Let me begin by apologizing for making a thread about the klar.
I'm wondering how enchantments work with the klar if we are assuming the attack with a klar is with the blade and NOT a shield bash. (I completely disagree that this is true, and don't wish to debate this here.)
There are a few ways I could see this working.
1.) you may enchant the shield as either a weapon or a shield, and at the same time enchant the blade as a weapon. (Have a +2 enchantment to your shield bonus and a +1 enchantment to hit and damage with the blade, for a total cost of 6000 gold.)
2.) you must pick to enchant one part or the other. Both the blade and the shield part cannot be magic at the same time.
3.) You pay for a weapon enhancement on the entire thing and the bonus applies to both the blade and shield bash. Paying 2000 gold to get a +1 klar means you get the +1 regardless of whether you bash or use the blade.
4.) Something I haven't thought of that you believe is true? Let me know.
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Although Klars are a mess, they're still basically treated as spiked shields.
They can be enchanted both as a weapon, and as a shield.
Just pay for each enhancement/ability separately.
Edit: using this character as an example, he wields a +2 Keen, +2 Klar. I paid 18000gp for the +2 Keen part (as a +3 weapon), and 4000gp for the +2 part (as a +2 shield).
Although Klars are a mess, they're still basically treated as spiked shields.
They can be enchanted both as a weapon, and as a shield.
Just pay for each enhancement/ability separately.
So you go with #1?
This is one of those things where no one can really know for sure, but many have strong opinions. So it typically ends in flames.
Fun side note: whether or not the klar attack counts as a shield bash, it can still benefit from the bashing enchant because of its loose language.
This is one of those things where no one can really know for sure, but many have strong opinions. So it typically ends in flames.
Fun side note: whether or not the klar attack counts as a shield bash, it can still benefit from the bashing enchant because of its loose language.
Part of this dovetails into "how do enchantments on shields work pricewise, when you can enchant a shield as both a weapon and a shield?" ...which I have never found a consensus on.
#1.
I'm not sure how it could be anything else. A klar is still a shield.
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
Whether you are enchanting the klar or the spikes the effect is the same - #1
This is one of those things where no one can really know for sure, but many have strong opinions. So it typically ends in flames.
Fun side note: whether or not the klar attack counts as a shield bash, it can still benefit from the bashing enchant because of its loose language.
......maybe. This is why I made this thread. If you believe #1 then bashing doesn't do anything to the damage. But otherwise, I get what you mean. If you just had to pick, which one would you go with?
......maybe. This is why I made this thread. If you believe #1 then bashing doesn't do anything to the damage. But otherwise, I get what you mean. If you just had to pick, which one would you go with?This is one of those things where no one can really know for sure, but many have strong opinions. So it typically ends in flames.
Fun side note: whether or not the klar attack counts as a shield bash, it can still benefit from the bashing enchant because of its loose language.
It doesn't have to be a shield bash to work:
"A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger". The klar still counts as a shield, so the klar does damage as if it were two sizes larger.
Ahh, I'm realizing how poor my wording is. #1 was meant to imply that you enchant the blade and the shield bit as if they were two different items. You could have a +1 flaming klar blade and a +1 frost spiked shield done to the same klar.
I think you guys would agree this is not the case.
So, if you wanted to get ridiculous, you could argue that you could enchant the blade, the light shield and the armor spike all as different weapons.
I was hoping that even if someone thought an attack with a klar was not a shield bash, you could argue with 100% confidence that the basing enchantment would make it dead 2d6. Problem is, if you believe the blade is a different item for the purpose of enchantments then this is not the case.
I was hoping that even if someone thought an attack with a klar was not a shield bash, you could argue with 100% confidence that the basing enchantment would make it dead 2d6. Problem is, if you believe the blade is a different item for the purpose of enchantments then this is not the case.I've never found any justification to show that there is such a thing as a Klar Blade that is different from the Klar or that making melee attacks with the Klar is anything other than a Shield Bash that does 1d6 Slashing. Unless you are Throwing it or performing a Combat Maneuver with it or something, attacking with a Shield is a Shield Bash, and a Klar is a Shield, so attacking with a Klar is a Shield Bash.
The suggestion that there is some other way of attacking with a Klar proposes some whole new way of attacking with a shield that serves no purpose except to nerf the Klar, and while I have seen that often argued, I have never seen anyone support that with rules. The best argument I've heard is no other Shield that does Slashing Damage on a Shield Bash, but being unique doesn't make something illegal. Just as unique would be if the Klar is the only Shield you make melee attacks with that is not a Shield Bash!
And even were that the case, as Melkiador pointed out here and I have on other threads, the Bashing enchantment enhances all the damage done by the shield, not just the Shield Bash Damage.
But I was looking to aviod table variance. I didn't find a solution here. I agree that it is frustrating and a little mind boggling that there is another side to this argument, but that doesn't make it any less popular for people to believe that a klar is not a shield bash.
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Ahh, I'm realizing how poor my wording is. #1 was meant to imply that you enchant the blade and the shield bit as if they were two different items. You could have a +1 flaming klar blade and a +1 frost spiked shield done to the same klar.
I think you guys would agree this is not the case.
That possibility never even entered my mind until you explained it just now.
That possibility never even entered my mind until you explained it just now.Ahh, I'm realizing how poor my wording is. #1 was meant to imply that you enchant the blade and the shield bit as if they were two different items. You could have a +1 flaming klar blade and a +1 frost spiked shield done to the same klar.
I think you guys would agree this is not the case.
Cool synergy with spell storing, if you want to hit someone with multiple (or even several with multiple weapons) spells.
AHG, A KLAR THREAD (no apologies. Kowtow to god 10 times for your temerity!~):
A Klar is a weapon that does d6 slashing damage with a blade. It also provides protection as a buckler.
IF you bash with it, it does damage as a light spiked shield.
So, this is telling you that
1) The d6 slashing weapon is separate from bashing with it, because d6 dmg is NOT light spiked shield damage.
2) It counts as a light spiked shield if you choose to bash, instead of using the blade.
3) it's also a shield for enchanting with it.
Ergo,
1) If you enchant it as a weapon, it affects the whole klar at the same time. Because the klar is basically a weapon, with a shield tacked on, not vice versa.
2) If you enchant it as a shield, it only affects the shield portion of it.
3) Bashing only affects the shield portion of it, so has no effect on the normal blade, only when used to bash. You end up with a d6 piercing shield.
So, you can do d6 19-20/x2 slashing damage, or bash for d4 (d6 with Bashing) 20/x2 piercing damage.
Bashing, as a shield enhancement, has no effect on a non-bashing attack, which the default klar attack is.
===============
I firmly believe that any arguments outside this paradigm is wishful thinking and using a rules loophole to try and create a superweapon.
The mere IDEA that a Klar with Bashing does more damage then a large shield makes me laugh. That's a monstrous attempt at a loophole exploit, and no GM in their right mind will agree with it. "Hi, this tiny weapon on a neo-buckler is now as good as a greatsword!" isn't going to fly. I mean, I have no problem with stacking spikes and bashing on large shields for 2-12 20/x2...it's still an inferior weapon because of the threat range. You're making a non-stacking Klar better then a stacking large shield.
And violating all sorts of irreconcilable language between weapons, bashing and other stuff, all on top of it.
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AHG, A KLAR THREAD (no apologies. Kowtow to god 10 times for your temerity!~):
A Klar is a weapon that does d6 slashing damage with a blade. It also provides protection as a buckler.
IF you bash with it, it does damage as a light spiked shield.So, this is telling you that
1) The d6 slashing weapon is separate from bashing with it, because d6 dmg is NOT light spiked shield damage.
2) It counts as a light spiked shield if you choose to bash, instead of using the blade.
3) it's also a shield for enchanting with it.Ergo,
1) If you enchant it as a weapon, it affects the whole klar at the same time. Because the klar is basically a weapon, with a shield tacked on, not vice versa.
2) If you enchant it as a shield, it only affects the shield portion of it.
3) Bashing only affects the shield portion of it, so has no effect on the normal blade, only when used to bash. You end up with a d6 piercing shield.So, you can do d6 19-20/x2 slashing damage, or bash for d4 (d6 with Bashing) 20/x2 piercing damage.
Bashing, as a shield enhancement, has no effect on a non-bashing attack, which the default klar attack is.
===============I firmly believe that any arguments outside this paradigm is wishful thinking and using a rules loophole to try and create a superweapon.
The mere IDEA that a Klar with Bashing does more damage then a large shield makes me laugh. That's a monstrous attempt at a loophole exploit, and no GM in their right mind will agree with it. "Hi, this tiny weapon on a neo-buckler is now as good as a greatsword!" isn't going to fly. I mean, I have no problem with stacking spikes and bashing on large shields for 2-12 20/x2...it's still an inferior weapon because of the threat range. You're making a non-stacking Klar better then a stacking large shield.
And violating all sorts of irreconcilable language between weapons, bashing and other stuff, all on top of it.
I've spotted a true believer!! I don't understand how you can think bashing doesn't affect the 1d6 blade attack, because bashing doesn't say anything about having to be a shield bash.
IF you had said enchanting the shield part as a weapon did nothing to the blade, then no prob. But you clearly believe that enchanting the shield affacts the whole thing. Why the inconsistency?
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AHG, A KLAR THREAD (no apologies. Kowtow to god 10 times for your temerity!~):
A Klar is a weapon that does d6 slashing damage with a blade. It also provides protection as a buckler.
IF you bash with it, it does damage as a light spiked shield.So, this is telling you that
1) The d6 slashing weapon is separate from bashing with it, because d6 dmg is NOT light spiked shield damage.
2) It counts as a light spiked shield if you choose to bash, instead of using the blade.
3) it's also a shield for enchanting with it.Ergo,
1) If you enchant it as a weapon, it affects the whole klar at the same time. Because the klar is basically a weapon, with a shield tacked on, not vice versa.
2) If you enchant it as a shield, it only affects the shield portion of it.
3) Bashing only affects the shield portion of it, so has no effect on the normal blade, only when used to bash. You end up with a d6 piercing shield.So, you can do d6 19-20/x2 slashing damage, or bash for d4 (d6 with Bashing) 20/x2 piercing damage.
Bashing, as a shield enhancement, has no effect on a non-bashing attack, which the default klar attack is.
===============I firmly believe that any arguments outside this paradigm is wishful thinking and using a rules loophole to try and create a superweapon.
The mere IDEA that a Klar with Bashing does more damage then a large shield makes me laugh. That's a monstrous attempt at a loophole exploit, and no GM in their right mind will agree with it. "Hi, this tiny weapon on a neo-buckler is now as good as a greatsword!" isn't going to fly. I mean, I have no problem with stacking spikes and bashing on large shields for 2-12 20/x2...it's still an inferior weapon because of the threat range. You're making a non-stacking Klar better then a stacking large shield.
And violating all sorts of irreconcilable language between weapons, bashing and other stuff, all on top of it.
I'm a DM. I am ok with martials having nice things. I likely won't ever use your interpretation of the klar.
AHG, A KLAR THREAD (no apologies. Kowtow to god 10 times for your temerity!~):
A Klar is a weapon that does d6 slashing damage with a blade. It also provides protection as a buckler.
IF you bash with it, it does damage as a light spiked shield.
You're incorrect on two counts here. The klar is a light shield, not a buckler. And if it was a buckler, you could not bash with it.
(Sighs) Protection as a buckler = +1 AC. Does the Klar provide +2 AC? No. It provides protection as a buckler.
The description specifically says it bashes as a light spiked shield. It does not say it bashes as a Klar...or it would say so, or it would have left the language off ENTIRELY. It didn't. There's a difference.
In short, the Bashing on the shield doesn't affect the Klar's blade because it only affects the SHIELD, and the SHIELD portion is equivalent to a light spiked shield.
The Klar's blade has nothing to do with being a light spiked shield. If it was meant to do d6 slashing damage on a shield bash, it would say so.
It very, very, VERY specifically does NOT say this.
Ergo, the blade attack of the Klar and a shield bash are very separate things. It is the trying to get the Klar weapon damage and apply a shield enhancement to it that is the problem here, NOT the fact that you can't do that. Bash attacks are with shields, and the damage you get when you bash is very specific, and the Klar's description directly tells you what you should do if you choose to bash.
And yes, choosing to bash IS a choice you have to make. That's why they separate the d6 slashing blade attack from a shield bash. They are telling you exactly what to do, and you are attempting to put together what is separate.
To sum it all up: A Klar is ONE item. It has two components. The Klar is a weapon. If enchanted as a weapon, it naturally affects the entire klar, be it the shield portion if used as a weapon, or the blade. The shield portion of it, however, does not affect the weapon portion of it. Shields can take weapon enhancements, but weapons can't take shield enhancements. Ergo, if used as a Klar, Bashing won't apply, it's a shield enhancement, and the Proper use of the Klar is as a weapon. IF used to bash, it's being used as shield-as-weapon, and Bashing would apply...but it would apply to the damage they say to use, light spiked shield, NOT Klar damage.
If you can't see why I believe this, then you also probably think that it does d6 slashing on a bash, when its own description says otherwise, and you ignore the conflict in the rules.
as for the 'melees can't have nice things', house rule away. What you do on your own campaign is fine.
I personally refuse to see the klar as a better weapon then a heavy shield. I also let spikes and Bashing stack for shields. But it's a house rule, I know it, and I believe shields have enough problems being weapons that I don't care. I'm just not going to let Klars be the best all around weapon in the game.
Yo das bier please respond to my previous comment.
Also, guys, please don't debate what a klar is or is not in this thread. You can't change anyone's mind. What we can do is pick a scenario and run with it. Even someone like Scott who disagrees with the scenario I chose completely can still brainstorm its implications.
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I, also, rule that Bashing does nothing for a Klar. I used to wield a +1 Bashing Klar (simply thinking 1d6 => 2d6) until I ran into the controversy. After listening to the arguments I now see multiple reasons why it doesn't work:
1) We know that Bashing and Shield Spikes don't stack*. If a Klar counts as a Light Shield with Armor Shield Spikes**, then Bashing would only increase its damage from 1d3 (that of a Light Shield) to 1d6 (two steps higher). Useful only if you want your slashing potential to equal your bludgeoning potential.
2) I've seen people argue that you should "reverse engineer" the damage from 1d6 to 1d4 (essentially "removing" the Spikes and lowering the damage one step), and then increase it to 1d8. Although I don't subscribe to this idea, it's still more reasonable than 2d6.
3) There's the viewpoint that you can't even enchant a Klar with Bashing (which can only be placed on Light and Heavy Shields to begin with). If your immediate reaction to this is "But the Klar counts as a Light Shield!", then we have to consider whether Spiked Shields are their own items (as is often argued in the "Bashing does stack with Shield Spikes" controversy). If so, then you can't enchant a Spiked Shield with Bashing anyways. If not, then we're back to point #1 above regardless.
4) Consider game design. Having a 2d6 off-hand weapon should be more difficult to acquire than spending 4000gp. Even a Bashing Heavy Shield only deals 1d8 damage. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that 2d6 is the intended end result, on top of all the arguments presented above.
* I say "we" in the majority sense. I recognize there are dissidents that still believe Shield Spikes stack with Bashing. But, as the creator of the FAQ request that asked that very question, to which the PDT responded, I can't see how people can continue to hold out (other than relying simply on denial).
** The Klar has been reprinted 3 times since its introduction in the Inner Sea World Guide. Only in Ultimate Equipment is it referred to as having "armor spikes". In 75% of its publications it's written as having "shield spikes". Since there's no general rule stating that newer sources supercede older ones, I will maintain that the Ultimate Equipment version is in error, and that the other 3 sources are correct.
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I guess it would help if some dev could give us some klarifications.
I guess it would help if some dev could give us some klarifications.
+1 to this guy.
Yo das bier please respond to my previous comment.
Also, guys, please don't debate what a klar is or is not in this thread. You can't change anyone's mind. What we can do is pick a scenario and run with it. Even someone like Scott who disagrees with the scenario I chose completely can still brainstorm its implications.
I'm sorry, Del_Taco, but I don't know how your question can be answered without also addressing the question of what a Klar is.
My answer to your question is that a Klar is a Shield that does 1d6 Slashing Damage when used to Shield Bash. It counts as a Light Shield (with Armor Spikes WTF?!). You can enchant it as a Shield. And you can simultaneously enchant it as a weapon. Because it counts as a Light Shield, one might have a Quickdraw, Throwing Klar. If you wanted to make something out of those Armor Spikes, Armor Spikes are a separate item, and would be enchanted separately as separate weapons. The "Blade" of the Klar is not a separate weapon, nor is a Shield Spike, were you to add one.
I'm wondering... can we be sure bashing wouldn't affect the armor spike damage? It was my impression that the spikes were an "as if" sort of thing that was part of the shield itself.
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Pathfinder Society GMs are supposed to go by the rules as written, whether they like it or not.
Greetings! Pathfinder Society GM, here. I just wanted to clarify that this is not true, on a couple levels.
There is no such thing as "rules as written". Reading is an interpretive activity, English is an ambiguous language, and we're all aware that Pathfinder contains editing errors. Just because a player finds an abusable loophole via an extreme interpretation of the text does not mean that their GM must abide by it.
If anything, especially in PFS, it's wisest if the player expects a conservative ruling. Doing otherwise may mean you simply don't get to play that character. This is a common practice reinforced by GMs, VOs, and Campaign Leadership.
Furthermore, GMs are given explicit permission in the Guide to Organized Play to make their own ruling on ambiguous rules language in order to move on with the game.
I just felt the need to address your comment because it's a viewpoint that frequently arises in forums outside of the PFS Forum, and it's a damaging one to keep promoting.
Pathfinder Society GMs are supposed to go by the rules as written, whether they like it or not.Greetings! Pathfinder Society GM, here. I just wanted to clarify that this is not true, on a couple levels.
There is no such thing as "rules as written". Reading is an interpretive activity, English is an ambiguous language, and we're all aware that Pathfinder contains editing errors. Just because a player finds an abusable loophole via an extreme interpretation of the text does not mean that their GM must abide by it.
If anything, especially in PFS, it's wisest if the player expects a conservative ruling. Doing otherwise may mean you simply don't get to play that character. This is a common practice reinforced by GMs, VOs, and Campaign Leadership.
Furthermore, GMs are given explicit permission in the Guide to Organized Play to make their own ruling on ambiguous rules language in order to move on with the game.
I just felt the need to address your comment because it's a viewpoint that frequently arises in forums outside of the PFS Forum, and it's a damaging one to keep promoting.
Some would disagree that whether or not an attack with a klar (1d6) is a shield bash is ambiguous. That is the cause of frustration for Scott and me.
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And so, the best course of action when you're sitting down to a PFS game is to ask your GM. If they're unaware of the issue, summarize the arguments both for and against, and have them give you a ruling for that table.
This is why it's best to build your characters off of the more conservative interpretation, since you never know how your next GM will rule it. If you play with a consistent PFS group, then you can try to be more adventurous.
HERE is a nice summary from John Compton, one of the current heads of PFS, on how badly written rules are handled in Society.
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What the bird said.
People get this impression where PFS is a munchkins paradise where the DM can't say no to whatever ridiculous "argument from raw" someone can come up with.
We can.
We do.
We have.
Its easy. "NoOOOOOooooOOOOOOoooo"
A klar is a spiked shield.
A spiked shield has a virtual size increase on it already.
You will get that exact same ruling from 9/10 dms, which is a good indication you should stop bringing it up
Raw "saying" one thing does not preclude raw from "saying" another.
What the bird said.
People get this impression where PFS is a munchkins paradise where the DM can't say no to whatever ridiculous "argument from raw" someone can come up with.
We can.
We do.
We have.
Its easy. "NoOOOOOooooOOOOOOoooo"
A klar is a spiked shield.
A spiked shield has a virtual size increase on it already.
You will get that exact same ruling from 9/10 dms, which is a good indication you should stop bringing it up
Raw "saying" one thing does not preclude raw from "saying" another.
What a crazy strawman! Nobody is trying to stack spikes with bashing. We believe that the shield does 1d6 damage on a shield bash, so bashing makes that 2d6.
Pathfinder Society is 100% free to play.
Nobody is forcing you to "buy the cool books". That's your decision.
And "conservative" is in the eyes of the Beholder. All I'm suggesting is that you plan to encounter some Lawful Neutral multi-eyed aberrations. Otherwise, you may be stuck playing a Pregen.
The store I go to charges per person per scenario, so I do pay for PFS.
Also, Scott, I wouldn't have the patience to do what you do. If I make a character I don't want it to take months to level them up because at ~50% of tables he is nerfed and I have to pick someone else.
The solution, "just check with the gm" like Nefreet and John Compton suggested doesn't work for all people. IMO better to treat highly contested items as if they didn't exist.
Yo das bier please respond to my previous comment.
Also, guys, please don't debate what a klar is or is not in this thread. You can't change anyone's mind. What we can do is pick a scenario and run with it. Even someone like Scott who disagrees with the scenario I chose completely can still brainstorm its implications.
IF you read my post two above yours, I answered both your questions.
1) The Klar is a weapon, and can't benefit from shield enhancements. If you bash with it, the shield portion of it can benefit from shield enhancements.
2) The Klar specifically says if you bash with it, treat it as a light spiked shield. Bashing is an attack with a shield, by default. Attempting to redefine that is not winning you any points.
i.e. the arguments here are coming down to 'english arguments', and that's always a bad, bad sign of trying to exploit loopholes.
As for defining the Klar:
It's a one handed weapon, not a shield. It's not listed in the armor/shield tables, it's only listed in the weapon tables.
It's treated as a light spiked shield IF YOU BASH WITH IT. Othewise, it just provides +1 shield AC.
It's default is that it is a d6 slashing weapon that provides +1 shield AC. If you do NOTHING with the Klar, that's what it is.
If you want to do some WEIRD with the Klar, you can instead bash with it for d4 piercing damage...the damage of a light spiked shield. You're doing a shield bash.
Attempting to redefine the Klar as a shield instead of a weapon to cater to making it an imbalanced weapon should already be setting off alarm bells.
Directly contradicting the written description of the Klar when used to bash with the very different damage of it when defaulting to weapon use should also set off alarm bells, arguing about 'the Klar is different', and all that, to cater to it being a special snowflake.
It just doesn't fly.
Gah, Klar threads. Kowtow, yoU!
Yo das bier please respond to my previous comment.
Also, guys, please don't debate what a klar is or is not in this thread. You can't change anyone's mind. What we can do is pick a scenario and run with it. Even someone like Scott who disagrees with the scenario I chose completely can still brainstorm its implications.
IF you read my post two above yours, I answered both your questions.
1) The Klar is a weapon, and can't benefit from shield enhancements. If you bash with it, the shield portion of it can benefit from shield enhancements.
2) The Klar specifically says if you bash with it, treat it as a light spiked shield. Bashing is an attack with a shield, by default. Attempting to redefine that is not winning you any points.
i.e. the arguments here are coming down to 'english arguments', and that's always a bad, bad sign of trying to exploit loopholes.
As for defining the Klar:
It's a one handed weapon, not a shield. It's not listed in the armor/shield tables, it's only listed in the weapon tables.
It's treated as a light spiked shield IF YOU BASH WITH IT. Othewise, it just provides +1 shield AC.
It's default is that it is a d6 slashing weapon that provides +1 shield AC. If you do NOTHING with the Klar, that's what it is.
If you want to do some WEIRD with the Klar, you can instead bash with it for d4 piercing damage...the damage of a light spiked shield. You're doing a shield bash.
Attempting to redefine the Klar as a shield instead of a weapon to cater to making it an imbalanced weapon should already be setting off alarm bells.
Directly contradicting the written description of the Klar when used to bash with the very different damage of it when defaulting to weapon use should also set off alarm bells, arguing about 'the Klar is different', and all that, to cater to it being a special snowflake.
It just doesn't fly.
Gah, Klar threads. Kowtow, yoU!
Hoboy.
1.) A klar is a shield. Its description says so. "Treat a klar as a light spiked shield." Not, "Treat a klar as a light spiked shield for the purpose of making a shield bash with it.
2.) Find me where the rules say this, because they don't. (The first part that is, about where the klar specifically says......)
Also, why do you say that the klar does not appear in the shields table? It does. Im looking at it in my book right now. Ultimate equipment, p. 9. (Under shields)
How in the world does this come down to an english argument? Because Nefreet mentioned it? Why hold his argument agains me?
Please give me some convincing evidence that the 1d6 attack is not affected by bashing because you are currently using the argument, "A klar is not a shield."
You might say I have burden of proof, but I feel my evidence is solid. A klar is a shield, bashing may be put on a shield, and is in no way limited to affecting a shield bash attack. What is the difference between a +1 weapon enchantment on the shield and a bashing enchantment on a shield? Both increase damage universally. Either both work on the 1d6 attack or neither work. You stated you believe the first works.
I'm not sure what I'm more upset about:
The fact that we lost a whole slew of items to the recent Ultimate Equipment errata, or that Klars weren't included in it.
To add on to that, let's include Throwing Shields too.
By the current rules, they're a template you can apply to any Light or Heavy shield (as it's a flat cost added to the crafting of any given shield). Hell, even Bucklers could be Throwing Shields, since only Tower Shields are excluded, and therefore by extension, Klars and Madus can as well.
So not only can you TWF with your single Klar (making it a Double weapon without it actually being a Double weapon), you can also throw it, for the same amount of damage. Let's also not take into consideration that because it alters the weapon to become Exotic, therefore if you aren't proficient in Throwing Shields, you suffer a -4 penalty to attack with it in ranged as well as melee.
That's nearly as big of a mess as the Klar.
Hoboy.
1.) A klar is a shield. Its description says so. "Treat a klar as a light spiked shield." Not, "Treat a klar as a light spiked shield for the purpose of making a shield bash with it."
2.) Find me where the rules say this, because they don't. (The first part that is, about where the klar specifically says......)
Also, why do you say that the klar does not appear in the shields table? It does. Im looking at it in my book right now. Ultimate equipment, p. 9. (Under shields)
How in the world does this come down to an english argument? Because Nefreet mentioned it? Why hold his argument agains me?
Please give me some convincing evidence that the 1d6 attack is not affected by bashing because you are currently using the argument, "A klar is not a shield."
You might say I have burden of proof, but I feel my evidence is solid. A klar is a shield, bashing may be put on a shield, and is in no way limited to affecting a shield bash attack. What is the difference between a +1 weapon enchantment on the shield and a bashing enchantment on a shield? Both increase damage universally. Either both work on the 1d6 attack or neither work. You stated you believe the first works.
So then at your table, you would allow Throwing Klars? And the ability to TWF with a single Klar (even when it's not a Double weapon), attacking with it both as a shield and as its own unique weapon, because apparently it can attack both as a weapon and as a shield, at the same time? Any mode of attack dealing 2D6 points of damage? Oh, and don't forget Rapid Shot and Manyshot and all of those fun jazzy things if you go Ranged. Plus, you can get Dexterity to Attack and Damage. And it's a one-handed weapon, no less.
You see how unbalanced and incoherent that weapon sounds? Because if not, congratulations, the only reason it's not picked over any other weapon at this point is because A. It's martial (or exotic, depending on how you make it), meaning not everybody can use it, though anyone who plans to be a martial probably will invest for it, and B. Its critical multiplier is complete crap, especially if you want to be a crit-fisher, which most Dexterity-based TWF/multiattack characters have to do to compete.
Otherwise? You just made every single other weapon's damage dice, sans a Large Bastard Sword, absolutely trivialized. You also broke the need for Double weapons, ranged weapons, basically any weapon that doesn't supersede the above credentials that might tip the scales towards their favor. Optimizationally speaking, it's not really that big of a difference, to which point, that's money well spent (or possibly even overspent).
But objectively speaking, and from a Devs point of view? Throwing Klars and being able to TWF with a Single Klar for Greatsword damage on each, meaning you could pick up 2 Klars, MWF with them, and get an absolutely abysmal number of attacks (or pick up Rapid Shot, Manyshot, et. al. for ranged opportunities), and with your flat modifiers deal more damage than any other weapon possible, is obviously not intended to work by the rules.
So, while Das Bier didn't get his point across, it still stands, but on different pillars; the Bashing property isn't intended to apply to effects that aren't Shield Bashes.
James Jacobs, the designer behind the Klar's mechanics, says so here.
If you make a klar a bashing weapon, you basically do nothing but give yourself a new attack option. The bashing quality enhances your shield bash attack with a klar, but does nothing for the klar's blade. Likewise, adding bashing to a shield with spikes does nothing to the shield spike damage, since bashing is a shield magic quality and spikes are not shields, but are in fact weapons.
The only thing he gets wrong in that quote is stating that Shield Spikes are their own, unique weapons. Except they're not, according to the rules, since they cannot be attacked with by themselves (besides as improvised weapons, which aren't true weapons), cannot be enhanced separately (Armor Spikes can though), and when they're applied to a Shield, they technically become a separate item.
Otherwise, he admits that:
1. The Bashing Property only applies to Shield Bashes, and not any other form of attack.
2. The Klar has two forms of attack, one is as a Light Spiked Shield, the other is with a blade, as noted on the item's description.
Therefore, from these conclusions we can draw that:
A. The Klar's entry, due to it not matching the form of attack that a typical Light Spiked Shield is supposed to apply to, which James Jacobs admitted to there being, tells us that it applies to the Klar's blade, not the Shield Bash damage.
B. Because it's a Light Spiked Shield, according to the description and the FAQ based on size bonuses of the same type (effective versus actual) not stacking, it would simply raise the Shield Bash damage an additional step, to 1D6 Piercing.
Granted, he isn't a rules guy, meaning he shouldn't normally be trusted, I do give him special credence here, since he's the one who designed the Klar, and therefore has unique insight as to how it's supposed to function.
JJ is a creative director, not a game designer.
The Klar is a light spiked shield that does 1d6 slashing damage instead of 1d4 piercing damage and is martial rather than light.
That is all the shield says it does in its entry. So that's... all it is. Nothing more or less. You can invent all of these extra effects for your weapons of course for home games, but houserules are really beyond the scope of the rules forum.
All of this noise about 'double weapons that aren't double weapons' is just that, noise, because that's not in line with the mechanics of the weapons (and probably doesn't hold up in scrutiny even if we make all of these weird assumptions).
Bashing doesn't work with the Klar regardless because the weapon says it counts as a spiked shield and per the FAQ you can't stack spiked and bashing. So that's a moot point anyways.
I already said he wasn't a rules guy, as evidenced by his claim that shield spikes are their own weapons. But he's still the one who designed and created the Klar. At this point, he is akin to Jason Nelson with the Bodyguard feat, in that although he isn't RAW, he is certainly RAI.
So how is it a Light Spiked Shield when it has none of the precedents of what makes a Light Spiked Shield, well, a Light Spiked Shield? Light Spiked Shields are Piercing. Every other source that involves Spikes are Piercing (such as pits and other traps). Klars are Slashing. Light Spiked Shields are 1D4. Klars are 1D6, which is the damage of a Heavy Spiked Shield, not a light one. Apples to Oranges here, so all of this talk about it being a Light Spiked Shield not only makes no sense (which is what Scott Wilhelm is usually getting at), but also isn't reflected in any way in the item's statistics.
I don't have to "invent" anything, when the other rules sets allow me to apply these benefits. Throwing Shields are a template to apply to any shield, except Tower Shields. So I can have Throwing Bucklers if I wanted, even though that's probably not intended; plus, if I can apply them to every shield, then Madus and Klars can also be Throwing Shields. It's not "noise," it's just stuff that hasn't come to light about being stupidly overpowered.
Remember the Songbird of Doom? That's not "noise," when people have constantly praised how outrageously overpowered it is when combining a slew of multiple abilities and items and feats from numerous sources into one character that, when combined and shown the light of day, becomes nearly unbeatable. All I'm doing is repeating history, when you can apply Bashing and Shield Spikes to be dealing 3D6 points of damage in melee, with two modes of attack (which people have acknowledged existed, by the way), as well as being able to throw them for 2D6 points of damage at a respectable range, all of these capable of being SAD, via Dexterity.
So you can call it "noise" all you like, but when it shatters the fabrics of reality you've woven together for yourself, and the rules as you appear to know them, it deafens and fascinates all who listen. It's happened before, who is to say this will be any different?
Hoboy.
1.) A klar is a shield. Its description says so. "Treat a klar as a light spiked shield." Not, "Treat a klar as a light spiked shield for the purpose of making a shield bash with it."
2.) Find me where the rules say this, because they don't. (The first part that is, about where the klar specifically says......)
Also, why do you say that the klar does not appear in the shields table? It does. Im looking at it in my book right now. Ultimate equipment, p. 9. (Under shields)
How in the world does this come down to an english argument? Because Nefreet mentioned it? Why hold his argument agains me?
Please give me some convincing evidence that the 1d6 attack is not affected by bashing because you are currently using the argument, "A klar is not a shield."
You might say I have burden of proof, but I feel my evidence is solid. A klar is a shield, bashing may be put on a shield, and is in no way limited to affecting a shield bash attack. What is the difference between a +1 weapon enchantment on the shield and a bashing enchantment on a shield? Both increase damage universally. Either both work on the 1d6 attack or neither work. You stated you believe the first works.
So then at your table, you would allow Throwing Klars? And the ability to TWF with a single Klar (even when it's not a Double weapon), attacking with it both as a shield and as its own unique weapon, because apparently it can attack both as a weapon and as a shield, at the same time? Any mode of attack dealing 2D6 points of damage? Oh, and don't forget Rapid Shot and Manyshot and all of those fun jazzy things if you go Ranged. Plus, you can get Dexterity to Attack and Damage. And it's a one-handed weapon, no less.
You see how unbalanced and incoherent that weapon sounds? Because if not, congratulations, the only reason it's not picked over any other weapon at this point is because A. It's martial (or exotic, depending on how you make it), meaning not everybody can use it, though anyone who plans...
I will respond to your paragraphs by number.
1.) Throwing klars are no prob, but not twf with s single klar. The klar has only one attack, so no TWF. Also, I don't understand your comment about rapid shot and multishot. Do you have a way of throwing more than 2 klars in a round? Also, dex to hit and damage sounds like a +1 bashing, throwing / +1 agile klar. So someone spends 16k gold per klar to have it deal 2d6 + dex is fine, and not even that powerful. (Plus EWP feat)
EDIT: Manyshot additionally only work with a bow.
2.) I'm assuming at this point I've mossed something, because thst weapon you just described seems downright bad. Melee fighters aren't dead at this point.
3.) same as number 2. It sounds like I can spend 16k and a feat to do 2d6 + dex with a klar or no feats and 50gp to do it with a sword. Ok, so the range is 5 ft less. I'm ok with this because we haven't spend 16k gp on it. Also, I wouldn't say matching its dice makes a GS trash. Because then a GS makes a klar trash at the same time.
4.) I'm confused about a lot of this. You say TWF with a SINGLE klar and get GS damage on EACH. Pleae explain this attack routine in more detail. If you are combining rapid shot and TWF im still OK with it. You have to pick up a truck load of feats, spend 32k gp before you come online, and take a -4 penalty on all attacks. I still see no imbalance.
What James Jacobs has said is in direct contradiction to what multiple books say about the klar. I'm holding out for an official FAQ. (Although really the item should have been completely re-done when they changed UE, what a wasted opportunity.)