as the readied action is performed before the action that triggers it and provokes an AoO.
An attack of opportunity isn't a free action.
It is a free attack.attack =/= action
Attacks of Opportunity
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work.
The rules do not say which one happens first. They both happen before the act is completed. This is a situation that would have to be judged on a case by case basis.
If a character would benefit from one happening before the other I would let him choose which one he wanted to use first.
It's hard to adjudicate, and would depend heavily on the specific situation.
Assuming that it's something like:
A stands up from prone, provoking an attack of opportunity from B. C (a nearby archer) readied an action to shoot A when he stood up.
So your question is basically, who gets to attack first, B or C?
As far as I know there is no rule for how to deal with this.
I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario in my hand where it would make a difference.
If the person making the AoO and the readied action are on the same side I would let resolve it in whatever way they decided was most beneficial to them.
If they are not on the same side...I would probably use a dex check to represent who "got there first".
Readied starts when its conditions are met. If these conditions are an action, readied goes before that action starts. Since AoOs are provoked by an action starting, they happen after readied
In other words : action readied on another action that provokes :
1) Provoking action declared : triggers readied. Note that provoking action has not begun yet.
2) Provoking action starts, AoO is resolved before the provoking action is resolved
3) Provoking action resolves
Let me get this straight... you're saying the timing looks like this:
Readied Action
Provoking action starts
AoO happens
Action continues
Is this your claim? I already see the flaw in this and how you're creating a giant loophole which effectively means Readied Actions are useless for one of their most commonly used triggers.
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EDIT: AoO not being an action could also mean that a Cowering, Dazed, Stunned, Panicked or Paralyzed creature still can perform AoOs (as they're only prohibited from taking actions).
Making a AoO require you to threaten a square.
You threaten a square where you can make a melee attack.Cowering, Dazed, Stunned, Panicked or Paralyzed characters can't take offensive physical actions, so they don't threaten.
Ergo: they can't make AoO.
It's hard to adjudicate, and would depend heavily on the specific situation.
Assuming that it's something like:
A stands up from prone, provoking an attack of opportunity from B. C (a nearby archer) readied an action to shoot A when he stood up.So your question is basically, who gets to attack first, B or C?
Huh? Unequivocally B. As A begins to stand up, they provokes from B. Resolve B's AoO. Assuming they're still capable, A finishes their action and is now standing, thus triggering C's readied action.
In any situation where the triggers are equal, deciding priority between an AoO and a readied action is really no different from deciding priority between two AoOs. How do you resolve that? Do the same thing. Problem solved.
It's hard to adjudicate, and would depend heavily on the specific situation.
Assuming that it's something like:
A stands up from prone, provoking an attack of opportunity from B. C (a nearby archer) readied an action to shoot A when he stood up.So your question is basically, who gets to attack first, B or C?
Huh? Unequivocally B. As A begins to stand up, they provokes from B. Resolve B's AoO. Assuming they're still capable, A finishes their action and is now standing, thus triggering C's readied action.
In any situation where the triggers are equal, deciding priority between an AoO and a readied action is really no different from deciding priority between two AoOs. How do you resolve that? Do the same thing. Problem solved.
Uhhhh no. Sorry, but bad wording on my part doesn't get you out of the conundrum. If you change the trigger to when A attempts to stand up the readied action and AoO trigger are the same. Clearly and obviously that is what I meant.
The problem is that there are no rules or guidelines for regarding AoO with the same trigger (to my knowledge). We know you resolve AoO first in last out. Such as someone attacks without improved unarmed strike, provoking for it. The person making an AoO chooses to use a combat maneuver for which they do not have the improved feat to negate the AoO. The person which had original made the unarmed strike resolves their AoO against the person making the combat maneuver, then the combat maneuver resolves against the unarmed striker, and then the unarmed striker throws his punch. All assuming the actions are still capable of happening. But, when actions have the same trigger we have no guide for which should happen first.
It's hard to adjudicate, and would depend heavily on the specific situation.
Assuming that it's something like:
A stands up from prone, provoking an attack of opportunity from B. C (a nearby archer) readied an action to shoot A when he stood up.So your question is basically, who gets to attack first, B or C?
Huh? Unequivocally B. As A begins to stand up, they provokes from B. Resolve B's AoO. Assuming they're still capable, A finishes their action and is now standing, thus triggering C's readied action.
In any situation where the triggers are equal, deciding priority between an AoO and a readied action is really no different from deciding priority between two AoOs. How do you resolve that? Do the same thing. Problem solved.
Uhhhh no. Sorry, but bad wording on my part doesn't get you out of the conundrum. If you change the trigger to when A attempts to stand up the readied action and AoO trigger are the same. Clearly and obviously that is what I meant.
The problem is that there are no rules or guidelines for regarding AoO with the same trigger (to my knowledge). We know you resolve AoO first in last out. Such as someone attacks without improved unarmed strike, provoking for it. The person making an AoO chooses to use a combat maneuver for which they do not have the improved feat to negate the AoO. The person which had original made the unarmed strike resolves their AoO against the person making the combat maneuver, then the combat maneuver resolves against the unarmed striker, and then the unarmed striker throws his punch. All assuming the actions are still capable of happening. But, when actions have the same trigger we have no guide for which should happen first.
If one character gets two actions based off of one trigger, just let him choose what action he takes first.
If two characters get actions based off of one trigger, just let the one in highest initiative go first.
There is no RAW for either, but it is fair and logical and easy to apply. So until a RAW is made, I think it is your best bet.