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Three levels of holy tactician allows you to give all of your teammates any teamwork feat you have at the low price of one standard action. After handing out that first feat, you can swap out to any other teamwork feat you know as a swift action.
One level of the new swashbuckler archetype Guiding Blade also allows you to hand out one specific teamwork feat with a standard action and one panache.
It takes up your standard actions for two rounds, but you can give your buddies two teamwork feats. At fourth level.
If at fifth level you take a level of brawler, you can give your team any teamwork feat in the game in mid combat for a move action(martial flexibility) and a swift action to swap out the holy tactician feat.
This is PFS legal isn't it?
I'm thinking about the value of giving an already well built party the Outflank and Paired Opportunist's feats and splashing in Escape Route from time to time for easy battle field mobility.
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If at fifth level you take a level of brawler, you can give your team any teamwork feat in the game in mid combat for a move action(martial flexibility) and a swift action to swap out the holy tactician feat.
This only works if you've already activated Battlefield Presence as a standard action. Otherwise you's need a Move for Martial Flexibility and a Standard for Battlefield Presence.
Otherwise looks OK.
Note that not all useful teamwork feats are also combat feats. Escape Route is, but Stealth Synergy, for example, is not - so you can't pick it up using Martial Flexibility.
Battlefield Presence has no duration limit. You can activate it before combat and have it active. The writer of the archetype confirms that this is intended.
So if you do end up having to activate it in combat, it takes a round, presumably, just like any other ability that takes a Standard to activate.
That's kind of like asking why hour/level spells aren't Swift actions if they're going to be up all day.
That's kind of like asking why hour/level spells aren't Swift actions if they're going to be up all day.
There's a thread for that, isn't there?
;-)
EDIT: Props for thread title honesty...
Isn't there a class that allows you to teach your team members a feat by practicing with them for ten minutes, or something like that.
I can't find it now, so maybe my memory is deceiving me.
Isn't there a class that allows you to teach your team members a feat by practicing with them for ten minutes, or something like that.
I can't find it now, so maybe my memory is deceiving me.
Drill Instructor, from a cavalier archetype called Strategist. That ability is 4 levels deep and pretty terrible, honestly, unless you can expect every encounter to be in a short distance from each other. You spend 10 minutes prepping, then it lasts for 10 + 1/2 cavalier level minutes for the cost of a Challenge, as well as breaking if you go around a corner because it requires both being seen and heard.
Druman blackjacket fighters get a similar ability at level 8. 1 minute prep to share one of their teamwork feats for 1 minute/level, no cost or daily limit. You do have to stay within 30'. It'd be great if it came earlier.
Ah Serisan, I bet that's what I was thinking of. You're right. Kinda a crap ability. Thanks for finding it for me.
The blackjack ability would be cool if it wasn't so many levels deep.
I second the props for thread title honesty.
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I would also pick up a feat or trait that prevents you from being flatfooted at the beginning of combat. The trait is defensively strategist (God needs to be torag).
As I read it this allows you to already have feat in place then just switch it in combat as needed. Now you can transition from a stealth feat to a combat feat more easily.
Battlefield Presence has no duration limit. You can activate it before combat and have it active. The writer of the archetype confirms that this is intended.
Do you have a link to the writer confirming this? Very handy to show the GM to help him decide to run it that way.
Honestly, Kifaru, I figured you'd be done abusing teamwork feats with the retirement of King.
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Battlefield Presence has no duration limit. You can activate it before combat and have it active. The writer of the archetype confirms that this is intended.
This is not strictly true because it does not function when flatfooted.
"This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed or unconscious."
So without my suggestion above you lose it and have to restart it in each combat.
But does the ability actually end or just temporarily stop working when the paladin becomes flat-footed or unconscious?
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There's also the Constable cavalier archetype that basically lets you "ready an action to share your tactician feat without it counting against your daily limit". It takes a minute of prep time, then anytime within the next hour it can go off.
HERE is a build I have planned that does much the same thing.
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Honestly, Kifaru, I figured you'd be done abusing teamwork feats with the retirement of King.
Teamwork feats are a joy that should be shared with all. Consider this build the Santa Claus of teamwork feats.
Seriously though, King and Chance were all about being a destructive force and at times could hog the spotlight. This build will be all about setting others up. I'll have butterfly sting fairly early on to hand out auto-crits to the big hitters. Around 6th level this character will be able to hand out +4 or +5 bonuses on saving throws. Around 8th level I'll have an ability to essential use Opportune Parry and Riposte on attacks against teammates.
This character will buff and defend and let others do the mayhem.
I would hardly consider this stuff abuse. I mean, it "is", but it's the type of abuse everyone can get in on. Instead of stealing the show and shutting down enemies, you are helping everyone else to steal the show, and that's awesome.
This is the type of build I'd love to have on my team in a PFS game.
The only 'questionable' bit is whether feats temporarily gained by the Brawler's Martial Flexibility are really available to share with others via the Holy Tactician/Guiding Blade abilities. I'd say yes, but I could see a view that it isn't the same as actually having learned the feat.
I've wondered that myself. I considered a similar thing with my hunter build and talked to a few GMs about it. The ones I talked to thought it was OK, but I can definitely see some GMs interpreting it another way.
Sad trombone........
I just realized you can't have a Paladin of Desna, so no Butterfly Sting.
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I've looked into it before and I have to say that brawler's don't acquire the feats. They get the benefits of the feat. But at that point it's up to the GM to decide if "the benefit of the feat" is the same as "having the feat". For a home game just discuss it with your GM. For PFS I wouldn't do it.
Also pray do tell, who/what are King & Chance?
I've looked into it before and I have to say that brawler's don't acquire the feats. They get the benefits of the feat. But at that point it's up to the GM to decide if "the benefit of the feat" is the same as "having the feat". For a home game just discuss it with your GM. For PFS I wouldn't do it.
It's not a critical part of the build, but at this point I think I'll plan on throwing it in and just expect table variation.
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So if you do end up having to activate it in combat, it takes a round, presumably, just like any other ability that takes a Standard to activate.
That's kind of like asking why hour/level spells aren't Swift actions if they're going to be up all day.
Hour/level spells still have a duration, and a less than 24 hour duration to boot.
If I'm engaged in overland travel at level 4, I either need to cast Mage Armour multiple times, use Extend Spell, or risk it not being active when we hit a random encounter. The decision to have it "up all day" so I never need to cast in combat costs me extra resources. At very low levels, it's impossible to actually have it active all the time with the resources I have. Though this becomes less of an issue at high levels, I never reach a point where one non-extended casting of Mage Armour lasts 24 hours.
If Battlefield Presence has no duration, I activate it once as a Standard Action and never have to activate it again, just change the feat as a Swift action as necessary. Unlike Mage Armour there is no reason why I would ever have to activate it in combat, unless:
Battlefield Presence has no duration limit. You can activate it before combat and have it active. The writer of the archetype confirms that this is intended.This is not strictly true because it does not function when flatfooted.
"This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed or unconscious."
So without my suggestion above you lose it and have to restart it in each combat.
This makes sense, but I think David Knott is correct that it's unclear whether the ability actually ends or is merely suppressed, and if the author intended it to be used before combat it's inconsistent with turning the ability off when flatfooted (ie in the beginning of most combats, absent an external ability).
Also pray do tell, who/what are King & Chance?
Chance was a Hunter/Rogue and King was his best buddy ape animal companion. The build focused on teamwork feats that generated attacks of opportunity. They used outflank, paired opportunists, pack flanking and broken wing gambit. On top of that Chance had a keen fortuitous weapon and King had a fortuitous amulet of mighty fists. With combat reflexes each could take between 5 and 7 AoOs a round, and at times they ran out.
It's not an uncommon build now, but when I started him most people hadn't seen the build before.
King is now retired to a farm on the hills above Absalom with a seneschal/servant to care for his every need. Chance hasn't been officially retired yet, but most likely has run off to rejoin the circus like he always wanted.
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This makes sense, but I think David Knott is correct that it's unclear whether the ability actually ends or is merely suppressed, and if the author intended it to be used before combat it's inconsistent with turning the ability off when flatfooted (ie in the beginning of most combats, absent an external ability).
In general I occam's razor rules. Consider the following. The rule lumps unconscious and flatfooted together. It also states that the "tactician can direct her allies in battle". Suggesting you have to be actively doing it for the effect to occur.
Now look at the language for activation.
"granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action "
If an ally does not have currently have a feat it is a standard action to give it to them. This applies if they were out of range and have come into range, you are flatfooted, or you were unconscious. So, even if the ability just becomes in active for a round you still need a standard action to give them back the feat.
Going off of what it replaces I'd assume it's simply suppressed. (and is my assumption for my build). It's basically "aura of teamwork" instead of "aura of courage".
That is kinda how I interpret it too. The "does not function" bit I assumed was a temporary interruption. Otherwise it should probably say something like "becoming flatfooted or unconscious ends this ability".
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Going off of what it replaces I'd assume it's simply suppressed. (and is my assumption for my build). It's basically "aura of teamwork" instead of "aura of courage".That is kinda how I interpret it too. The "does not function" bit I assumed was a temporary interruption. Otherwise it should probably say something like "becoming flatfooted or unconscious ends this ability".
As written you still need a standard action to give it back to them. If your GM is cool with it great. For PFS I always take the most literal conservative reading so I never have problems. I would just grab the trait and not have any controversy. The god choice necessary may not work with your character concept.
But, I'm admittedly overly careful.
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Also pray do tell, who/what are King & Chance?Chance was a Hunter/Rogue and King was his best buddy ape animal companion. The build focused on teamwork feats that generated attacks of opportunity. They used outflank, paired opportunists, pack flanking and broken wing gambit. On top of that Chance had a keen fortuitous weapon and King had a fortuitous amulet of mighty fists. With combat reflexes each could take between 5 and 7 AoOs a round, and at times they ran out.
It's not an uncommon build now, but when I started him most people hadn't seen the build before.
King is now retired to a farm on the hills above Absalom with a seneschal/servant to care for his every need. Chance hasn't been officially retired yet, but most likely has run off to rejoin the circus like he always wanted.
I'm curious when you started it. I used a worg for mine and had a menacing AoMFs on my companion. My worg had Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, and Vicious Stomp to pair up with those to also trigger AoOs. I'm up to 7 teamwork feats at lvl 9 and that's only because I ran out of good ones to take (Paired Opportunists, Pack Flanking, Broken Wing Gambit, Outflank, Precise Strike, Tandem Trip, Shake it Off).
I'm curious when you started it.
I started planning out the build in the fall of 2014, but I don't get to play very often so it didn't reach effective levels, around level 5 or 6, for almost a year. He only has 6 teamwork feats at level 10.
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Using two standard actions to setup teamwork feats certainly isn't abuse since you aren't doing anything offensive with those turns. Having said that, I like the build: making your party members more effective is always fun. I have an 8th level PFS bard (a very simple build) that hands out +6 to hit and +5 damage with one round of buffing (Haste + Inspire Courage + Flagbearer + Banner of the Ancient Kings). He makes any melee or archer build an absolute monster - especially flurrying monks and TWFers - and that is a ton of fun!
So, I was taking a closer look at the Guiding Blade archetype and it says "She can use this ability multiple times to grant multiple teamwork feats."
So if I just stick with swashbuckler, I can avoid messing around with multiclassing. I can get some of the cool stuff swashbucklers get later on like weapon training and, best of all, at seventh level I can start handing out teamwork feats as a swift action.
As a bonus, I'll be able to take Butterfly's Sting, because I won't have to take paladin levels.
On the downside, I will have less flexibility as to what feats I can hand out because the Guiding Blade only allows you to share the teamwork feats that you pick up with the class feature. Each shared feat also costs a point of panache, so there is the issue of running out of panache.
In addition, I'll miss out on the good save buffs that come from being a paladin with a high charisma.
I was pretty set on the concept for my build, but now I am torn: Straight Guiding Blade Swashbuckler, or Multiclass with Tactician Paladin?
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The Holy Tactician can grant a teamwork feat indefinitely and never runs out of 'uses' of the ability. No other class/archetype has that kind of unlimited supply. So I'd say that's the question... is it worth a three level dip to ALWAYS have a teamwork feat (from any source) shared?
Plus smite (well, a weaker smite but it also grants a bonus to allies if you hit), access to paladin spell list (wands and/or scrolls (bless weapon would go really well with a teamwork build for crits)), charisma to saves, lay on hands and a mercy.
Another thing to consider is the Battle Scion skald archetype. At first level in PFS they get extra performance so that helps counteract that their "teamwork song" takes 2 uses per round instead of just one. The only bad thing about this archetype is that for the teamwork feats they share, their teammates have to actually meet the prereq for it which makes it harder to have more fun. But lingering performance could also help with duration if you find yourself running out of rage and at level 7 it's also a swift action to activate.
I'm convinced. I'll stick with the multiclassing into paladin option.
I was also just thinking, if I do the one level dip into brawler, I could take the wild child archetype. Then I would qualify for pack flanking. When I get my fourth level of Guiding Blade, I will be able to hand out Outflank, Pack Flanking, and Paired Opportunist to the entire party. It's like a melee fantasy come true.
Ah, good catch. They would all have pack flanking with the animal companion, but not with each other. It was just too good to be true.
Yep, I soon as I posted it, I thought that.