I'm a GM about to start what I hope to be a long term campaign with my friends, and one has asked to work towards the creation of this spell...
Reality Ripple
School universal; Level sorcerer/wizard 4; Subdomain construct 4
CASTINGCasting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (gemstones total worth 500 gp)
EFFECTRange see text
Target, Effect, Area see text
Duration see text
Saving Throw none, see text; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
A reality ripple lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a reality ripple can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 3th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 2th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 2th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 1th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
Undo the harmful effects of ability damage.
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or rolling twice and taking the lower result taking on its next saving throw.A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DC is for a 4th-level spell. When a reality ripple spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 500 gp worth of gemstones for this spell).
For reference, the player is playing a cross-blooded sage/elemental sorcerer, and has (to my worry) asked if this spell would work towards magic item crafting requirements.
I am conditionally allowing him to work towards this spells creation, as the goal for his character, as long as he first gains the ability to cast it before he starts research.
My request is for an analysis of the spell, in case I missed a loophole, and advice regarding how I might handle the player, his character, and the spell should it become overpowered in the game?
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Your player wants a lvl7 caster to have the same kind of versatility that a caster attains at level 13. Just say No and save yourself lots of trouble
Else, lower all duplication by 1 level (ie, lowest is cantrip and highest is 2nd level) and forbid its use for crafting requirements.
Also no undoing harmful effects and no automatically hitting.
Are you as GM happy with the flexibility that this provides to a class with a 'built in' flexibility limiter in the shape of 'spells known?'
I am aware of that particular issue. I think the flexibility may be a suitable reward for completing a story arc, thus I am tying it into the campaign itself. Hopefully.
Gemstones worth 500g become largely irrelevant with the Blood Money spell. Food for thought.
This is why I turned to the boards. THIS. Thank you for spotting that loophole. I will probably consider making the spell require a material focus as well. A big ole mcguffin. That should help negate this loophole.
The whole crafting requirements/spells issue shouldn't be a concern, as the need for the spell whilst crafting is avoided by adding +5DC to the (easy when taking 10) spellcraft check: if your home game deviates in some way from this, then the additional flexibility for crafting is a significant benefit.
Good tips to remember.
Am assuming the construct domain is to bring it in line with limited wish (at Construct 7). For me, the Construct 7 version is intended to grant access to construct construction wizard spells - Reality Ripple wouldn't have that effect. I wouldn't add Construct 4 for this spell - the existing minor creation at level 4 is thematic and sufficient.
I'm lost here. Can you enlighten me as to what this means?
The 'any other effect' has a bad/potentially overpowered example - limited wish states that a creature automatically hitting on its next attack is an example of a Limited Wish effect. Perhaps an attack reroll instead as an example for this lower level spell?
agreed. I'll need to think about this particular bit.
Save DC should be of the copied spell.
Agreed.
Hope this helps.
It so does. Thanks a bunch.
This is very similar to the old Rary's mnemonic enhancer spell, which let you reuse a spell you had already cast.
I noted the similarity with the player at the time.
That said, this version is actually much more powerful in two ways.
Agreed.
One, it lets you duplicate any spell of a lower level so long as it isn't of an opposition school. That makes this spell massively flexible in power. I doubt any sorcerer wouldn't take this spell just for that.
Making the spell require a unique focus component will probably help to make the spell seem special, as well as dampen it's virulent spread to all sorcerers. I'm planning on making it something relevant to my campaigns story.
Second, the save DC is as a 4th level spell. It should only be that of the spell it is dubbing. Much in the way that metamagics feats alter the level of the spell they are modifying but don't increase the DC.
Agreed, and already implemented.
I think you need to remove the "undo harmful effects" and "Produce any effect" abilities. That gives the spell even more flexibility (thus making it more powerful) and that last one could end up causing shouting matches about how "powerful" and effect is and how it compares to other effects.
It will definitely require more thought. Thankfully I have some time before this enters play, to work at it.
Hmmm, that Blood Money spell is grotesquely overpowered. If any player ever tried bringing it to the table the GM would ban it in an instant.
My favorite is blood transcription myself. XP
Also reminds me of the time I used a 3PP cantrip known as "laser pointer" to aim before firing my Disintegrate spell . Ah, those were the days.
Your player wants a lvl7 caster to have the same kind of versatility that a caster attains at level 13. Just say No and save yourself lots of trouble
Else, lower all duplication by 1 level (ie, lowest is cantrip and highest is 2nd level) and forbid its use for crafting requirements.
Also no undoing harmful effects and no automatically hitting.
I could say no, but then the Player would, admittedly, scrap his character and start over (for the fourth time). My hope is that by making the spells creation part of the story, and tying it directly to the campaign arc by making an important mcguffin it's focus, the spell will become his reward for completing the arc, and act as a plot thread for later. As for your tips on the spell itself, I shall certainly give each some thought. Thanks again for your advice.
It's a lower level version of limited wish.
No just no.
If you allow it, I would second to scrap the "Produce any other effect". The spell really doesn't need any more versatility than it already has and determining whether an effect is of a similar power level is a huge headache. In any case, definitely do not allow the "automatically hit on your next attack" part. That particular bit was yanked right out of Limited Wish, an effect generated by a 7th level spell.
I'm lost here. Can you enlighten me as to what this means?Sorry for the confusion - The first line of 'Reality Ripple' notes it as 'Construct 4', as well as Sorceror/Wizard 4. 'Construct 4' means that it would replace 'Minor Creation' in the 'Construct' Subdomain for divine casters:
e.g. If I had a cleric with the 'construct' subdomain, I'd receive this spell instead of 'Minor Creation' on my domain list.
I was trying to express that Limited Wish (at Level 7 for the Construct Subdomain) appears to be intended to allow divine casters to more readily supply arcane spells (via limited wish) when doing something like building a golem; I didn't think that reality ripple (which appeared to be a lesser version of limited wish) really had a place at Level 4 in that spell list for such a hypothetical cleric.
In short, I was suggesting also removing 'Construct 4' in order to limit the spell to Sorceror/Wizard types.
Ah, thank you for the clarification. I would certainly remove it, because the spell will be unique. I'm now fairly sure my player didn't actually make this spell himself. He must have got it from somewhere.
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Compare it to Shadow Conjuration, which is:
- Also level 4
- Only mimics some subschools of conjuration spells up to level 3, not any other
- Saving throws drastically reduce the effectiveness
- Doesn't have a "and other effects" clause.
Then ask yourself if the 500gp cost is really enough to make up the difference in power between those spells.
Since this is being made as a lower-level version of Limited Wish, I would include an additional "catch". It could be one point of damage to the casting stat (preventing it stops the spell), bumping the casting time up to ten minutes, or giving it a 25% failure chance (no refund).
Ban Blood Money, obviously.
This is very similar to the old Rary's mnemonic enhancer spell, which let you reuse a spell you had already cast.
IF you'd said that this was similar to a wish spell, then I'd be on board with you. Rary's spell doesn't even come close to this function. All it did was either give you more slots to memorise at the cost of the spell slot this spell took, or let you reclaim slots in the manner of a pearl of power. Perfectly reasonable for it's cost.
Because that's essentially what this is... Baby Wish. Which I would never ever allow in any shape or form.
Quite frankly I'd tell this player to take this spell back to the drawing board.... and leave it there.
I'm perplexed by a player who would create a character who's entire concept is based on a custom and/or third party spell....I could say no, but then the Player would, admittedly, scrap his character and start over (for the fourth time). My hope is that by making the spells creation part of the story, and tying it directly to the campaign arc by making an important mcguffin it's focus, the spell will become his reward for completing the arc, and act as a plot thread for later. As for your tips on the spell itself, I shall certainly give each some thought. Thanks again for your advice.Your player wants a lvl7 caster to have the same kind of versatility that a caster attains at level 13. Just say No and save yourself lots of trouble
Else, lower all duplication by 1 level (ie, lowest is cantrip and highest is 2nd level) and forbid its use for crafting requirements.
Also no undoing harmful effects and no automatically hitting.
I took it that the player was easily bored, and this spell was a way to justify sticking with a dissatisfying sorcerer build.
I could say no, but then the Player would, admittedly, scrap his character and start over (for the fourth time). My hope is that by making the spells creation part of the story, and tying it directly to the campaign arc by making an important mcguffin it's focus, the spell will become his reward for completing the arc, and act as a plot thread for later. As for your tips on the spell itself, I shall certainly give each some thought. Thanks again for your advice.Your player wants a lvl7 caster to have the same kind of versatility that a caster attains at level 13. Just say No and save yourself lots of trouble
Else, lower all duplication by 1 level (ie, lowest is cantrip and highest is 2nd level) and forbid its use for crafting requirements.
Also no undoing harmful effects and no automatically hitting.
I'd rather have the player rebuild his character for the tenth time than give him an exploit like this.
IT's NOT a good reason to allow something this bad. Once you allow something like this kind of abuse, it's not going to get better.
I would personally tell the player to rebuild his character and to stop building around 3PP material or his own invented spells/abilities/feats and focus on building a character using approved resources.
Beyond that, if the players real goal was merely to meet the requirements to make magic items your player should know:
You can produce most magic items without actually having the required spell by increasing the spellcraft DC by 5 per prerequisite you do not meet. Scrolls, wands, and potions require that you actually expend the spell. Anything else can be crafted by increasing the spellcraft DC.
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
So I get the impression that the player knows that this is power grab, or doesn't understand the crafting rules. If he's really focused on wanting to craft then he doesn't need this spell to make things work. You can easily agree to grant him a magic item that will +5-10 on spellcraft checks to craft magic items. By the rules it only costs 10,000 gold for a +10 to all spellcraft checks (not just crafting).
But I really think he's after the blatant power grab of the spell, not just for the use it could be for crafting.
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Well, the forumites have been pretty consistent on their analysis of the spell: it's a baby wish spell and it is overpowered.
Now, the real question is "should you allow it?" The answer to that is: "we can't answer that." Not for the trite reason of "it's your world", but because you haven't told us anything about the player who wants it. I have players in my group that I would trust with this spells, ones who have shown restraint when it comes abusing powerful options. Then I have players in my group who I absolutely wouldn't trust with a spell like this, ones who almost can't help but mercilessly use the most optimal option in a given situation. There is nothing wrong with being in that second group (Lord knows, that's where I would put myself), but you need to know who you are dealing with.
Also no undoing harmful effects and no automatically hitting.I could say no, but then the Player would, admittedly, scrap his character and start over (for the fourth time).
Beyond the fact that I feel the spell is simply too powerful for many of the reasons already mentioned, I also feel very strongly that it isn't ok for your player to cajole you into submission with an ultimatum like this. Frankly, even if the spell was weak, or even detrimental, I feel you should have told him such behavior is untolerable and denied his request. A request for review is fine, backing it up with an ultimatum isn't.
As a little aside, to help you judge spells in the future, ask yourself if any character capable of casting it would take it at the very first opportunity. If the answer is 'yes' its too powerful. We have plenty of spells everybody who can cast them wants but due to good competition still don't get picked all the time. This particular spell doesn't have such competition, if you ask me.
If the spell passes that test you can look into adjusting it.
If the player starts over that's players choice, not yours.
Wasting time trying to fix a broken spell is only going to cause more headaches later on when the player will continue to ask for unreasonable things. Say no and establish some control over your game and the player.
If he has to have this spell or he scraps his character, my best guess without knowing you or your player is, he knows it's overpowered and is trying to pull a fast one on you.
Just say No.
So you basically got told "If I can't use this I won't play this character?"
Ha. Yeah, I'd say "No problem, make another one."
I wouldn't allow it, due to a number of different ways it can be used in a 'broken' way.
Some of them have already been posted but another is it's Casting Time vs the Casting Time of the spell being 'replaced'. There's a number of Full Round and longer spells this could be of serious use for.
The same could be said for the likes of, say, Limited Wish, and Mass Enlarge Person, or Mass Cure Critical Wounds, etc. in regards to cast time.
Now, on to my answer to the OP:
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Everybody cites Blood Money, and I can't blame them for that (it is a pitfall). However, is the spell really as bad as people say it is? Even for a Sorcerer? Let's take a closer look.
First, it requires a 4th level spell slot. Second, it requires 500 gold allocated to a specific material, or, if casting Blood Money, 2 Strength damage. This is per casting, so if he's repeatedly using it, that Strength damage will add up, and if he uses too much against the likes of, say, a Shadow Demon, he's gonna regret it.
Second, in the later levels, it's going to be eating up his Swift Action that he could be using for Quickened Spells, and by that point he will have more effective things to use in most combats than 4th level spell slots. Granted, he'll be making more use of his lower spell slots, it's still not exactly a peachy combination to be up in arms about.
Third, if he's a spellcasting sorcerer attempting to use Blood Money, he either dumped his Strength, has average Strength, or even at best, a 13 Strength. Even with it being as high as that, he won't have that much Strength to burn, meaning he can only use it sparingly, just as any Wish spell should.
Lastly, let's consider some of the most powerful things he can cast with it: Dimension Door, some Ice Storm spell, Haste, Lesser Simulacrum, Lesser Geas....yeah, I'm not seeing anything extremely overbearing here.
That being said, I'd consider raising the spell component cost as well as removing the whole "minimum material cost negated" clause if it's supposed to have that much flexibility. Even raising it to 1,000 gold will shore up the concerns for Blood Money, and plus would fit some extremely powerful game-changing spells like Reincarnate in terms of material cost (so if he wanted to cast it, that'd be 2,000 gold he has to come up with on the spot).
Just popping in to add my voice to the consensus that I'd never allow this spell at my table, and I'm pretty confident that everyone in my group (many of whom also DM) would agree that it's out of whack power-wise.
Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation are the spells I'd be looking at if I wanted this kind of effect for a character.
Haha, F*#& no.
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This spell covers over a half dozen different schools of magic, and also allows you to escape past the boundaries of your class' spell list.
Its closest equivilants (other than wish- we'll get to that in a moment) are shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, each of which covers a single school, and they have major drawbacks since they aren't 'real' (ie- they might have reduced effect on a will save). Admittedly, that disadvantage could be turned into an advantage (ie- abdundant ammunition that can make arrows that shoot through walls since the walls don't fall for illusions).
I can see a way to do something VAGUELY similar by simply allowing more schools to have a 'shadow' spell. IE- Shadow Illusion, Shadow Divination, Shadow Necromancy...
Shadow Conjuration and Evocation are fairly balanced, since they trade higher spell levels and a weakness in return for high versatility that overturns concepts like 'spells known' or 'spellbooks'. Having like... 8 different versions of this spell helps to balance itself out (ie- sure, you can pick out any spell from your list at will... but you need to spend 8 spells known, and they are weaker than just having the spell itself).
The shadow spells are fine. But I always hated wish- I could see it as fine if it was a ritual thing requiring hours to set up (ie- there for those special solution spells for things like permanent status conditions). But instant power at just a bottom line price... yeah, no, never sat right with me. Adding more versions of wish probably won't help you at all. Particularly not a lower version that costs the same as a drop in the bucket at higher levels.
I would recommend you not allow it. If the player has a problem with that, fine. Limited Wish and Wish are very powerful. That level of reality warping is for high level casters, in my opinion. This spell is too good.
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I've talked with the player in question, and have worked out a solution that I think works for my campaign. I'm popping in now because I don't want to leave the thread hanging without some kind of reply to everyone, since you were kind enough to give your advice.
The solution we agreed on was to take all 5 of the universal magic spells (Prestidigitation on up to Wish) along with his Reality Ripple, and rework them into rituals like the ones outlined in 'Occult Adventures'.
There are several mechanical benefits to this, I think.
1. This way, they are removed from being chosen as spells for his character, but their discovery and use can still be a plot point for my campaign. One shareable by the entire party even.
2. As rituals they can't be quickened or have blood money applied to them, thus keeping their power level relatively easy to measure in-game.
3. While rituals can technically be cast by anyone, they also have a consequence for failure. XD Hehehe
4. This solution doesn't necessarily keep clerics from casting Miracle, nor stop Genies from granting supernatural wishes. Mortal's will just be required to discover the ancient knowledge first.
Thanks again to everyone who popped in to comment and give recommendations, they have all been very helpful. I read each one and gave them equal weight when making my decision. Wish me luck with my campaign, and I hope you all have a great day!
I've talked with the player in question, and have worked out a solution that I think works for my campaign. I'm popping in now because I don't want to leave the thread hanging without some kind of reply to everyone, since you were kind enough to give your advice.
The solution we agreed on was to take all 5 of the universal magic spells (Prestidigitation on up to Wish) along with his Reality Ripple, and rework them into rituals like the ones outlined in 'Occult Adventures'.
There are several mechanical benefits to this, I think.
1. This way, they are removed from being chosen as spells for his character, but their discovery and use can still be a plot point for my campaign. One shareable by the entire party even.
2. As rituals they can't be quickened or have blood money applied to them, thus keeping their power level relatively easy to measure in-game.
3. While rituals can technically be cast by anyone, they also have a consequence for failure. XD Hehehe
4. This solution doesn't necessarily keep clerics from casting Miracle, nor stop Genies from granting supernatural wishes. Mortal's will just be required to discover the ancient knowledge first.Thanks again to everyone who popped in to comment and give recommendations, they have all been very helpful. I read each one and gave them equal weight when making my decision. Wish me luck with my campaign, and I hope you all have a great day!
Yeah, that sounds about right.
And even adds some flavor too. Having your wish work better because it is subsidized by a god to make it more reliable makes sense (same general logic of why the undead creation spells come at lower levels for clerics). Meanwhile, the purely mortal means of doing the same thing, they can have terrible consequences.
That is a really interesting concept. Bravo!