Large Animal Companions & Reach

[kuey]

I'm creating a character with an animal companion. I've searched the forums on whether large animal companions would get reach, especially bipedal ones like tyrannosaurus or deinonychus. However, other than for Apes which was confirmed by Michael Brock, the latest information I could find is inconclusive. I've read the arguments back and forth in those forums but just wanted to check if there has been any conclusive rulings that I might have missed.

This is kind of important for the build I'm thinking for my sylvan sorcerer. Would like an animal with reach and later the stand still feat to protect this squishy caster from melee attackers. Until he's had time to cast grease on them and hightail his way out. :) Ape is a good option (and his climb speed is useful to get to unexpected places), but would like to see what other options there are.

[Shamira]

That's a difficult one.

For most animal companions you can see if they have reach by looking at the animal they are derived from.

The Deinonychus will never get reach as it comes in small (level 1-6) or medium (level 7+)

The Tyrannosaurus has space/reach 20/20 so the animal companion at large should be 10/10.

The only discrepancy in this system is the elephant/mastodon as far as I know, which has both 15/10 (elephant) and 15/15 (mastodon).

Edit: keep in mind however that stand still does not work on reach, as the feat specifically mentions adjacent squares (and you need to make sure the companion has int 3+ ofcourse :))

[andreww]

For me I tend to look at the creature in the bestiary for reach.

So, I dont give large tigers reach and neither do Rocs (base Roc reach seems to be one step down from its size) while I allow large sized snakes reach.

It is a subject where there is a lot of potential table variation as the rules remain unclear.

[Seren's Seven]

As I understand it reach is dependent on whether you're large due to being tall or long.

For instance a large tall creature (IE A T-rex) would have reach, but a Large long creature (like a tiger) would not. The discrepancy comes from the fact that despite this rule, creatures never have it listed what sort of large (or larger) they are so it could be up to table variation based on what your GM thinks.

Edit: Here's the link to the table for it, if that helps.

Creature Reach by Size and Shape Table Thing

[Claxon]

Importantly as already mentioned, you cannot use reach with Stand Still so it will not help you to have reach if you were solely planning on it for use with that feat.

[thistledown]

Axe Beak companions have Reach+trip

[kuey]

Thanks for inputs. Didn't notice the part about adjacent squares. Then the only situation it could help is to prevent those who are already in melee with the animal companion from going off my sorcerer instead. Hmm, that's not of much use.

Will look at the axebeak. Like the idea of reach & trip.

Ah, my next session is on Tue and need to decide the companion by then.

[Quadstriker]

Large Animal Companions + PFS = Ugh.

The grid is crowded enough as it is.

Just my opinion of course.

[CigarPete]

Quadstriker wrote:

Large Animal Companions + PFS = Ugh.

The grid is crowded enough as it is.

Just my opinion of course.

Until I cast Animal Growth on my large animal companion, then it's roomy because everyone is riding the huge wolf. :-)

[Jason Wu]

Just wait til my goliath druid gets to higher levels.

My goal is the have her pet be able to carry around small villages.

-j

[Finlanderboy]

James Anderson wrote:

Axe Beak companions have Reach+trip

Axebeaks only have trip on a charge

[Lorewalker]

The problem is that reach is based on whether a creature is sized long or tall and neither does the bestiary or AC entries say whether the creatures are either. Literally the only way to check is based on the original creatures reach and extrapolating from there.

[Lorewalker]

CigarPete wrote:

Quadstriker wrote:

Large Animal Companions + PFS = Ugh.

The grid is crowded enough as it is.

Just my opinion of course.

Until I cast Animal Growth on my large animal companion, then it's roomy because everyone is riding the huge wolf. :-)

Large companion + Huge(mammoth rider) + share spells + enlarge person(from spell slots) = gargantuan companion.

Or animal growth. Depends on your casting ability.
Or the wonderous item collar that casts enlarge on the creature wearing it.

[Shamira]

Sadly a huge companion already has enough trouble getting around in a lot of PFS scenarios and modules because of 5ft wide corridors.

However, when you get in a situation you can actually let your companion grow to gargantuan (the wondrous item collar is called Dire Collar btw), it's quite satisfying to trample around.

[Lorewalker]

Shamira wrote:

Sadly a huge companion already has enough trouble getting around in a lot of PFS scenarios and modules because of 5ft wide corridors.

However, when you get in a situation you can actually let your companion grow to gargantuan (the wondrous item collar is called Dire Collar btw), it's quite satisfying to trample around.

This is what stone shape and explosives are for. ^_~

As the dwarves say... if it doesn't fit, break it until it does.

[Finlanderboy]

Shamira wrote:

Sadly a huge companion already has enough trouble getting around in a lot of PFS scenarios and modules because of 5ft wide corridors.

However, when you get in a situation you can actually let your companion grow to gargantuan (the wondrous item collar is called Dire Collar btw), it's quite satisfying to trample around.

get a belt of the weasel and compression. Now your Gargantuan can fit in those 5 corridors just fine!

[B.O.B.Johnson]

Seren's Seven wrote:

As I understand it reach is dependent on whether you're large due to being tall or long.

For instance a large tall creature (IE A T-rex) would have reach, but a Large long creature (like a tiger) would not. The discrepancy comes from the fact that despite this rule, creatures never have it listed what sort of large (or larger) they are so it could be up to table variation based on what your GM thinks.

Edit: Here's the link to the table for it, if that helps.

Creature Reach by Size and Shape Table Thing

I've prepped lots of monsters from all the bestiaries (except bestiary 5) and I haven't found that to be the case. If a creature is a size other than small and medium, every entry I have seen has always had a size/reach entry in the 'OFFENSE' section of the statblock.

Also, there are exceptions, but the general rule I've seen is that if the creature is a quadruped (IE, a horse) then it is a 'long' creature. You can usually tell whether a creature is a quadruped just by looking at it's picture or if it has an entry in its CMD like ({Base CMD}+4 vs. trip}) - IE, if the base CMD is 20, it will have an entry like CMD 20 (24 vs. trip). You also need to verify it does have Improved Trip & Greater Trip feats (as that can get you to +4 vs. trip as well).

Shamira wrote:

That's a difficult one.

For most animal companions you can see if they have reach by looking at the animal they are derived from.

The Deinonychus will never get reach as it comes in small (level 1-6) or medium (level 7+)

The Tyrannosaurus has space/reach 20/20 so the animal companion at large should be 10/10.

The only discrepancy in this system is the elephant/mastodon as far as I know, which has both 15/10 (elephant) and 15/15 (mastodon).

Edit: keep in mind however that stand still does not work on reach, as the feat specifically mentions adjacent squares (and you need to make sure the companion has int 3+ ofcourse :))

^ I only see a minor discrepancy. You can choose to have an Elephant animal companion, or you can have a Mastodon animal companion. If you choose Elephant, then at 7th lvl+ it doesn't get reach. The minor discrepancy is that the Mastodon should have it's space/reach entry as:

Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (15 ft. with gore)

So then, at 7th lvl+, your Mastodon should have:

Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with gore)

^ to understand my reasoning, you just have to read the 2nd line in the description of the Mastodon entry:

Bestiary 1 wrote:

The great mastodons are primeval cousins of elephants. Their large tusks dwarf those of regular elephants, jutting outward and then curving back toward one another at the tips.

Emphasis mine, but the text seems pretty clear to me why the Mastodon has Reach 15 ft., but the Elephant entry on the same page only has Reach 10 ft.

[Shamira]

Lorewalker wrote:

This is what stone shape and explosives are for. ^_~

As the dwarves say... if it doesn't fit, break it until it does.

I tend to use Burrow, but the duration could be longer, 6x 20 minutes at 5 ft. doesn't really get me that far.

David Hansen wrote:

<snip too much text for the poor forum>

I have a huge woolly mammoth animal companion with 15/10, due to Mammoth Rider being fairly specific in how the reach is gained and upgraded.

I like (and understand) your reasoning for changing the statblock :).

[Jason Wu]

Dang, I'm huge!

-j